Future of 22x Units

[anamyd]

Virgin's plan for open access uses 221s.

How many of them, and since when...?

 

[Energy]

How many of them, and since when...?

Don't know and don't know, I remember reading 221 in the thing they submitted though.

 

[anamyd]

Don't know and don't know, I remember reading 221 in the thing they submitted though.

Do you know where the thing can be viewed...?

 

[greatvoyager]

Do you know where the thing can be viewed...?

This is the application
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...s-limited-daft-track-access-contract-form.pdf
There is a thread on here somewhere too, but can't find it.

 

[anamyd]

This is the application
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...s-limited-daft-track-access-contract-form.pdf
There is a thread on here somewhere too, but can't find it.

Interesting! I'm guessing that Virgin wouldn't need all 20 221s (although all services would usually use 10-car trains formed of double pairings of units, so maybe...?), and that any left over would go to CrossCountry…? I understand that what will be the ex-EMR 222s would also go to CrossCountry, and all this around December 2022...?

Also, sorry if this has already been mentioned, but if CrossCountry do end up operating the 222s and the extra 221s, I'm guessing that they'll be changed to be as similar to the existing 220s and 221s as possible...? If it does happen, I'm guessing that they'll have to usually use Voyagers on some services and Meridians on others, as they'd have to list them on their website as the two different brands of trains they are, not least because there are 7-car Meridians...?

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting! I'm guessing that Virgin won't need all 20 221s, and that any left over would go to CrossCountry…? Also, I understand that what will be the ex-EMR would also go to CrossCountry, and all this around December 2022...?

Transfer of anything to XC, although obvious and logical, is nothing more than forum speculation at this stage. To the best of my knowledge, nothing official has been published about destinations for either spare 221s from WC, or spare 222s from EMR.
(Even though it’s been discussed in 2 or 3 speculative threads for a few months...)

 

[GNER 91128]

I'm late to this particular party (thread) but I'd have them on the Stanstead to Birmingham NS route instead of the ghastly 170s. Sure you may be wasting a 125mph capable unit where it couldn't be fully utilised; but oh well! Then I'd also want to extend the service to International as well so just as well this is speculative ideas!

 

[Aictos]

I'm late to this particular party (thread) but I'd have them on the Stanstead to Birmingham NS route instead of the ghastly 170s. Sure you may be wasting a 125mph capable unit where it couldn't be fully utilised; but oh well! Then I'd also want to extend the service to International as well so just as well this is speculative ideas!

Nothing wrong with the Class 170s apart from Leicester to Stansted Airport being hourly so get very busy!

Nothing that a a cascade of 170s to XC and extending the Leicester stopper to Peterborough can’t resolve.

 

[anamyd]

Nothing wrong with the Class 170s apart from Leicester to Stansted Airport being hourly so get very busy!

Nothing that a a cascade of 170s to XC and extending the Leicester stopper to Peterborough can’t resolve.

As far as I know, after WMR's new 196s enter service this year or next, the centre cars are going to be removed from the 6 WMR 170/6s and inserted into XC's 6 170/5s, but where are you thinking any additional whole 170 units for XC will come from...? I ask this because the 170 allocation will be 29 with XC, 12 with TfW, 16 with Northern, about 35 with ScotRail and 28 with EMR (not including the ones that are currently Southern 171s), which adds up to the roughly 120 170s that are currently 170s (as opposed to the former 170s that are now some of the 168s/171s, or the "170s-to-be" for EMR that are currently 171s) and doesn't leave any left that could go to XC...?

 

[tbtc]

I'm late to this particular party (thread) but I'd have them on the Stanstead to Birmingham NS route instead of the ghastly 170s. Sure you may be wasting a 125mph capable unit where it couldn't be fully utilised; but oh well! Then I'd also want to extend the service to International as well so just as well this is speculative ideas!

Welcome to the party!

The problem with the suggestion is that the XC services use the bay platform at Stansted which is too short to accommodate more than the current 170s - and the Stansted Express services are too long to swap away from the current longer platforms, so XC are stuck with the shorter platform.

Personally, I think that there are going to be a number of 100mph DMUs on the second hand market shortly (175s, 185s, possibly some more 170s, so it'd be better to focus the 125mph Voyagers/Meridians on the core XC network where they are most needed (and those services are timed for fast accelerating 125mph stock, which is why you can't just dump old HSTs on them).

Ideally, everything in the "core" (say York/Manchester to Reading/Bristol) should be at least seven coaches (single units) or eight (doubled up), with the potential for shorter trains at the extreme due to splitting (I'm not saying that *nobody* uses XC all the way to Bournemouth/ Penzance/ Aberdeen, just that there are other TOCs who should be dealing with those markets, so XC should focus more of their resources on the York/Manchester to Reading/Bristol sections.

 

[anamyd]

possibly some more 170s

where would they come from...? (post 667...)

 

[Energy]

where would they come from...? (post 667...)

Doesn't look like anyone wants to give up any turbostars!

 

[Aictos]

As far as I know, after WMR's new 196s enter service this year or next, the centre cars are going to be removed from the 6 WMR 170/6s and inserted into XC's 6 170/5s, but where are you thinking any additional whole 170 units for XC will come from...? I ask this because the 170 allocation will be 29 with XC, 12 with TfW, 16 with Northern, about 35 with ScotRail and 28 with EMR (not including the ones that are currently Southern 171s), which adds up to the roughly 120 170s that are currently 170s (as opposed to the former 170s that are now some of the 168s/171s, or the "170s-to-be" for EMR that are currently 171s) and doesn't leave any left that could go to XC...?

Northern and TfW are both getting CAFs so cascade the 170s currently as locates to them to XC and order more CAFs to replace the 170s, all TOCs benefit from a standardised fleet so everyone is a winner.

 

[VT 390]

I'm late to this particular party (thread) but I'd have them on the Stanstead to Birmingham NS route instead of the ghastly 170s. Sure you may be wasting a 125mph capable unit where it couldn't be fully utilised; but oh well! Then I'd also want to extend the service to International as well so just as well this is speculative ideas!

Another issue with Voyagers on this route (and possible the Nottingham's) is that having trains with end doors would not be a good thing as they are more local journeys than XC, especially at the Birmingham end at peak times, so having end door stock would probably increase dwell times and there would be less standing space, which is needed out of Birmingham at peak times.

 

[Energy]

Northern and TfW are both getting CAFs so cascade the 170s currently as locates to them to XC and order more CAFs to replace the 170s, all TOCs benefit from a standardised fleet so everyone is a winner.

I don't think XC should be top of the waiting list for 170s though, I would argue that the regional routes should be getting voyagers (or something similar, voyagers are just an example, I know there aren't enough unless they replace some of the 170s with voyagers from Avanti), such as the Stansted service. Higher up the list are Chiltern and EMR and if enough are free, maybe GWR.

I doubt Northern will let theirs go, Northern don't have lots to spend on trains and 170s are good trains which can fit in Northern's budget.

 

[Meerkat]

I doubt Northern will let theirs go, Northern don't have lots to spend on trains and 170s are good trains which can fit in Northern's budget.

Northern could take the 175s to release 170s
The 22Xs could be saved by a shortage of newer DMUs and a reluctance to build new ones unless someone puts in a big bi-mode order.

 

[Energy]

Northern could take the 175s to release 170s

But would Northern let them go or just cascade them onto other routes?

 

[Meerkat]

But would Northern let them go or just cascade them onto other routes?

Northern have to do what the DfT say....

 

[swt_passenger]

Hasn’t it long been the consensus that 220/221/222 are completely unsuitable for the former Central Trains regional routes now operated by XC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hasn’t it long been the consensus that 220/221/222 are completely unsuitable for the former Central Trains regional routes now operated by XC?

I thought it had. 170s are pretty good for the route (which isn't true InterCity, but is more like a string of short regional services tacked together rather like Liverpool to Norwich), they're just too short and in a bit of a ramshackle condition. Even better would be a reshuffle of centre cars to allow them to be 4-car fully gangwayed, and a full interior refurb.

 

[greatvoyager]

Another issue with Voyagers on this route (and possible the Nottingham's) is that having trains with end doors would not be a good thing as they are more local journeys than XC, especially at the Birmingham end at peak times, so having end door stock would probably increase dwell times and there would be less standing space, which is needed out of Birmingham at peak times.

That's true, would make it more difficult for commuters.

 

[greatvoyager]

I thought it had. 170s are pretty good for the route (which isn't true InterCity, but is more like a string of short regional services tacked together rather like Liverpool to Norwich), they're just too short and in a bit of a ramshackle condition. Even better would be a reshuffle of centre cars to allow them to be 4-car fully gangwayed, and a full interior refurb.

That would be good.

 

[greatvoyager]

Northern could take the 175s to release 170s
The 22Xs could be saved by a shortage of newer DMUs and a reluctance to build new ones unless someone puts in a big bi-mode order.

22x units probably will get replaced from 2030, but I guess what happens with XC will decide their fate.

 

[Anonymous10]

Northern and TfW are both getting CAFs so cascade the 170s currently as locates to them to XC and order more CAFs to replace the 170s, all TOCs benefit from a standardised fleet so everyone is a winner.

170 will stay tho

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

22x units apparently can't run into Stansted Airport. Some sort of gauging issue / platform length issues.

Cardiff to Nottingham or even the Leicester locals perhaps though... (although the door position is wrong for regional services, the acceleration rate would easily claw back time lost at stations when boarding). Cost to run could make this a non-starter though.



Voyager and Meridian coaches are quite different so mix and matching them won't happen.



Where have you heard the XC 170s will be extended? Using what coaches? It's rumoured 1 coach from Southerns (4-car) 171s will be used to make a common pool of 3-coach 170s if/when EMR take them on.



XC should take on other Voyagers / Meridians but doubling up isn't a great idea. People on wrong sets, double the staff... better to scrap end cars and form a common length fleet for their remaining days as after XC are finished with them, I can't see any other operator wanting them.

XC HST set could go to Scotrail (seems a waste to have done all the modifications for it not to be used).

Scotrail could also take on some of the Voyagers or Meridians instead of their HSTs.

I was thinking exactly the same thing about the XC HST's a relatively short while ago.

I'm starting to see the realistic side of things in that as much as we all love an HST, just 5 in the fleet long term (with 2 to 4 in use each week) isn't going to work. Someone on here mentioned to me (I think) that the 20 Voyagers from Avanti would be enough to displace HST's.

When a Voyager has to run a booked HST diagram, it causes problems for passengers who need the table space - at least if the 20 Avanti Voyagers saw off enough HST's then it's the same type of train.

That's actually true - if it was me and there was enough staff, I'd run 5 x 10-car Voyager diagrams and use the other 10 x 5-car Voyagers to displace 10 4-car Voyagers to make 10 8-coach Voyagers.

The Voyagers may lack a Quiet Coach but 10-car sets have a better advantage over an HST which are...

1. 124 unreserved seats (Coach B and Coach H).

2. The trolley can serve passengers easier than on one long train.

3. If 5 fail at the right time, you can possibly just get away with using 5 coaches. Including if 5 have to terminate due to a staff shortage.

However XC retaining HST's of course will be great news!

 

[coradiafan2000]

Another issue with Voyagers on this route (and possible the Nottingham's) is that having trains with end doors would not be a good thing as they are more local journeys than XC, especially at the Birmingham end at peak times, so having end door stock would probably increase dwell times and there would be less standing space, which is needed out of Birmingham at peak times.

I may be wrong, but when it comes to the Cardiff-Nottingham route, wouldn't Voyagers be able to make use of 125mph running to make up for increased dwell time?

I'm not sure about the Birmingham to Stansted route as I have less knowledge of it.

 

[Anonymous10]

I may be wrong, but when it comes to the Cardiff-Nottingham route, wouldn't Voyagers be able to make use of 125mph running to make up for increased dwell time?

I'm not sure about the Birmingham to Stansted route as I have less knowledge of it.

Also might help capacity??

 

[coradiafan2000]

Also might help capacity??

Apparently a 4 coach Voyager has about the same capacity as a 3 coach 170. So a five coach 221/222 would be an increase. Even a 4 coach 220 is better than the two coach 170s that are annoyingly common on the route.

 

[greatvoyager]

Apparently a 4 coach Voyager has about the same capacity as a 3 coach 170. So a five coach 221/222 would be an increase. Even a 4 coach 220 is better than the two coach 170s that are annoyingly common on the route.

Very true.

 

[Anonymous10]

Apparently a 4 coach Voyager has about the same capacity as a 3 coach 170. So a five coach 221/222 would be an increase. Even a 4 coach 220 is better than the two coach 170s that are annoyingly common on the route.

Be could if cross country took them or if they take tfw 175 and redo them as a intermediate as they will be out of service in a few years