Confusion about Southern Class 313's

[Fincra5]

I don't mean to be rude, are you sure a 313 accelerates better than a 377? I don't think it does.

Well i have seen a 377 departing clapham jnc at the same time as a 455 (similar) and the 445 accelerated faster.

 

[Minstral25]

313's may be slower than 377's but there is only a short stretch of the East and West Coastway's that has a line speed of over 80mph (according to the Sussex RUS). So 75mph should be more than man enough for the coastways

 

[Fincra5]

Exactly... And the 313s are designed for short hops, such as the distances between stations on the east and west coastways.

 

[anonymous0101]

313's may be slower than 377's but there is only a short stretch of the East and West Coastway's that has a line speed of over 80mph (according to the Sussex RUS). So 75mph should be more than man enough for the coastways

I think they have trouble getting above 50 mph, nevermind getting anywhere near the official top speed of 75 mph!

 

[Metadyneman]

Most stopping trains using 377s on the East /West coastway route rarely go above 50 anyway so I don't see what the problem is. To be honest I was against these units being used on the coastway at first but having given it some thought they will be ideal. You will always get a quicker getaway with a 313 because the doors close a lot quicker and they have a much lower gear ratio than a 377 hence the faster acceleration. Perfect for a frequently stopping train with a fast turnaround of passengers as the West Worthing/Seaford lines have.

My biggest concern is that Southern don't start to use them on the Brighton Portsmouth Harbour trains which demand a bit more comfort than a 313 and most importantly.. a loo!

 

[anonymous0101]

Yes i agree the doors are quicker to close on the 313 but not that it quicker than a 377 despite its lower gearing.

 

[swt_passenger]

Southern's webiste now has a section on the 313s, I don't think it has been linked to yet. Confirms earlier info about the initial diagrams, and some details of the work to be done, which will provide an interior refresh of seats, floors etc and provision of multipurpose spaces for bikes etc.
http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-my-journey/313s
Link on that page to the pdf leaflet too...

 

[Fincra5]

The refurb looks quite good, shame there will be no tables though.

 

[Metadyneman]

For the journeys these units are booked for I doubt a table would be much use anyway. If you remember back in the good old days of the CIGs.. they had 2 x 2 seating and no tables either which didn't detract from a comfortable ride. Personally I think the tables on the 377s actually get in the way and make it really awkward to get in and out of the seat. I guess its a case of personal preference but I'm glad that not all seats on a 377 have tables. I'm a fairly large bloke and it can be a squeeze getting into/ out of the seats with a table in a hurry.

 

[Pumbaa]

Hope you noticed in the leaflet that from Dec 2010 they plan on using the 313s to Portsmouth! An extra 10 will be delivered by that time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hope you noticed in the leaflet that from Dec 2010 they plan on using the 313s to Portsmouth! An extra 10 will be delivered by that time.

I think it seems likely that it will be the stoppers from Littlehampton to Portsmouth, the Littlehampton - Bognor and the Barnham - Bognor shuttles that will become 313 operated.

 

[Fincra5]

I think it seems likely that it will be the stoppers from Littlehampton to Portsmouth, the Littlehampton - Bognor and the Barnham - Bognor shuttles that will become 313 operated.

I believe that is the plan. As far as i am aware they wont be doing Brighton-Portsmouth. Only the shorter jounreys.

 

[Minstral25]

For the journeys these units are booked for I doubt a table would be much use anyway. If you remember back in the good old days of the CIGs.. they had 2 x 2 seating and no tables either which didn't detract from a comfortable ride. Personally I think the tables on the 377s actually get in the way and make it really awkward to get in and out of the seat. I guess its a case of personal preference but I'm glad that not all seats on a 377 have tables. I'm a fairly large bloke and it can be a squeeze getting into/ out of the seats with a table in a hurry.

I disagree. I think the tables are excellent and massively improve the journey experience. On my journey I get Thameslink 319's - no tables or Southern 377's with tables.

The Southern units are much better especially when you have a coffee or paper because you can put them down. I hate travelling on the 319's because of the lack of tables and the need to balance coffee and paper means you cannot actually read the paper. Plus they put the seats closer so that your knees interfere with the person opposite much more.

As a fairly large bloke myself I find it handy to lift the seat arms on the 377s to get in and out.

Having used the 313's I don't think they could fit tables

 

[Metadyneman]

I disagree. I think the tables are excellent and massively improve the journey experience. On my journey I get Thameslink 319's - no tables or Southern 377's with tables.

The Southern units are much better especially when you have a coffee or paper because you can put them down. I hate travelling on the 319's because of the lack of tables and the need to balance coffee and paper means you cannot actually read the paper. Plus they put the seats closer so that your knees interfere with the person opposite much more.

As a fairly large bloke myself I find it handy to lift the seat arms on the 377s to get in and out.

Having used the 313's I don't think they could fit tables

Well I did guard my comment by saying that it is a matter of personal preference.. for me I am incapable of reading anything on a train for more than about 5 mins before it makes me feel rather nauseous.. A cup of coffee and a gaze out the window is my favourite occupation.. even in the dark!

I'm not against having tables at all, I just find it more awkward to manoevre out of a seat with one (even with the arms up). The 319s were built with discomfort in mind it seems as no one likes them.

 

[Aictos]

I don't mind the 319s, mind you I don't have much to do with them but when I've had to use them, they've been more then acceptable.

 

[Fincra5]

the 319s are awful. Crap seats at a crap hieght, no leg room, no tables, nothing. The only decent 319 was the full Southern Refurbished one.

I doubt the 313s can fit tables, unfortunatly.

 

[lm321412]

I've got no problems with the 319s, have used them quite a few times and do like the units, so i'm not sure why people hate them so much!

The refurb by Connex which included the fitting of tables was best and is definately an improvement over the standard interior of the units.

Personal preference at the end of the day...

 

[jon0844]

I think the FCC refreshed 319s with 2+2 seating are great. Bright, airy and with comfortable seats (Okay, so the longest I probably do is London Bridge to St Albans occasionally, and Brighton once in a blue moon). When they run the fast services, they are still smooth - if a little noisy with the windows open.

They're nicer to look at than the Southern interior on the brand new 377/5s (colour wise and general ambience, not comfort - especially with aircon and a hot summer approaching). As I've said before; if they had FCCs colouring, they'd look a lot brighter and more inviting.

Okay, so this is my opinion but it seems most people absolutely detest the 319s. There are many configurations though, and some must be basing opinion on the worst examples still awaiting the refresh. They are very grim, but are hardly indicative of the whole fleet. The thing is, FCC is hated by everyone that uses Thameslink, as against the Great Northern side. You can see on the Internet, Twitter and the online forums that most people think FCC has a fleet of old, dirty and unreliable trains. Surely the most unreliable ones are the newest ones?

Getting back on topic, the 313s on FCC are just fine. But, I must say that the photos showing what Southern are going to do with their ones is nicer still (except for the colour scheme inside). If we don't get 378s one day, they could certainly do the same to the 313s here.

 

[anonymous0101]

Well i hope you guys are right about 313s being used on the shorter services. Their ride and speed are woefully inadequate for longer runs and compared with modern traction they are very slow to accelerate.

 

[jon0844]

They're slow to get to speed, and max out at 75mph (but they can go faster!!) but once moving they're comfortable enough. Mind you, when I went down to Chichester on Southern in March, I didn't realise just how poor the tracks were and how bumpy the 377s could be.

I sit on a 313 for just under 45 minutes most days and it's okay. One day we might get 378s which will be faster and have air conditioning (something I'll be craving for in the coming weeks) but there are hardly any seats so there's a good chance I'll be standing a lot more unless they go for regular 2+2 seating.

 

[Aictos]

They're slow to get to speed, and max out at 75mph (but they can go faster!!) but once moving they're comfortable enough. Mind you, when I went down to Chichester on Southern in March, I didn't realise just how poor the tracks were and how bumpy the 377s could be.

I sit on a 313 for just under 45 minutes most days and it's okay. One day we might get 378s which will be faster and have air conditioning (something I'll be craving for in the coming weeks) but there are hardly any seats so there's a good chance I'll be standing a lot more unless they go for regular 2+2 seating.

Well speaking to someone yesterday on the way to work (working at Royston as I fancied a change of scenery!) Livingstone when he was London mayor ordered too many 378s then what was actually needed, so how accurate it is I don't know but they are cleared for Moorgate.

Just a case of wait and see I think.

 

[Fincra5]

Rather the over orders were sent to us down here FCC can have the 313s instead

 

[A60K]

Well speaking to someone yesterday on the way to work (working at Royston as I fancied a change of scenery!) Livingstone when he was London mayor ordered too many 378s then what was actually needed, so how accurate it is I don't know but they are cleared for Moorgate.

I think the full fleet of 378s will be needed for the London Overground services and don't think they've over-ordered at all - remember that the services aren't all open, using 378s or running at full frequency yet. I suspect your someone has seen spare units hanging around at depots and not realised this.

DC line: not using 378s yet, still 313s, to swap over this summer
NLL line: closed between Gospel Oak and Stratford until end of month with reduced service on the remaining line, frequency to be increased in future
WLL: likely to justify increase in frequency in future
ELL: opening between NXG and West Croydon and Crystal Palace this Sunday, between Dalston and Highbury next year, and between Surrey Quays and Clapham Junction year after

 

[Aictos]

Rather the over orders were sent to us down here FCC can have the 313s instead

No chance, I sooner have the 378s BUT with the proposed Southern 313 interior,
Failing that, FCC could refurb the 313s with the Southern interior but with FCC colours, certainly would worth it.

As to 313s being slow, I don't think they are as they accelerate quite fast as a example if you get a HST and a 313 both starting away from Stevenage at the same time, the 313 will very quickly overtake the HST but the HST's overall higher speed will let it overtake just a while longer.
Also, the reason they might seen like being slow is because of the stop start nature of their runs, you can get units go fast if you want to anyway.

 

[jon0844]

As I said ages ago when disruption saw a 313 put out on to the fast line along the ECML, it can definitely go beyond 75mph! Just as a 365 can get to 104-105mph on the fast between Potters Bar and Hatfield and then arrive 2-3 minutes early at Hatfield!

The time to get to speed, and slow down, when doing all-station stopping does mean a 313 rarely reaches 75mph.. more like 50-55, so it will feel slow because it IS going slow. When they do the odd peak semi-fast service, they get a chance to skip some stations and get up to the max line speed, but it's often held up by - yes - another all-station 313 service in front of it!!

 

[Fincra5]

No chance, I sooner have the 378s BUT with the proposed Southern 313 interior,
Failing that, FCC could refurb the 313s with the Southern interior but with FCC colours, certainly would worth it.

As to 313s being slow, I don't think they are as they accelerate quite fast as a example if you get a HST and a 313 both starting away from Stevenage at the same time, the 313 will very quickly overtake the HST but the HST's overall higher speed will let it overtake just a while longer.
Also, the reason they might seen like being slow is because of the stop start nature of their runs, you can get units go fast if you want to anyway.

Quite right. They will be on stopping services where even the 377s do not get near 75mph, yet loads of people still complain that they are slow...

 

[anonymous0101]

You can't compare an HSTand a 313 as they are designed for different types of work, but surely having been on a 313 and a 378, there is a big difference in their acceleration and thats what matters, not top speed.

 

[Daimler]

I sit on a 313 for just under 45 minutes most days and it's okay. One day we might get 378s which will be faster and have air conditioning (something I'll be craving for in the coming weeks) but there are hardly any seats so there's a good chance I'll be standing a lot more unless they go for regular 2+2 seating.

I would fervently hope that if the Moorgate line ever gets 378s, they will have regular (2+2 or, sadly more likely, 2+3) seating. Anything else would be pretty poor for what are not particularly short journeys, in a lot of cases.

 

[Metadyneman]

Mind you, when I went down to Chichester on Southern in March, I didn't realise just how poor the tracks were and how bumpy the 377s could be.

I have to agree with you there but I don't think it is the 377's which are at fault it is the dreadful state of Network rail's tracklaying in my opinion. I have noted several places where the track work is alarmingly bad. The worst places I have observed are on the West Coastway at some of the level crossings where the coaches "bottom out" on the airbags violently and most notably on the western side of the junction at the "cosham triangle" as i call it. Another place where i fear something awful might happen one day is at Earlswood on the up Quarry line. The jerking movement of the coaches over the last junction with the up/ down slow lines is dreadful and gives the feeling that one day something is going to come a cropper there!

 

[jon0844]

I didn't mean to say the 377s were poorly made, but they don't dampen the bumps very well. Of course, if the track is THAT bad then I guess they can't work miracles.

How much bumping around would it take to, in theory, cause a derailment? I presume we're some way off that!!