Dft cuts - where?

[Pumbaa]

Now Osborne has just released the budget review, the DfT has been cut £683 million;

Guardian summary
Treasury PDF download
BBC summary

Non-transport related, the most important points are;

- Child trust fund abolished
- Individual ministerial cars scrapped
- Ban on hiring new advisors/civil servants
- Maximum salary cap for civil servants
- Councils have over £1bn cut from budget

The only transport related cut so far is that civil servants, quangos and alike are banned from first class travel.

So where will these savings fall in DfT? IEP yes, what else? Thameslink descoped, Crossrail descoped? GW electrification binned?

 

[Old Timer]

GW electrification was always part of Labour's scorched earth policy. There are other infill schemes which would give much greater benefits and be more logical in many ways.

 

[Failed Unit]

GW electrification was always part of Labour's scorched earth policy. There are other infill schemes which would give much greater benefits and be more logical in many ways.

You mean in the Yorkshire, North West and midlands areas. Perhaps even the southern islands such as Reading to Redhill. A lot of road schemes will also be questioned.

 

[Pumbaa]

GW electrification was always part of Labour's scorched earth policy. There are other infill schemes which would give much greater benefits and be more logical in many ways.

Without doing a proper CBA, I'd plump with MML electrification being far more beneficial. Gives greater scope for infill electrification, and doing things a bit at a time without the need to break the bank. To cope with this, the GW HSTs will need a thorough life extension as is already being looked at. Cascaded stock from MML will also help alleviate this - HSTs to GW, Meridians to XC.

Can't imagine the pro-West Country gang will be too happy with that though - but on paper facts need to be faced. The Midlands, and consequentially Northern areas will benefit far more from electrification.

 

[Old Timer]

I agree absolutely with both of you.

 

[Pumbaa]

I agree absolutely with both of you.

I think I just keeled over in shock At least it happened once!

 

[HITMAN]

They should just bin IEP

 

[Pumbaa]

We'll know shortly - the report will be given to SoS at the end of the month, and the railway people in the know, and then press, thereafter.

 

[Barn]

We'll know shortly - the report will be given to SoS at the end of the month, and the railway people in the know, and then press, thereafter.

From the last Mayor's question time, I would be disappointed but not surprised if the Abbey Wood branch of Crossrail disappeared.

 

[Wyvern]

Without doing a proper CBA, I'd plump with MML electrification being far more beneficial. Gives greater scope for infill electrification, and doing things a bit at a time without the need to break the bank.

If they did, they might electrify the Erewash Valley and run expresses from Sheffield with connection at East Midlands Parkway. That would avoid the problem of wiring up a number of listed structures in the Derwent Valley.

 

[adambro]

They should just bin IEP

and bring back steam engines?

The HSTs are at least 28 years old and the Class 91s at least 19 years old. IEP is suspended at the moment but even by the previous plans, it would be 2014 until the IEP fleet was properly introduced.

Whilst the ageing fleet might please rail enthusiasts, the travelling public at large are missing out on 30 year of improvements in automotive design. I would much rather be in a Class 221 in a crash, for example, than a Mk3 as I suspect it would perform better.

 

[Greenback]

A sensible governemnt will bin all airport expansions, stop all new road building schemes and ensure NR is better run

 

[HITMAN]

and bring back steam engines?

The HSTs are at least 28 years old and the Class 91s at least 19 years old. IEP is suspended at the moment but even by the previous plans, it would be 2014 until the IEP fleet was properly introduced.

Whilst the ageing fleet might please rail enthusiasts, the travelling public at large are missing out on 30 year of improvements in automotive design. I would much rather be in a Class 221 in a crash, for example, than a Mk3 as I suspect it would perform better.

Actually trains should be horse drawn.

There is no need to start replacing the IC225 fleet for 2014 when finances are this tight, the new trains won't be any faster and are unlikely to be any more comfortable and it makes no sense to cancel valuable rail projects so that we can go ahead with pointless ones. It will be better to start looking at an upgrade of the ECML in 2020 to 155mph running which would include new trains, for the mean time keep the Class 91+Mark 4 arrangement.

 

[Failed Unit]

and bring back steam engines?

The HSTs are at least 28 years old and the Class 91s at least 19 years old. IEP is suspended at the moment but even by the previous plans, it would be 2014 until the IEP fleet was properly introduced.

Whilst the ageing fleet might please rail enthusiasts, the travelling public at large are missing out on 30 year of improvements in automotive design. I would much rather be in a Class 221 in a crash, for example, than a Mk3 as I suspect it would perform better.

Considering the chances of an accident are low and even when they do happen fortunatly fatalities are reasonably low. I think I will take the greater comfort of a mk3 myself. There is no point in replacing stock for the sake of it. Losing iep would be a good cost saving.

 

[tbtc]

GW electrification was always part of Labour's scorched earth policy. There are other infill schemes which would give much greater benefits and be more logical in many ways.

Totally agree old chap
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they did, they might electrify the Erewash Valley and run expresses from Sheffield with connection at East Midlands Parkway. That would avoid the problem of wiring up a number of listed structures in the Derwent Valley.

One advantage of electrifying Derby - Sheffield - Doncaster/ Leeds (and Derby - Nottingham) on the MML is that it means little would be needed (Derby - Birmingham) to make the whole "Cross Country" service north of Birmingham wired up
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From the last Mayor's question time, I would be disappointed but not surprised if the Abbey Wood branch of Crossrail disappeared.

Would be a shame, but I suppose that the Thames means that the Abbey Wood branch has a relatively high cost for a short length of line.

Hope they only make it a short term cut back, with scope for Crossrail to extend to Kent in the longer term
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To cope with this, the GW HSTs will need a thorough life extension as is already being looked at

The HSTs are the Triggers Broom of trains (as has been said on here before), which is one reason I fail to see the "end of an era" about the Grand Central engines changing. At current rates we may still have HSTs in 2025, but with new seats/ doors/ wheels/ engines/ cabs/ liveries/ carpets/ tables. They'll still be HSTs though

 

[Wyvern]

One advantage of electrifying Derby - Sheffield - Doncaster/ Leeds (and Derby - Nottingham) on the MML is that it means little would be needed (Derby - Birmingham) to make the whole "Cross Country" service north of Birmingham wired up

Yes but the trains that use Derby/Birmingham are XC Scotland to the South and South West and Notts to Cardiff. Unless you are going to make folk change in an already congested New Street the trains will still be diesels.

 

[Metroland]

The cuts are rolling stock renewal deferral and scrapping of some road widening/bypass schemes. Private sector might pick up rolling stock renewal, if given longer franchises.

IEP on ice, likely to be full electrification when the time comes.

Also two other things to note: Fuel tax balancer scrapped. With VAT and oil going up, likely to be MUCH more expensive.

Trunk road system to be privatised, story in yesterday's Telegraph. Sell off of the motorways and main roads.

APD and lorry taxes likely to be going up to.

 

[starrymarkb]

Yes but the trains that use Derby/Birmingham are XC Scotland to the South and South West and Notts to Cardiff. Unless you are going to make folk change in an already congested New Street the trains will still be diesels.

I was about to say the same thing!

 

[68000]

The station improvements in the Chris Green report will be shelved

 

[shinkansen1966]

At this stage, can the GW electrification actually be stopped? If it can, then I'm willing to guess that the scheme will be cancelled.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Thameslink Programme/Rolling Stock project, IEP, Crossrail, GWML electrification, re-signalling projects and anything like small electrication upgrades on branch lines will be delayed, slashed or scrapped altogether I would imagine. Can't see any new rail lines being built apart from that High Speed link, maybe the odd Spur/Chord here and there but nothing more than that. Down South I think the only scheme the Conservatives and Lib Dems backed was the Arundel Chord:

http://www.nickherbert.com/news.php/24/MP backs study into "Arundel chord" rail scheme

http://derekdeedman.mycouncillor.org.uk/2009/04/23/call-for-arundel-chord-rail-link-to-go-ahead/

Certainly the Willington Chord, Eastleigh Chord, Barnham Chord etc. didn't get a second look in and were thrown out the window a few years ago!

 

[Metroland]

This is stage one of the cuts, there is more likely to be next year and some the following 2 years.

It doesn't mean anything will be cut, what is likely to happen is investment will be paid for more by the private sector if given longer franchises - which is government policy.

 

[adambro]

Trunk road system to be privatised, story in yesterday's Telegraph. Sell off of the motorways and main roads.

Could be privatised according to the Telegraph, not to be privatised.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...onsiders-plan-to-sell-off-Britains-roads.html

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Assuming rebuilding HST (again) isnt viable, is it possible a return to locomotive hauled stock is a cheaper answer than building IEP? The sight of Class 67s in FGW livery would be interesting to say the least. Whilst accepting GWML electrification is very likely going to be binned, lets face it, its going to be rather contentious to say the least. The west country is the Conservative and Liberal heartland.

I think we can kiss the Kemble redoubling goodbye. Unfair IMHO, because the cash has already been put aside from a road project that was cancelled. It might actually have proven greater value than the rather expensive Cotswold redoubling, which Network Rail admits will only save 3 minutes. That its taken over 40 years to redouble some track that should never have been singled takes some believing.

 

[Metroland]

Could be privatised according to the Telegraph, not to be privatised.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...onsiders-plan-to-sell-off-Britains-roads.html

It's highly, highly likely with the cashcows of Health and defence protected, other departments are going to take a huge battering.

 

[me123]

It's highly, highly likely with the cashcows of Health and defence protected, other departments are going to take a huge battering.

Health has to be protected. People don't stop getting ill in a recession, and as far as I'm concerned cutting the healthcare budget would be unethical and criminal. That said, NHS boards across the UK should look at making their services more efficient without impacting on patient care, for example a wage freeze. Same goes for defence at this moment in time (considering we've got troops in a war at the moment). Although I personally have to question the logic of throwing billions of pounds into funding nuclear missiles that we're never going to fire, but I digress...

I think you'll also find that education won't be impacted all that much. Pupils may have to put up with older textbooks and may not get a new school building, but teacher numbers probably won't be falling I wouldn't imagine.

And when you consider all the other things, such as essential council services and policing, transport is where the axe is going to fall. And I can think of a number of projects, such as Crossrail and HST2/ICE/whatever, that could easily be scaled back, postponed, or cut altogether. It's already happened with the Glasgow Airport Rail Link.

As for electrification, I'd also certainly expect one project to go. Yes Midland Mainline makes a great deal more sense than GWML. That said, the politics could easily intervene. GWML is, as has already been said, Blue and Yellow throughout. At the recent election, Tories held and gained a lot of seats up the MML way, but the main cities (Derby, Nottingham and Leicester) are Labour strongholds, alongside large parts of Sheffield. I would hope that sense overcomes politics here, but you never know.

DfT will likely also cut road projects I would think. But I hope that trunk roads are not privatised. This screams of road tolls, and from my recent experience on a bus through France, I can tell you that the tolls are ridiculously expensive and the quality of the road varies considerably; and isn't really any better than the UK to be honest.

 

[Ivo]

They can start by confirming that the bus rapid transit schemes here and back home never see the light of day

 

[starrymarkb]

Assuming rebuilding HST (again) isnt viable, is it possible a return to locomotive hauled stock is a cheaper answer than building IEP? The sight of Class 67s in FGW livery would be interesting to say the least.

Problem you have there is where are you going to find 125mph diesels... 67s can't do 125mph with a full tank of fuel. The Euro-Loks (Traxx DE/Eurorunner) have similar axle loads.

Unless you reduce the GWML down to a 100/110mph railway...

 

[Daimler]

and bring back steam engines?

The HSTs are at least 28 years old and the Class 91s at least 19 years old. IEP is suspended at the moment but even by the previous plans, it would be 2014 until the IEP fleet was properly introduced.

Whilst the ageing fleet might please rail enthusiasts, the travelling public at large are missing out on 30 year of improvements in automotive design. I would much rather be in a Class 221 in a crash, for example, than a Mk3 as I suspect it would perform better.

19 years old? Crikey! Get rid of them at once!

There are TGVs running that are older than that...

As for the Mk3s, they seem to please the passengers too. Indeed,they seem to please them rather more than the supposed most advanced trains on the network (excluding HS1) - the Pendolinos, which came last in a Passenger Focus customer satisfaction poll of intercity trains. Progress.

As for being in a 221 in a crash, you're probably right in a centre car, but I'm not sure if I'd like to be at the front of the first carriage doing 125 mph if it hits something.

Now, I'm not saying we won't need a new train - we do at some point. However, the old ones aren't in desperate need of replacement yet, so why, when we're entering 'an age of austerity' should we shell out on a ridiculously expensive answer to a question no one asked.

IEP is the wrong train at the wrong time. I look forward to reading about its abandonment.

There are far more worthwhile areas where what money is available can be spent.

 

[Lampshade]

As for the Mk3s, they seem to please the passengers too. Indeed,they seem to please them rather more than the supposed most advanced trains on the network (excluding HS1) - the Pendolinos, which came last in a Passenger Focus customer satisfaction poll of intercity trains. Progress...

Ahh yes, but the Mk3 only just scored marginally better, IIRC the 222s came top with the Voyagers second hock: