• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TPE 'Abysmal' Performance

Status
Not open for further replies.

BenW390Fan

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
310
Location
Liverpool
It's been all over the news that TPE has been discussed in parliament and given a warning to ensure that passengers get a good service. I've travelled on TPE a few times and I've never had any issues with them. So what's all the fuss about?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

alexl92

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2014
Messages
2,277
From what I've heard, it sounds like there may have been a fair few service cancellations as they've struggled to have enough staff a) in general and b) trained on all the new stock they've got. They're currently operating 5 different types of stock:
  • Class 802 - Hitachi Bi-mode Multiple Unit
  • Class 397 - CAF Civity EMU
  • Class 68 + MK5 coaches - Stadler mixed-traffic diesel loco with a push-pull set of coaches
  • Class 185 - Siemens Desiro DMU
  • Class 350/4 - Siemens Desiro EMU
Previously it was just 185s + 170s, then 185s and 350s. Now they're introducing an extra 3 types, they have the challenge of getting enough drivers trained on all of them whilst meeting the new timetable.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,736
Location
Mold, Clwyd
They seriously bungled the introduction of the three new train fleets, and it's still only half way through.
There were major problems with the new trains, and the extended training programme meant that they could not run anything like the full service.
This has resulted in multiple cancellations and starting/ending short for many months.
They have also prioritised the introduction of new services (Newcastle-Edinburgh and Liverpool-Glasgow) above delivering the core service.
They were also caught up in the same dislocation through Manchester that Northern suffered for the past 18 months, for the same reasons (ie the May 2018 timetable change and inadequate infrastructure).
Punctuality and reliability figures have been abysmal for many months.
Services are slightly better now more new trains are in service, but it will be May before they are as promised in their franchise bid.
 
Last edited:

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
Timetable robustness has improved dramatically since the December 2019 change on the Manchester-York segment, but is still congested so any delays upstream have knock-on effects and often further delays. The difficult start of the Liverpool-Edinburgh via Leeds is also improving and should be up to full programme by the end of this month.
 

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
They seriously bungled the introduction of the three new train fleets, and it's still only half way through.
This doesn't surprise me; as I've noted before their small size and large losses mean that they operate HQ on a shoestring. There just isn't the capability to manage large projects.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
It's been all over the news that TPE has been discussed in parliament and given a warning to ensure that passengers get a good service. I've travelled on TPE a few times and I've never had any issues with them. So what's all the fuss about?
I'd go and buy a lottery ticket, clearly you're a very lucky individual.
 

cuccir

Established Member
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
3,659
As others have said, it's not so much when you're travelling with them that's the problem, it's when you're not! The new trains are a welcome boost in capacity, and I can imagine that in a couple of years time the overall TPE experience will be better than it was in (say) 2015.

But since 2018, they have had a high frequency of cancellations, particularly in the aftermath of timetable changes: December 19 was the worst, but there were issues both after May 18 and December 18 as well. It'd be wrong to imagine that there were none in-between those pinch points either: their Scarborough service in particular has been bad, but really on all routes they're prone to cancelling services at York in order to maintain core frequency. In turn, the core remains prone to overcrowding as there is such demand on the Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool segment in particular that a minor delay on the periphery can create huge impacts down the line.

The underlying problem is attempting to run mid-to-long distance services from Scotland, the North-East and Yorkshire to Liverpool and Manchester Airport through a heavily congested urban core (between Leeds and Manchester). Unless you have excellent organisation, and some spare capacity, problems will reverberate across the length of that network and the only fixes are cancellations at the edges, or overcrowding in the core.
 

2L70

On Moderation
Joined
18 Feb 2019
Messages
355
Location
Barnetby
This doesn't surprise me; as I've noted before their small size and large losses mean that they operate HQ on a shoestring. There just isn't the capability to manage large projects.

Key words there from someone who will know.

If you search for any other TPE related threads on this forum particularly from users of the Scarborough and Hull Lines you will see what the issues are.
 

BenW390Fan

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
310
Location
Liverpool
From what I've heard, it sounds like there may have been a fair few service cancellations as they've struggled to have enough staff a) in general and b) trained on all the new stock they've got. They're currently operating 5 different types of stock:
  • Class 802 - Hitachi Bi-mode Multiple Unit
  • Class 397 - CAF Civity EMU
  • Class 68 + MK5 coaches - Stadler mixed-traffic diesel loco with a push-pull set of coaches
  • Class 185 - Siemens Desiro DMU
  • Class 350/4 - Siemens Desiro EMU
Previously it was just 185s + 170s, then 185s and 350s. Now they're introducing an extra 3 types, they have the challenge of getting enough drivers trained on all of them whilst meeting the new timetable.

They seriously bungled the introduction of the three new train fleets, and it's still only half way through.
There were major problems with the new trains, and the extended training programme meant that they could not run anything like the full service.
This has resulted in multiple cancellations and starting/ending short for many months.
They have also prioritised the introduction of new services (Newcastle-Edinburgh and Liverpool-Glasgow) above delivering the core service.
They were also caught up in the same dislocation through Manchester that Northern suffered for the past 18 months, for the same reasons (ie the May 2018 timetable change and inadequate infrastructure).
Punctuality and reliability figures have been abysmal for many months.
Services are slightly better now more new trains are in service, but it will be May before they are as promised in their franchise bid.

With them prioritising the new services, would the Nova 1's not run on the Liverpool - Glasgow and the Nova 3's, 185's, Nova 2's and 350/4's on the other routes? Or are not all the Nova 1's in service yet?
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
960
Location
The North
With them prioritising the new services, would the Nova 1's not run on the Liverpool - Glasgow and the Nova 3's, 185's, Nova 2's and 350/4's on the other routes? Or are not all the Nova 1's in service yet?

11 of 19 802s are currently in use. This goes up to 13 on Monday.
 

BenW390Fan

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
310
Location
Liverpool
11 of 19 802s are currently in use. This goes up to 13 on Monday.
IF the 802's are running on the Liverpool - Glasgow and if that's the service that they're prioritising, is 11 not enough for a days diagram? Apologies if I come off as rude, just genuine questions
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,736
Location
Mold, Clwyd
With them prioritising the new services, would the Nova 1's not run on the Liverpool - Glasgow and the Nova 3's, 185's, Nova 2's and 350/4's on the other routes? Or are not all the Nova 1's in service yet?

Nova 1s are now the one bright spot in the mix, as from next week all the Liverpool-York-Edinburgh services should run with them (185s not used north of Newcastle).
Liverpool-Preston-Glasgow is 185s.
Manchester Airport-Preston-Scotland is a mix of 350, 185 and Nova 2.
Liverpool-Scarborough is a mix of 185 and Nova 3.
Manchester Airport-Leeds (and beyond) are mostly 185 (not many Nova 1/3 here).
TP South is 185.

It's not planned for Nova 1 (802) to run Liverpool-Preston-Glasgow, that will eventually go to Nova 2 when enough trains are in service.
Nova 1s will run Liverpool/Manchester Airport-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
960
Location
The North
IF the 802's are running on the Liverpool - Glasgow and if that's the service that they're prioritising, is 11 not enough for a days diagram? Apologies if I come off as rude, just genuine questions

No problem! Just a list of what will be running below new trains wise.

Liverpool - Glasgow via WCML - cl185 currently until 397's are in full operation
Liverpool - Edinburgh via ECML - 802's
Man Air - Newcastle - Mix of 185's and 802's until 802's are in full operation
Man Air - Glasgow/Edinburgh via WCML - mix of 350's, 397's and 185's until 397's are in full operation
Liverpool - Scarborough - Mix of 185's and Nova 3's (Mk5a's pulled by class 68) until Nova 3's are in full operation
 

Trainfan2019

Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
452
I gave up travelling on TPE south pennine route due to regular severe overcrowding. Far better to use Northern between Sheffield and Manchester
 

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
1,618
Location
All around the network
I gave up travelling on TPE south pennine route due to regular severe overcrowding. Far better to use Northern between Sheffield and Manchester
Travelling on a Pacer or a 156 through the Hope Valley for an hour?! You must have to pack a blanket and a flask in your rucksack surely.
TPE can only improve once all the new stock is bedded in and more 185s become 6 cars. Transition periods are always tough for TocS, it would be jumping the gun for parliament to make any descisions on the franchise just because of one tough winter season. TPE have good management and crew from what I hear, and from my expereince with them. They have always had the problem of balancing Manchester - Sheffield and Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds commuter traffic with long distance Scottish and North East branch serivces. Now with new stock I'd be optimistic in the coming months. Correct me if wrong.
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,229
Location
At home or at the pub
OP must be lucky then, TPE from Liverpool should be 2tph but regully can be waiting 90 minutes or more with cancelled services, even today there's been delay & cancellations, if you missed the 09.24, the 09.53 was cancelled the next one was 10.54 which ran 5 late, the new timetable with introduction of the new trains have been botched.

The Ordsall Curve doesn't help either, the line through the Castlefield corridor is at capacity, just needs any train being late to foul things up big time, ironic the Ordsall Curve was built to east problems at Slade Lane Junction but has crated new problems further down the line
 

2L70

On Moderation
Joined
18 Feb 2019
Messages
355
Location
Barnetby
Travelling on a Pacer or a 156 through the Hope Valley for an hour?! You must have to pack a blanket and a flask in your rucksack surely.
TPE can only improve once all the new stock is bedded in and more 185s become 6 cars. Transition periods are always tough for TocS, it would be jumping the gun for parliament to make any descisions on the franchise just because of one tough winter season. TPE have good management and crew from what I hear, and from my expereince with them. They have always had the problem of balancing Manchester - Sheffield and Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds commuter traffic with long distance Scottish and North East branch serivces. Now with new stock I'd be optimistic in the coming months. Correct me if wrong.

1)They had a purge the other year so it might have improved, the previous ones were only interested in disciplining Traincrew for whatever reason they could think of.

For example, a Guard had his cab broken into whilst he was assisting passengers and cash stolen, when he realised reported it to Control, the local manager at the time understood the situation but was told to enforce a heavy punishment.

2. The Scotland services were new to the Franchise in pursuit of other markets, they gained Blackpool - Airport and binned it off thanks to their friends in the Government ministry of the time. Same with the the Newcastle - Edinburgh route. i don't see how they can gain the Liverpool - Nottingham route from EMR, although nothing surprises me as far as Government involvment in Railways does anymore.
 

416GSi

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2015
Messages
68
Location
Usk, Monmouthshire
I've never understood why they introduced three different types of new train. The staff training, more complex maintainability requirements, diagraming restrictions and other areas of complexity must make that difficult to say the least. That said I was impressed by the 802 that they have. From a livery and internal fit perspective they seem to be a slight improvement on the 80x on the GWR and LNER.
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
960
Location
The North
OP must be lucky then, TPE from Liverpool should be 2tph but regully can be waiting 90 minutes or more with cancelled services, even today there's been delay & cancellations, if you missed the 09.24, the 09.53 was cancelled the next one was 10.54 which ran 5 late, the new timetable with introduction of the new trains have been botched.

The Ordsall Curve doesn't help either, the line through the Castlefield corridor is at capacity, just needs any train being late to foul things up big time, ironic the Ordsall Curve was built to east problems at Slade Lane Junction but has crated new problems further down the line

That cancelled train had quite a serious fault. You can't just magic up a train out of fresh air to replace it.
 

dave59

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2010
Messages
120
I've never understood why they introduced three different types of new train. The staff training, more complex maintainability requirements, diagraming restrictions and other areas of complexity must make that difficult to say the least. That said I was impressed by the 802 that they have. From a livery and internal fit perspective they seem to be a slight improvement on the 80x on the GWR and LNER.
Indeed. With hindsight only two types required. 801 for the WCML and 802 for those trundling across the Pennines' electrification desert.
 

C J Snarzell

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2019
Messages
1,506
I've used TPE a few times between Manchester & York.

The trains I have used have always been punctual but my biggest gripe is the overcrowding.

A couple of services I have used have been ridiculously over crowded in the carriages where it has been so bad, people have had to spill off the train onto the platforms at each respective station stop to allow other passengers to get off behind them, before reboarding the train!!!

My step sister who lives in Stalybridge & works in Central Leeds is currently 7 months pregnant and very rarely gets a seat on the TPE morning services!!! The carriages are so congested it's every person for themself.

During another overcrowded service I was on I witnessed my own brand of disgusting behaviour - two lads going to Newcastle purposely stood in the doorway to the first class section to keep the exit doors clear on a already congested service. They were then forceably shunted out the doorway to the first class section by the TPE host who politely told them they were not allowed to congregate where they were stood as they were standard class passengers! They then stepped into the already crowded foyer area of the carriage - the TPE host then shut the frosted doors into the first class section behind her. This seem to emphasise the point we were all cattle not worthy of the VIP area!

The geordie lads got their own back when a snooty looking toff in a business suite tried to come out of the first class section to wade through the sea of bodies to get to the toilet. The two geordie lads completely blocked his path and wouldn't move - they snarled at him like a couple of lions making him retreat back into first class holding his bladder. Nice bit of revenge to the Newcastle lads.

This type of overcrowding must surely breach health & safety regulations and if disabled passengers want to get on at a station on the route they are surely snookered even boarding? Not good.

CJ
 

BenW390Fan

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
310
Location
Liverpool
I've used TPE a few times between Manchester & York.

The trains I have used have always been punctual but my biggest gripe is the overcrowding.

A couple of services I have used have been ridiculously over crowded in the carriages where it has been so bad, people have had to spill off the train onto the platforms at each respective station stop to allow other passengers to get off behind them, before reboarding the train!!!

My step sister who lives in Stalybridge & works in Central Leeds is currently 7 months pregnant and very rarely gets a seat on the TPE morning services!!! The carriages are so congested it's every person for themself.

During another overcrowded service I was on I witnessed my own brand of disgusting behaviour - two lads going to Newcastle purposely stood in the doorway to the first class section to keep the exit doors clear on a already congested service. They were then forceably shunted out the doorway to the first class section by the TPE host who politely told them they were not allowed to congregate where they were stood as they were standard class passengers! They then stepped into the already crowded foyer area of the carriage - the TPE host then shut the frosted doors into the first class section behind her. This seem to emphasise the point we were all cattle not worthy of the VIP area!

The geordie lads got their own back when a snooty looking toff in a business suite tried to come out of the first class section to wade through the sea of bodies to get to the toilet. The two geordie lads completely blocked his path and wouldn't move - they snarled at him like a couple of lions making him retreat back into first class holding his bladder. Nice bit of revenge to the Newcastle lads.

This type of overcrowding must surely breach health & safety regulations and if disabled passengers want to get on at a station on the route they are surely snookered even boarding? Not good.

CJ
I can see where you're coming from, overcrowding is definitely a problem on 3 car services. On Lime Street to Newcastle / Scarbrough services, you should be able to get a seat from Liverpool to Manchester Vic. The train is usually around half full departing Lime Street and not many leave the train at Lea Green or Newton le Willows. The train is then around 3/4 full into Manchester where around half the train would leave and then another load of passengers would board the train adding on another half of passengers.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
680
Indeed. With hindsight only two types required. 801 for the WCML and 802 for those trundling across the Pennines' electrification desert.
The desire was for an entire Cl 802 fleet but Hitachi couldn't build the sets in the time they were required.
 

Roger B

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2018
Messages
896
Location
Gatley
Given the current state of play re numbers of 802s in service, and 397s and 68+Mk5s accepted for service, I suggest that had they opted for just 802s, they'd have had the full fleet in service in a shorter time than will have been the case with the three fleets, significantly reducing overheads on training, operating costs, maintenance, etc. And it's not clear to me why 802s can't be augmented with additional cars (other than platform length and signalling constraints, which would apply to lengthening 68+Mk5s in any case).
 

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,011
It's tricky enough through Leeds for TPE services. Even a 10 minute delay has repercussions on the other side of the Pennines. But through Manchester it's another dimension.

Northern's and TPE's punctuality problems partly stem from too many trains on a finite amount of track. This is partly the fault of the DfT and Transport for the North who are demanding more services but are unwilling to invest in the infrastructure to support this growth. At the same time Network Rail do not object and go along with a timetable that clearly has no resilience to offer a dependable service to retain existing passengers and encourage new ones.

But the TOCs are equally liable. Poor resourcing of units - single leaf end carriages through Manchester Oxford Road and Piccadilly? Really? And that's usually delayed while TPE get their catering trolley off/on their trains at Piccadilly. Delays through Manchester adversely impact on TPE services due to the dependence of Manchester Airport as the effective de facto terminus for their services.

Honestly think too many people in the railway industry are genuinely deluded and not up to the job if they cannot identify poor organisation and ridiculous practices (such as the trolley change at Piccadilly) which are allowed to still persist. Too many pen-pushers - all just point fingers at one another. Not good enough.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,105
I gave up travelling on TPE south pennine route due to regular severe overcrowding. Far better to use Northern between Sheffield and Manchester
I avoid N Transpennine trains since being unable to board at Leeds: I find that it's far better to travel from Bingley via Lancaster to places west of Manchester than it is to try to get home through Leeds.
 

Trainfan2019

Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
452
Travelling on a Pacer or a 156 through the Hope Valley for an hour?! You must have to pack a blanket and a flask in your rucksack surely.

No need to pack blanket or flask. I just sit in my seat which I always have a choice of unlike on TPE where getting a seat is usually a rare experience.
 

ag51ruk

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2014
Messages
629
The geordie lads got their own back when a snooty looking toff in a business suite tried to come out of the first class section to wade through the sea of bodies to get to the toilet. The two geordie lads completely blocked his path and wouldn't move - they snarled at him like a couple of lions making him retreat back into first class holding his bladder. Nice bit of revenge to the Newcastle lads.

"Snooty looking toff" - really? Revenge on someone who hadn't caused them any problems in the first place and needed to use the toilet?

If you think that's acceptable and appropriate, I hope you're never put in a similar position by someone who arbitrarily decides that they don't like the look of you
 

47444

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2019
Messages
282
Given the current state of play re numbers of 802s in service, and 397s and 68+Mk5s accepted for service, I suggest that had they opted for just 802s, they'd have had the full fleet in service in a shorter time than will have been the case with the three fleets, significantly reducing overheads on training, operating costs, maintenance, etc. And it's not clear to me why 802s can't be augmented with additional cars (other than platform length and signalling constraints, which would apply to lengthening 68+Mk5s in any case).

At the time of bidding, Hitachi hadn't bought their Italian factory, and thus couldn't promise delivery of a complete fleet of 802s in the timescales required by DfT / First
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top