Why is the French name for Brussel-Zuid not Bruxelles-Sud?

[Calthrop]

Similarly, mezzogiorno in Italian is also used to refer to the southern part of the country. (The explanation is obvious by looking at a sundial).

I gather that some 60 - 70 years ago (no idea what has happened to it since), there was in the "heel" of the Italian peninsula, a privately-owned railway 80km. or so, long, which was actually named the Ferrovie Mezzogiorno. Bryan Morgan in his The End Of The Line, speculating about this line -- which he had never in fact visited -- writes waggishly that "[the] name quite misleadingly haunts me with its hint of a single train which can only leave when the sun is at its exact zenith".

The English translation of this sense of "midi" is "meridional", an archaic word for south.

This thing of "meridional" or equivalent, with south-related connotations, would seem to occur in Italian too. Morgan's next sentence after his above "Mezzogiorno" quip, tells of (situation as at the mid-1950s) "the busy but narrow-gauge electric Strade Ferrate Secondarie Meridionali which run from Naples... to places like Pompeii, and to Sorrento..." .

 

[317666]

What interests me is that in German the station is referred to as Brüssel-Midi rather than Brüssel-Süd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What interests me is that in German the station is referred to as Brüssel-Midi rather than Brüssel-Süd.

Same in English - people tend to use "Brussels Midi" rather than "Brussels South" or (if you must) "Brussels Midday" (though that would in context be a bad translation).

It's probably a familiarity thing - people don't know the context of Midi so treat it as a name. A bit like "Bayern Munich" which makes no sense but is probably just because "Bavaria Munich" is a mouthful and "Bayern Muenchen" is a bit hard to work out how to pronounce if you're not a German speaker. Or like we don't translate "Hauptbahnhof" because we don't have an equivalent in common use (OK, it's sort of "General", but that's a rare one, it doesn't translate as "central" because we use that to mean the one closest to the centre *or* a station that was on the Great Central).

German people do translate Hbf to "Main station" which sounds oddly stilted to an English speaker - and I'd imagine Belgians do talk of "Brussels South" in English which would confuse most actual English speakers.

 

[duesselmartin]

What interests me is that in German the station is referred to as Brüssel-Midi rather than Brüssel-Süd.

Germany thinks aus Belgium beiing French speaking. Possibly because the German minority is Walonia? Or because most Germans only know Brüssel?
We also see the rail companys aus SNCB and Not NMBS.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Germany thinks aus Belgium beiing French speaking. Possibly because the German minority is Walonia? Or because most Germans only know Brüssel?
We also see the rail companys aus SNCB and Not NMBS.

I think there is a default in most countries, and SNCB would be it. I don't know if that assumes French speaking, or is perhaps more because, due to the much more famous SNCF, it's just a more familiar abbreviation.

Similarly you don't get people talking of CFF outside of Switzerland (and also note that that doesn't actually specify which country it's the federal railway of!), and you only get "FFS" posted on Twitter when London Northwestern has cancelled yet another train It's SBB to everyone else.

 

[SHD]

I think there is a default in most countries, and SNCB would be it. I don't know if that assumes French speaking, or is perhaps more because, due to the much more famous SNCF, it's just a more familiar abbreviation.

Indeed, and probably a passing inspiration for the abbreviation SNCF as it was incorporated under the name SNCB 12 years before SNCF!

Similarly you don't get people talking of CFF outside of Switzerland (and also note that that doesn't actually specify which country it's the federal railway of!), and you only get "FFS" posted on Twitter when London Northwestern has cancelled yet another train It's SBB to everyone else.

True but for two of Switzerland’s neighbours

 

[Calthrop]

Germany thinks aus Belgium beiing French speaking. Possibly because the German minority is Walonia? Or because most Germans only know Brüssel?
We also see the rail companys aus SNCB and Not NMBS.

I think there is a default in most countries, and SNCB would be it. I don't know if that assumes French speaking, or is perhaps more because, due to the much more famous SNCF, it's just a more familiar abbreviation.

I get the impression that it's rather the same in Britain, as in Germany per @duesselmartin -- the default tends to be "things Belgian -- French language". One instance: British enthusiasts for continental European light railways seem always to refer to Belgium's (now all but defunct) metre-gauge light-railway / tramway system by its French title, "Chemins de Fer Vicinaux", not the Flemish equivalent "Buurtspoorwegen" [sp?]

I rather have the picture that -- bound up with Belgium's being inhabited by mainly two different-language-speaking communities (and as mentioned above, there's also the small German-speaking area at the country's eastern extremity !) who tend not to get on very well with each other -- non-Belgians' "French-language default" stems from the time many decades ago, when the French-speaking community and their language tended to dominate the administrative / commercial / cultural life of the country; Flemish-speakers tending to be disregarded as marginalised bumpkins, with a similar attitude on the part of the Francophones, to their language. There's the business from World War I in which allegedly, orders to Belgian troops were often given in French only -- many Flemish soldiers didn't understand what they were being told to do ! (Nowadays, the boot is rather on the other foot: Flemish Belgium is the country's commercial powerhouse, whereas the French-speaking Wallonia part is something of a depressed industrial rust-belt.)

Also, maybe: it's in part just a function of French being a language widespreadly current internationally; whereas Dutch / Flemish, restricted to all intents and purposes to Flemish Belgium and the Netherlands !

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might also be relevant that French is the default foreign language taught in most UK schools, being both the nearest neighbour and a country where, when travelling there, some effort is appreciated. Whereas learning Dutch can be a challenge because they won't let you speak it, they will insist on English!

 

[Calthrop]

Whereas learning Dutch can be a challenge because they won't let you speak it, they will insist on English!

One gathers that those whose mother-tongue is -- with due respect to all concerned -- a "minority" one, current only in their native country/ies, have, perforce, to become capable linguists !

I've heard of a curious instance where some knowledge of the Dutch language was advantageous. A situation which obtained fifty-odd years ago, for railway enthusiasts visiting Indonesia -- then a steam paradise, if a decidedly decrepit one. The country had been a Dutch colony until about 1950: this had been on the whole, an unhappy time and place in history -- but it did mean that half a century ago, many older Indonesians knew at least some Dutch. It was worth a Western visitor's while to attempt beforehand, to mug up a little of the Dutch language (easier to learn, for most European-language-speakers, than Indonesian !); having done this, could help a good deal when steam-questing in Indonesia, re communicating with railway staff and others.

 

[SHD]

I gather that some 60 - 70 years ago (no idea what has happened to it since), there was in the "heel" of the Italian peninsula, a privately-owned railway 80km. or so, long, which was actually named the Ferrovie Mezzogiorno. Bryan Morgan in his The End Of The Line, speculating about this line -- which he had never in fact visited -- writes waggishly that "[the] name quite misleadingly haunts me with its hint of a single train which can only leave when the sun is at its exact zenith".

It is still up and running and, for a remote secondary railway in Apulia, it has a very complete English website: http://www.ferroviedelgargano.com/en-gb/Chi-siamo/History

 

[Spoorslag '70]

What interests me is that in German the station is referred to as Brüssel-Midi rather than Brüssel-Süd.

Well, at least by the kind of people responsible for passenger information in Germany. Myself will always refer to it as Brussel-Zuid or Brüssel-Süd (when speaking German) or Brussels-South (when speaking English) - but I'm quite francophobe (and think that Brussel is traditonally a flemish town). It is sadly the case that many people, especially those who have newly moved to Brussel, tend to speak French only and of course French is more widely spoken by other people, which leads to the situation Brussel now is in. Intrestingly, the automatic announcements at Eupen station do waffle about "Brüssel-Midi", which - in my eyes - is not correct under the Belgian language legislation, but I will let other people be the judge of that.

On a semi-related note, Flemish staff will normally be less reluctant to answer in French than Wallonian staff might be to answer in Flemish - both are required to speak whatever language the customer has contacted them in.

 

[SHD]

Well, at least by the kind of people responsible for passenger information in Germany. Myself will always refer to it as Brussel-Zuid or Brüssel-Süd (when speaking German) or Brussels-South (when speaking English) - but I'm quite francophobe (and think that Brussel is traditonally a flemish town). It is sadly the case that many people, especially those who have newly moved to Brussel, tend to speak French only and of course French is more widely spoken by other people, which leads to the situation Brussel now is in. Intrestingly, the automatic announcements at Eupen station do waffle about "Brüssel-Midi", which - in my eyes - is not correct under the Belgian language legislation, but I will let other people be the judge of that.

On a semi-related note, Flemish staff will normally be less reluctant to answer in French than Wallonian staff might be to answer in Flemish - both are required to speak whatever language the customer has contacted them in.

Unless you are referring to Flemish & Wallonian SNCB staff working in Brussels, this is not true. SNCB staff must comply with the Loi sur l'emploi des langues en matière administrative (*) (see reference - article 36). Outside of Brussels - and notwithstanding the specific cases of communes with facilities - members of staff are required to use the language(s) of the administrative region they are working in (or are currently standing in, e.g. train conductors) and most certainly not required to speak "whatever language the customer has contacted them in", although they are not barred to speak another language.

I also disagree with your statement that Flemish staff (assuming they are working in Flanders) will be less reluctant to speak French than Wallonian staff (assuming they are working in Wallonia) to speak Dutch. They will most probably be more reluctant to speak French, even if statistically their command of French will be far superior to their Walloon colleague's command of Dutch.


(*) If your Francophobia is so strong that you cannot open a link in French, here is the link to the Dutch version

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

One point that has not been mentioned is that Nord and Midi were both terminal stations until 1949 , so they really were the 'northern' and 'southern' gateway stations rather than a strict reference to their geographic locations. International expresses from Paris to Amsterdam etc. had to rather inconveniently reverse in Midi station until the central connecting-line was built. Similarly Brussels Luxembourg as built was a terminal station (gateway for Luxembourg), but was soon connected to Nord.

 

[ashkeba]

German people do translate Hbf to "Main station" which sounds oddly stilted to an English speaker - [...]

Since Cambridge North station has opened, I have heard people refer to "Cambridge Main" a few times, which is not to be confused with the mighty town of "Cambridge, Maine". I doubt the German influence is strong enough to have caused it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since Cambridge North station has opened, I have heard people refer to "Cambridge Main" a few times, which is not to be confused with the mighty town of "Cambridge, Maine". I doubt the German influence is strong enough to have caused it.

It would be helpful if it gained an official suffix, though Central would be pushing it. Main might work - there is one other, namely Farnborough, or perhaps General.

Other than Farnborough I've never heard it used in the UK but then most of the "main" stations where there's another suffixed one have a suffix anyway.

Have ye a thread to discuss this further if you like

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-cambridge-station-be-renamed-now-theres-a-north.200978/

 

[MarcVD]

Indeed, and probably a passing inspiration for the abbreviation SNCF as it was incorporated under the name SNCB 12 years before SNCF!

More precisely, SNCB as we know it was indeed incorporated in 1926, but under the name SNCFB, and the name was changed to SNCB in 1938 in order to avoid confusion with the newly created SNCF.

 

[MarcVD]

but I'm quite francophobe (and think that Brussel is traditonally a flemish town).

A long time ago maybe, but today the population of Brussels is less than 10% dutch speaking.

 

[MarcVD]

One gathers that those whose mother-tongue is -- with due respect to all concerned -- a "minority" one, current only in their native country/ies, have, perforce, to become capable linguists !

Indeed. It is not very difficult, in Flanders or in the Netherlands, to find people with good command of French, English, and German, but much more difficult to find the equivalent in Wallonia or France. And I get very strange looks when I say that I'm learning russian...

 

[SHD]

More precisely, SNCB as we know it was indeed incorporated in 1926, but under the name SNCFB, and the name was changed to SNCB in 1938 in order to avoid confusion with the newly created SNCF.

ha, I did not know about this one
If I am not mistaken SNCB is also the European railway with the oldest logo, and one of the few with a logo created by a world class artist.

 

[Calthrop]

It is still up and running and, for a remote secondary railway in Apulia, it has a very complete English website: http://www.ferroviedelgargano.com/en-gb/Chi-siamo/History

Interesting link -- thank you -- glad that the railway remains in the land of the living. I blushed to discover that I had misunderstood Morgan's glancing reference to it -- without giving the names of any communities served -- as "sticking out fifty miles into the Apulian spur": I read those words as meaning the "heel" of Italy -- when in fact it's the "promontory" bit at the western end of Puglia province, featuring Manfredonia and other places. Will confess that I'm not well-informed about Italy: not, for me, one of Europe's more attractive railway countries -- though I have no doubt that re this matter "it isn't it -- it's me" !

 

[AnkleBoots]

Same in English - people tend to use "Brussels Midi" rather than "Brussels South" or (if you must) "Brussels Midday" (though that would in context be a bad translation).

Many English speakers would take Brussels South station to mean Charleroi station ie the one near Brussels South airport.

 

[MarcVD]

ha, I did not know about this one
If I am not mistaken SNCB is also the European railway with the oldest logo, and one of the few with a logo created by a world class artist.

Exact, Henri Van De Velde. And we have also been the only ones allowed to use our logo in EVNs.

 

[Amstel]

Ah, Bruxelles Midi. Met a 20 year old American girl there in June 1969 and spent the summer hitch-hiking around Europe with her. Happy Days.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Exact, Henri Van De Velde. And we have also been the only ones allowed to use our logo in EVNs.

What are EVNs? Excuse my ignorance...

 

[bspahh]

What are EVNs? Excuse my ignorance...

I think its European Vehicle Number
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...r-train-numbers-to-come-into-effect-this-year

 

[AlbertBeale]

I think its European Vehicle Number
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...r-train-numbers-to-come-into-effect-this-year

Aha - thanks for explaining that!

 

[Taunton]

Gare du Midi has the connotation of "Gateway to the South"

Like Balham then ...

 

[TheSeeker]

A long time ago maybe, but today the population of Brussels is less than 10% dutch speaking.

Interestingly it seems that statistics on language usage are not allowed to be taken. They have to be inferred from things like car registrations and which language option of the paperwork is used.

I read somewhere that Spanish is thought to be Brussels second language after French.

 

[Beebman]

Interesting and informative video on the languages of Belgium:

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

And we have also been the only ones allowed to use our logo in EVNs.

Is that to avoid arguments over language (i.e. whether to write SNCB or NMBS)?