TOCs and the use of cheap agency platform staff

[Metal_gee_man]

I have noticed a large upswing in various large agencies supplying TOCs with staff who in effect are taking job roles that should and traditionally were carried out by TOC directly employed, TOC directly pensioned, TOC unionised employees who earn considerably more than their agency counterparts whilst undertaking some very important roles.
The main culprits for me are all the GOVIA Franchises, Contracts & Direct awards so SouthEastern, Thameslink, Great Northern, Southern using On-Trak, I've noticed an abundance of Adecco staff working for SWR as well.
Please add more if you know about others

My point is should TOCs be allowed to prioritise profits over safety?
As many of these people are not going through the industry safety training that a permanent, competent, full trained staff do, what apart from visability are they bringing to the company, because you'd assume they couldn't be experienced enough in revenue control to man barriers and check tickets. The TOCs can't be using them for safety critical roles such as train dispatch could they?
Well they are very heavily used in these tasks, I was "Lucky" enough to speak to one last night at Basingstoke at the Gateline, I asked him if a train had left yet based upon the time being exactly when it was due to leave and he grunted at me and said yes mate you missed it, to which I found out it left 4 minutes late via RTT.
I've seen people being let through barriers at Ashford Int because the person confused the On-Trak guy with some concessionary ticket bull which made me an enthusiast laugh so much because of how wrong this guy was.
Or the team of them at East Croydon Station with dispatch paddles in hand and whistles at the ready dispatching trains during peak hours.
So what other jobs are they taking away from their better paid colleagues at these TOCs?
I agree with them being used for crowd control at busy stations, I agree with them freeing up important TOC staff by cleaning toilets and cleaning the platforms. I think many are being used by SWR for security and welfare people too.
I just feel like it's a going too far putting profits over safety when they are regularly left unsupervised to carry out roles that shouldn't be in the agency sectors remit.
Sorry rant over

 

[JonathanH]

By employing agency staff, the company can secure a ready stream of new recruits who can eventually be given a 'proper job' once they have proven their abilities. It saves on the HR function of recruitment and the agency staff are happy to do the work.

The staffing of gatelines on Southern round the clock is no more than a deterrent to ticketless travel, particularly at a barrier remote to the main barrier line as the staff are pretty much unable to intervene if someone hasn't got a ticket.

Why is cleaning a job which it is acceptable to employ agency staff for when gateline isn't?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Well when you hear the stories on the Railway jobs forum that many of the On-trak people not even getting a look in at Southern it's not a constant stream as you call it.
In regards to toilets vs barriers argument, it stands to reason you don't need to be trained on how to mop a floor, but on what to accept and not at a barrier you do, you will have to be trained (hopefully) around fire evacuations and their responsibilities, how to handle confrontation and abuse. Offer advice on onward journeys.

 

[ComUtoR]

More staff > No staff.

I have noticed a large upswing in various large agencies supplying TOCs with staff who in effect are taking job roles that should and traditionally were carried out by TOC directly employed, TOC directly pensioned, TOC unionised employees who earn considerably more than their agency counterparts whilst undertaking some very important roles.

I think you misunderstand what they are being employed for.

My point is should TOCs be allowed to prioritise profits over safety?
As many of these people are not going through the industry safety training that a permanent, competent, full trained staff do, what apart from visability are they bringing to the company, because you'd assume they couldn't be experienced enough in revenue control to man barriers and check tickets. The TOCs can't be using them for safety critical roles such as train dispatch could they?

OnTrak also dispatch trains. Are you suggesting that they are not being trained to meet the correct standards. That would be a serious accusation.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

That would be a serious accusation

It would be, but does that also mean they know how to react to a one under, person trapped in door or just they know how to wave a paddle blow a whistle and follow the lead of a another dispatcher 200m up the platform?

 

[ComUtoR]

It would be, but does that also mean they know how to react to a one under, person trapped in door or just they know how to wave a paddle blow a whistle and follow the lead of a another dispatcher 200m up the platform?

Is that all you think they do ? You have a rather low opinion of them :/

If you really believe that they have not been trained or are meeting the current competency standards; you should report it.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have noticed a large upswing in various large agencies supplying TOCs with staff who in effect are taking job roles that should and traditionally were carried out by TOC directly employed, TOC directly pensioned, TOC unionised employees who earn considerably more than their agency counterparts whilst undertaking some very important roles.
The main culprits for me are all the GOVIA Franchises, Contracts & Direct awards so SouthEastern, Thameslink, Great Northern, Southern using On-Trak, I've noticed an abundance of Adecco staff working for SWR as well.
Please add more if you know about others

My point is should TOCs be allowed to prioritise profits over safety?
As many of these people are not going through the industry safety training that a permanent, competent, full trained staff do, what apart from visability are they bringing to the company, because you'd assume they couldn't be experienced enough in revenue control to man barriers and check tickets. The TOCs can't be using them for safety critical roles such as train dispatch could they?
Well they are very heavily used in these tasks, I was "Lucky" enough to speak to one last night at Basingstoke at the Gateline, I asked him if a train had left yet based upon the time being exactly when it was due to leave and he grunted at me and said yes mate you missed it, to which I found out it left 4 minutes late via RTT.
I've seen people being let through barriers at Ashford Int because the person confused the On-Trak guy with some concessionary ticket bull which made me an enthusiast laugh so much because of how wrong this guy was.
Or the team of them at East Croydon Station with dispatch paddles in hand and whistles at the ready dispatching trains during peak hours.
So what other jobs are they taking away from their better paid colleagues at these TOCs?
I agree with them being used for crowd control at busy stations, I agree with them freeing up important TOC staff by cleaning toilets and cleaning the platforms. I think many are being used by SWR for security and welfare people too.
I just feel like it's a going too far putting profits over safety when they are regularly left unsupervised to carry out roles that shouldn't be in the agency sectors remit.
Sorry rant over

My view is that the TOC is responsible for all relevant issues, notably anything related to safety. Do you have any facts that suggest this is not the case ?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I don't have facts, but purely observations but as an outside looking on would I feel happier a SWR person dispatched or an Adecco Rail person I know my choice.

 

[Carlisle]

My point is should TOCs be allowed to prioritise profits over safety?

Always interesting to debate these sort of issues but these now rather tired mantras aren’t the most productive way to do so

 

[ComUtoR]

I have full confidence that an OnTrak person dispatches my train to the same standard a permanent employee does.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I actually feel sorry for agency staff doing these jobs - I see quite a few security officers at Leeds floating around the platforms wearing Hi-Viz jackets. They are generally helpful people doing quite a thankless role.

I know station coordinators are on a zero hour contract and I suspect other TOC related agency roles are very similar. Staff are guaranteed X number of hours a week but can sometimes find themselves laid off without any notice. Also if staff ring up unable to come to work because of sickness or other genuine reasons they do not get paid & in some cases I've known people be told ''Don't bother coming in!'' by the agency as they get other willing candidates to take their place.

Having done a bit of agency work myself, I know full well how people in agency jobs just get used & abused. The recent Ken Loach film ''Sorry We Missed You'' sums up the way of life for many agency people - they are getting by on minimum wages and working long unsociable hours and not getting the rewards or perks as a full time employee.

I know a couple of forum members on here have stated they work in station based agency roles and have applied for jobs with their associated TOCs only to be overlooked in favour of other 'outside' candidates. There does appear to be a consensus that people running these agencies are like sharks who are there to offer their workers to any organisation and are definitely milking the benefits over the foot soldiers doing the leg work on the ground. TOCs and other organisations have the freedom to dispense with the services of agency staff at any time depending on the needs of the business so clearly this is an advantage rather than recruiting people on permanent contracts who are far more difficult to dispense with.

As Metal_gee_man has quite rightly said - safety is being compromised in some cases because agency staff are simply not being given the correct training. There is of course a very small number of agency staff who have a really poor attitude - they are doing a job they don't like, their personal circumstances are not great, and in some cases one or two characters have been forced into these jobs by the Benefits Agency who have threatened to stop their Universal Credit!!! They have a 'couldn't care less attitude', generally skive most of the time and are not bothered about any repercussions (being dismissed for their behaviour/performance). I've seen this type of attitude on warehouse & factory floors - the other worrying thing about how agencies operator is that they do not really 'vet' their workers before sending them somewhere. You can have petty thieves working in warehouses where they have access to millions of pounds worth of merchandise. I've also seen people with potential learning difficulties doing agency jobs and being given responsibilities they should not be doing!!!

I'd like to think some of the agency people I've seen working in warehouses and factories never end up working in a train station environment. Thankfully, everyone I've met and spoken to who seem to be station agency staff are doing a really good job and are very keen on what they do.

CJ

 

[ComUtoR]

As Metal_gee_man has quite rightly said - safety is being compromised in some cases because agency staff are simply not being given the correct training.

Another accusation of safety being compromised. I believe you have just started with a TOC. You need to report this ASAP.

 

[Robertj21a]

I actually feel sorry for agency staff doing these jobs - I see quite a few security officers at Leeds floating around the platforms wearing Hi-Viz jackets. They are generally helpful people doing quite a thankless role.

I know station coordinators are on a zero hour contract and I suspect other TOC related agency roles are very similar. Staff are guaranteed X number of hours a week but can sometimes find themselves laid off without any notice. Also if staff ring up unable to come to work because of sickness or other genuine reasons they do not get paid & in some cases I've known people be told ''Don't bother coming in!'' by the agency as they get other willing candidates to take their place.

Having done a bit of agency work myself, I know full well how people in agency jobs just get used & abused. The recent Ken Loach film ''Sorry We Missed You'' sums up the way of life for many agency people - they are getting by on minimum wages and working long unsociable hours and not getting the rewards or perks as a full time employee.

I know a couple of forum members on here have stated they work in station based agency roles and have applied for jobs with their associated TOCs only to be overlooked in favour of other 'outside' candidates. There does appear to be a consensus that people running these agencies are like sharks who are there to offer their workers to any organisation and are definitely milking the benefits over the foot soldiers doing the leg work on the ground. TOCs and other organisations have the freedom to dispense with the services of agency staff at any time depending on the needs of the business so clearly this is an advantage rather than recruiting people on permanent contracts who are far more difficult to dispense with.

As Metal_gee_man has quite rightly said - safety is being compromised in some cases because agency staff are simply not being given the correct training. There is of course a very small number of agency staff who have a really poor attitude - they are doing a job they don't like, their personal circumstances are not great, and in some cases one or two characters have been forced into these jobs by the Benefits Agency who have threatened to stop their Universal Credit!!! They have a 'couldn't care less attitude', generally skive most of the time and are not bothered about any repercussions (being dismissed for their behaviour/performance). I've seen this type of attitude on warehouse & factory floors - the other worrying thing about how agencies operator is that they do not really 'vet' their workers before sending them somewhere. You can have petty thieves working in warehouses where they have access to millions of pounds worth of merchandise. I've also seen people with potential learning difficulties doing agency jobs and being given responsibilities they should not be doing!!!

I'd like to think some of the agency people I've seen working in warehouses and factories never end up working in a train station environment. Thankfully, everyone I've met and spoken to who seem to be station agency staff are doing a really good job and are very keen on what they do.

CJ

This just sounds like a rant by someone with a chip on their shoulder about the use of agency staff in general.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Another accusation of safety being compromised. I believe you have just started with a TOC. You need to report this ASAP.

As someone who obviously claims to know his onions, you've heard our opinions and what we think is going on, you feel that you need to prove us wrong but have offered nothing in return other than suggest we contact the TOCs involved to express our unknowledgable opinions.
If such staff are qualified then something that signifys this would put people tongues at rest, or stop the accusations as you put it.
How do we know rules for example on a 12 car platform, does there only one safety critical, fully trained member of staff on the platform and 2 On-trak assistants ensuring departure and those 2 assistants do they have to be trained also or can they just be wet behind the ears staff. I have no idea.
So enlighten us oh font of knowledge and rules because as we've said from the outside looking in, it doesn't look/feel right

 

[Facing Back]

I don't have much domain knowledge so I'm happy to be corrected but I disagree in principle with the idea that agency staff are all bad. Personally I'm not a fan or zero hours contracts and as an employer don't use them - but I have a number of friends who love being on them so it takes allsorts.

I generally have the view that a core of permanent staff and a selection of temporary/agency staff is a good model. You can deal with peaks and troughs, it helps scaleability, and it should be good for the customer and the bottom line both. Not all agencies are good - but not all employees are good either. Agencies tend to be incentivised to do a reasonable job - if not there are other agencies out there. However this relies on them being managed well and all to often that doesn't happen.

If a role is safety critical and requires a level of certification then why can't an agency provide that? - I suspect that I'll get shot down here - but in other regulated industries its the qualification that matters, not who employs you.

And for non-core work - and I would include security - why not employ an expert to do this?

My point above about the agencies not being managed well though is my key one - if you don't know how to do this or cant be bothered then don't do it.

 

[jon0844]

If anyone thinks agency staff aren't properly trained, why not ask (or just look for) their safety critical dispatch licence?

I believe all staff, even those in a ticket office, are taught how to stop a train in an emergency. I assume that goes for agency staff. Likewise if agency staff are doing safety critical work then despite the negatives of a zero hour contract, they must be getting paid a fairly good hourly wage.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Facing Back

I think you've emphasised by own point about agency people - the vast majority of them are 'grafters' - people wanting the work and eager to get a foot in the door somewhere, very much like the ladies & gents I've seen working in the stations. But again, my overall point was that there are good and bad in every job - even the police has plenty of rotten apples!!!

My overall criticism is directed at agency employers or 'recruitment consultants' as they credit themselves - some of their working methods are a little devious and I do feel that many agency workers do get a raw deal sometimes and they can often be between a rock & a hard place trying to make a living.

CJ

 

[Facing Back]

Facing Back

I think you've emphasised by own point about agency people - the vast majority of them are 'grafters' - people wanting the work and eager to get a foot in the door somewhere, very much like the ladies & gents I've seen working in the stations. But again, my overall point was that there are good and bad in every job - even the police has plenty of rotten apples!!!

My overall criticism is directed at agency employers or 'recruitment consultants' as they credit themselves - some of their working methods are a little devious and I do feel that many agency workers do get a raw deal sometimes and they can often be between a rock & a hard place trying to make a living.

CJ

I can certainly agree with that. I've come across many agencies/recruitment firms who behave poorly. I've also worked as a client with large consultancies where one job is wonderful and the next a major pain in the proverbial - the difference being the senior management they applied to the account.

And I guess whilst I'm on my hobby horse - I do quite a lot of work "recovering" failing deals, especially outsources - and I still maintain that the client is to blame as often as the supplier.

I do agree that way too many workers get a raw deal and that should absolutely be dealt with.

 

[LowLevel]

A friend did dispatch work for an agency for TPE at Manchester Piccadilly. 12 hour shifts, minimum wage, no proper cover - having to run between platform 1-4 and 13-14 all the time when they were short.

Proper rubbish.

 

[Aictos]

If anyone thinks agency staff aren't properly trained, why not ask (or just look for) their safety critical dispatch licence?

I believe all staff, even those in a ticket office, are taught how to stop a train in an emergency. I assume that goes for agency staff. Likewise if agency staff are doing safety critical work then despite the negatives of a zero hour contract, they must be getting paid a fairly good hourly wage.

Indeed, if they don’t have it on them then regardless of them being qualified or not they shouldn’t be involved in any part of the dispatch process.

If they’re awaiting a replacement then a paper licence can suffice but the SCWID (safety critical work ID) is considered part of the equipment as is hi vis, whistle and T Key.

I think the OP does have a massive chip on their shoulder about TOCs using agency staff tho because even if they’re on minimum wage, they are trained to the same standards as TOC staff and to say different is absolute rubbish.

The only difference in training is gateline based as agency staff are not trained on PFs or MG11s but that’s not the responsibility of the TOC rather the agency itself.

 

[2L70]

A friend did dispatch work for an agency for TPE at Manchester Piccadilly. 12 hour shifts, minimum wage, no proper cover - having to run between platform 1-4 and 13-14 all the time when they were short.

Proper rubbish.

Same setup at Leeds, they might wear TPE uniform but are employed by Carlisle Group. Gone on for at least 12 years.
There’s another thread about their dispatch procedures somewhere else.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I think the OP does have a massive chip on their shoulder about TOCs using agency staff tho because even if they’re on minimum wage

I do have a massive chip on my shoulder about it, its a professional industry now having their pay, terms and conditions eroded away all for the benefit of the shareholder. Paying a platform colleague with all the tickets £23-25k a year, more based on shift allowances vs paying someone earning minimum wage or pence above who is not guaranteed hours, sending them home early to save money and giving them the very basic tools to do their job (no continued improvement) shows what the TOCs think about their benefit to the railway.
Saving £5-8k a year + Pension rights per person mounts up over say 1000 staff, it could end up saving close to £10m a year and that's the margins some of the TOCs are running on.

 

[Hadders]

I have some sympathy with the OP’s argument but a couple of observations:

Few TOC employed staff are fully trained in ticketing matters, a quick look at the fares section of this forum shows that so trying so say that agency staff are poorly trained when TOC staff are fully trained isn’t necessarily true.

Any business does potentially need flexibility to increase and decrease labour at relative short notice, e.g. large events, Peak Christmas party season etc. It makes sense to use agency staff to do this.

Of course agency staff should have the correct training for any safety critical work. If the OP does not believe this to be the case then they must report it.

 

[ComUtoR]

As someone who obviously claims to know his onions, you've heard our opinions and what we think is going on, you feel that you need to prove us wrong but have offered nothing in return other than suggest we contact the TOCs involved to express our unknowledgable opinions.

You are making a very serious accusation. Without evidence. It is a very serious accusation. The first thing anyone must do when they suspect that safety is being compromised is to report it. That is not trying to prove you wrong. Its offering you the best advice possible.

If such staff are qualified then something that signifys this would put people tongues at rest, or stop the accusations as you put it.

Me stating I would happily accept them dispatching my train should offer peace of mind. It is people like me who are at the pointy end dealing with these agency staff carrying out the safety critical task of dispatch.

How do we know rules for example on a 12 car platform, does there only one safety critical, fully trained member of staff on the platform and 2 On-trak assistants ensuring departure and those 2 assistants do they have to be trained also or can they just be wet behind the ears staff. I have no idea.

So why are you throwing accusations around quite casually ? Do you honestly believe that unqualified staff carry out these tasks ?

So enlighten us oh font of knowledge and rules because as we've said from the outside looking in, it doesn't look/feel right

Because, quite simply, the railway does not allow safety critical staff to dispatch trains without a license. Oh and er... I know the guy who does their assessments.

Feel free to check what they are doing :

https://catalogues.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-SS1 Iss 6.pdf
This is the link for the Station dispatch rule book module

Any TOC breaking standards would be in quite serious trouble :

https://catalogues.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/RIS-3703-TOM Iss 3.pdf

3.5 Training and assessment
3.5.1 All staff involved in the train dispatch process shall be trained and assessed on a regular basis in line with company competence management systems, including the following:

a) The staff’s understanding of the train dispatch corridor.
b) The modes of train dispatch for each location.
c) The dispatch plans
d) Procedures for degraded dispatch.
e) Variations of rolling stock and train formations.
f) Any identified risks.

3.5.2 Records of all training and assessment shall be kept and maintained in a robust manner in line with company competency management systems

 

[Aictos]

I do have a massive chip on my shoulder about it, its a professional industry now having their pay, terms and conditions eroded away all for the benefit of the shareholder. Paying a platform colleague with all the tickets £23-25k a year, more based on shift allowances vs paying someone earning minimum wage or pence above who is not guaranteed hours, sending them home early to save money and giving them the very basic tools to do their job (no continued improvement) shows what the TOCs think about their benefit to the railway.
Saving £5-8k a year + Pension rights per person mounts up over say 1000 staff, it could end up saving close to £10m a year and that's the margins some of the TOCs are running on.

My point is that regardless of being TOC or Agency they are trained to the same standards.

Indeed I just had it confirmed that TOC Assessors who assess TOC dispatchers also assess any agency staff to the same standards.

Agency staff also have to follow the same rules as TOC staff eg hours worked, alcohol, hours between shifts etc so I think that you’re out of order for claiming that agency staff are not trained to the same standards as TOC staff.

 

[Antman]

This just sounds like a rant by someone with a chip on their shoulder about the use of agency staff in general.

That's exactly what I thought, my experience of agency work has been far more positive.

 

[LowLevel]

For dispatch they are undoubtedly trained to the same standard.

The argument with regards to their hours, working conditions and treatment and whether they are being used to cover properly remunerated staff with rights and appropriate benefits is a different one.

 

[ComUtoR]

https://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/train-d...s/ontrak-recruitment/p41900?keywords=platform

Ontrak Recruitment & Training are actively seeking committed and outgoing Train Dispatchers to support our client across different locations.

Please be aware that this is shift work and you will need to be flexible.

£8.92 - £16.47

Duties include but are not limited to:

• Adhering to the rule book at all times
• Remaining present on the platform for the whole of your shift
• Ensuring health and safety is adhered to
• Being familiar with local instructions, the dispatch plan, general memos and notices for each station you are passed out at
• Making station announcements
• The safe and timely dispatch of trains
• You must report and log on the internal database all cancellations, alterations and delays to train departure times
• Being vigilant and visible to all customers and other members of staff
• Managing difficult situations
• Comply with all safety requirements as defined, ensuring personal safety and that of others at all times
• Ensuring up to date record keeping including log books, security checks, incident forms and completing BTP reports
• Help passengers with luggage and buggies (once the parent/carer has taken the child out of the buggy first)
• Assisting customers with the usage of lifts
• Communicate effectively with other staff and passengers in the interests of safety and customer service using information systems as supplied
• Station security including the HOT protocol
• Report irregularities, equipment failures or any incident affecting, or which may affect, the safety of the line or service to the customer
• Provide outstanding customer service: travel information, passenger assistance for purchasing tickets and updating information as and when required
• Making announcements on the handheld radio (if required)
• Carry out emergency procedures as locally specified on your induction
• Ensuring the station is always well presented
• Cleaning duties may include the following: Emptying of the bins, litter picking, maintaining rest room facilities and changing display boards. You may also be required to carry out winter precautions (such as shovelling and laying out grit)
• Supporting with the implementation of crowd control plans as directed by the Station Manager
• Dealing with assisted travel
• Working alone

https://twitter.com/OntrakUKltd
They have a Twitter page, you can freely ask them questions and raise your concerns directly.

http://www.ontrakrecruitment.co.uk/
Their Corporate website

https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Ontrak-Recruitment/reviews
Review page from their employees. Bit of a mixed bag of reviews but overall positive.

Just because someone works for an agency, it doesn't make them any lesser of an employee. Especially in an industry like the railway where there are strict rules and regulations that must be adhered to.

 

[2L70]

Point No 2 - no breaks then in a Safety Critical job?

 

[221129]

that many of the On-trak people not even getting a look in at Southern

One person is not many.