Why are there no sleeper services between London and continental Europe?

[maddeningcrowds]

There are sleeper services between a number of major cities in continental Europe e.g. Barcelona/Madrid-->Paris, Paris-->places in Germany and northern Italy.

Just wondering if there are any reasons why, now we have the Channel Tunel, there are no similair services serving London?

(I know you can connect via Eurostar in Paris, but that adds time, expense and hassle.)

 

[Failed Unit]

There are sleeper services between a number of major cities in continental Europe e.g. Barcelona/Madrid-->Paris, Paris-->places in Germany and northern Italy.

Just wondering if there are any reasons why, now we have the Channel Tunel, there are no similair services serving London?

(I know you can connect via Eurostar in Paris, but that adds time, expense and hassle.)

Now that is a can of worms, in short we built lots of nightstar stock along came the budget airline so we sold it all at a loss to Canada without carrying a single UK passenger. They said it would never make any money - who knows if it would have done, but when you think about it the Scottish ones are heavily subsidised.

 

[shinkansen1966]

There is a seasonal overnight eurostar service from London to the French Alps.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

But it's not a proper sleeper service, namely one with bunks/beds or whatever they call them in this new fangled day and age, it's like the open seating coaches on the Night Riviera or Sleepers to Scotland. Uncomfortable.

 

[Failed Unit]

But it's not a proper sleeper service, namely one with bunks/beds or whatever they call them in this new fangled day and age, it's like the open seating coaches on the Night Riviera or Sleepers to Scotland. Uncomfortable.

But the bar is open

 

[jamesontheroad]

Now that is a can of worms, in short we built lots of nightstar stock along came the budget airline so we sold it all at a loss to Canada without carrying a single UK passenger. They said it would never make any money - who knows if it would have done, but when you think about it the Scottish ones are heavily subsidised.

The Nightstar could have been the train the OP is imagining, but it's highly unlikely. As Failed Unit has said, the stock was sold to VIA Rail Canada before it could enter service, for many many reasons.

1... the budget airlines suddenly came on the scene, offering unheard-of £50 returns to Europe. Suddenly travel to Europe was cheap.
2... the trains were designed to be upscale sleepers... many of the bedrooms were en-suite (and therefore the carriages needed very heavy water tanks) and the whole design was centred around a premium experience and therefore premium fare that would never have been competitive with the low-cost airlines
3... the Nightstar was a technical disaster. With the water tanks mentioned above, it would have had an axle weight too great for many UK railway lines, immediately putting the kaibosh on any plans for through services from the UK regions to continental Europe. Secondly, IIRC the whole rake of carriages would have drawn more current than could reasonably have been supplied by the overhead power (although I'll need a more technically minded forum member to explain this one). Basically the train would have needed two locomotives or even an additional generator van just to power it.
4... despite being based on the BR mk. 4 (?), the carriages were effectively a new design... they were untested and unproven. A huge start-up expense would have been involved in getting them into service.

All these discoveries were made at the same time. It was the perfect storm for the Nightstar. Through trains from London and other regional UK cities to European cities could have worked then and could work now, but the Nightstar was not the train for the job. It was over-specified and would never have been competitive. Perhaps now, with the possibility of competing services through the chunnel, SNCF, DB, Eurostar and others could possibly pave the way for high speed daytime services between the UK and continental Europe. But I suspect the precise safety specifications required by the Chunnel will prevent sleeper services from being viable for a while yet.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

So far reasons seem to be: (a) historical decisions on rolling stock (b) channel tunnel safety requirements limits rolling stock choices. Any other reasons?

 

[Old Timer]

There was also a realisation that the market was simply not there at that time.

Businessmen make day long journeys or stay over. For example you can fly to Germany, work for pretty much all of the day and fly home that night. Going by train would take up additional time and would cost as much as, or more than a flight.

Remember that all sleeper services within the UK were losing money, and were only ever kept on for Political reasons.

Whilst there might be a possible market for seasonal and holiday traffic, the fact that pretty much every airline is full leaving the UK at 0600/0700 every weekday morning when there is a Eurostar demonstrates the point to a degree.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

But the bar is open

No wonder you're hyper!

 

[Greenback]

The Nightstar could have been the train the OP is imagining, but it's highly unlikely. As Failed Unit has said, the stock was sold to VIA Rail Canada before it could enter service, for many many reasons.

1... the budget airlines suddenly came on the scene, offering unheard-of £50 returns to Europe. Suddenly travel to Europe was cheap.
2... the trains were designed to be upscale sleepers... many of the bedrooms were en-suite (and therefore the carriages needed very heavy water tanks) and the whole design was centred around a premium experience and therefore premium fare that would never have been competitive with the low-cost airlines
3... the Nightstar was a technical disaster. With the water tanks mentioned above, it would have had an axle weight too great for many UK railway lines, immediately putting the kaibosh on any plans for through services from the UK regions to continental Europe. Secondly, IIRC the whole rake of carriages would have drawn more current than could reasonably have been supplied by the overhead power (although I'll need a more technically minded forum member to explain this one). Basically the train would have needed two locomotives or even an additional generator van just to power it.
4... despite being based on the BR mk. 4 (?), the carriages were effectively a new design... they were untested and unproven. A huge start-up expense would have been involved in getting them into service.

All these discoveries were made at the same time. It was the perfect storm for the Nightstar. Through trains from London and other regional UK cities to European cities could have worked then and could work now, but the Nightstar was not the train for the job. It was over-specified and would never have been competitive. Perhaps now, with the possibility of competing services through the chunnel, SNCF, DB, Eurostar and others could possibly pave the way for high speed daytime services between the UK and continental Europe. But I suspect the precise safety specifications required by the Chunnel will prevent sleeper services from being viable for a while yet.

It's a great shame that the circumstances combined in the way that they did. We would have loved to have got on a sleeper at Swansea and arrived in Paris the next morning. It would have been possible to leave Wales after a day in work and have morning coffee in France!

 

[Drimnagh Road]

There are countless numbers of Sleeper trains across Europe, connecting here there and everywhere.

It is very hard for the big wigs to say that there is no market there when it was never tried, Swansea / Manchester / Glasgow etc through to Europe maybe a bit ambitious, but London to the European cities I'm sure could work, were it not for the infrastructure.

The problem is that there are no loco hauled passenger trains going through the tunnel or on the CTRL, and it is unlikely there ever will be due to the high speed of the latter, so its not like you can hook one or two sleepers onto the rear of a train, which is fine in Europe, and how it is feasable.

It is fascinating standing in Zagreb for example, see a train arrive from destination x with two Sleepers, a shunter engine takes one "through" sleeper from it and shunts it onto another train that has just arrived from somewhere else and is going to destination y. Then the shunter returns and takes the second sleeper and hooks it on to yet a different train going to destination z.

Also, Europe isn't as stringent as UK when it comes to such things as propelling with people onboard, or else the above wouldn't be possible.

"Sleeper Trains" are very rearly actual whole sleeper trains, generally its the usual European formation of Composites with a Couchette and Sleeper coach added on. A train conveying sleeper accomodation would be more the appropriate way to describe Europe.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Greenback, If you want to you can always catch the 0353/0358 Swansea to Padd & you can then catch the 0855 to Paris & be there for lunch. That's if you can stay awake.
Then have just about 5hrs in Paris, catch the 1713 back to London arr 1829, then the 1915/2015 to Swansea arriving back 2219/2319.

 

[Greenback]

I have caught the 03xx (the first time it was 0304 IIRC!) on many occasions through the years, but have never gone on to Paris from it!

It's lucky to have a 'night' train, and could be said to be the enxt best thing to a 'proper' overnight service.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Are the European services subsidised?

 

[Justin Smith]

The lack of sleeper services is a bit surprising, the wife and I would possibly use one, but only if it went from Doncaster, or even better from Sheffield !
If it only went from London most of its advantage would be lost for us, a bit like Eurostars in fact.......
Furthermore the sleeper would have to have decent cabins, defn with a sink and preferably with a loo and even a shower, like the Tren Hotel we caught from Paris to Madrid. That was great apart from the slightly dodgey ride (we had an end cabin) which I put down to the lack of bogies, it's an articulated set with a single axle at each articulation.
The thing is that nice cabins on sleeper trains are really pretty expensive. You could get a couchette or a 4 berth shared cabin cheaper but we wouldn't be doing that, no thanks.
On the other hand, don't talk to me about "low cost airlines". We've never been able to get one of these mega cheap deals. We're going to Sorrento/Naples with Thomson fly in September (booked over 4 months in advance) and it's costing us £260 each all in. Now that's not cheap......

 

[jamesontheroad]

There are countless numbers of Sleeper trains across Europe, connecting here there and everywhere.

There are, but I would be surprised if any were profitable. SNCF has completely downgraded its domestic sleeper services to very basic couchette service. Branded as Corail Lunéa, berths are simply provided with basic sleepsacks that you don't undress to sleep in. There's no bar or restaurant carriage either, just a couple of vending machines in one of the carriages.

 

[Greenback]

There's been a reduction in night trains in the last few years, partly because of the spread of high speed lines, partly because of airline competition and partly due to the recession.

 

[merlodlliw]

The night ferry comes to mind, all French stock, used to see it arrive in Victoria
alas long since gone.

 

[gordonthemoron]

even DB seem to have cut back sleepers. The Munich-Hamburg & Munich-Berlin sets were 24 (short) carriage Talgo sets until last December, they are now a combined 12 carriage train (6 each) using normal CNL stock. Also, there aren't many buffet cars on the trains these days. However, they are well used when I have travelled on them, which is fairly often. Will be doing Düsseldorf-Munich, Munich-Köln & Hamburg-Regensburg (austrian) this month

 

[Drsatan]

Because Britain hasn't signed up to the Schengen agreement passport and customs checks would still need to be done, probably at the station where the train starts. However, DafT regulations require segregated platforms for international services (at St Pancras the Eurostar platforms are fenced off) and space for passport control and baggage checks, which would be difficult at some stations. Stopping at intermediate stations (a sleeper from Manchester Piccadilly to Paris might stop at Crewe, Stafford, Rugby, Watford Junction etc) would present problems since passport control facilities would have to be set up before the train arrived and the platform at which the train arrived would have to be closed off well before the train's arrival to stop passengers from boarding without going through passport control.

One solution would be to build holding sidings on the French and English sides of the Channel Tunnel. Thus, a sleeper heading to France would stop at the holding sidings on the French side so passport checks and baggage searches could be carried out (although this would be difficult without disturbing passengers - one solution might be to ask passengers to give their passports to the train manager) and vice versa.

Since 92s are cleared for the CTRL and LGV Nord a London - Paris sleeper could operate on those lines, although any rolling stock would require a safety case to operate on both lines and comply with the (IMO too strict) safety requirements for the Channel Tunnel, namely the requirement for trains to be able to split in the middle in case of fire. If CTRL and LGV Nord authorisation wasn't forthcoming then in theory, a London to Paris sleeper could be routed from St Pancras and along the North London Line to Willesden Junction, along the West London Line to Clapham Junction, then via Wandsworth Road and Crystal Palace to Beckenham Junction. From then, the train would run via Bromley South to Ashford, through the Channel Tunnel then along the 'ligne classique' from Calais to Paris.

 

[Heinz57]

In my opinion, even if there was a sleeper between London and the continent, there just wouldn't be any business for it.

Firstly there is the normal Eurostar service, which can get you from London to Paris in is it an hour? I'm not sure I've never trvelled Eurostar

But on top of that there is the airlines, with services to the continent from major airports from accross the country. National carriers such as BA or Air France can get you to Paris for about £50 - £60, and then theres there's the budget airlines, they can get you to europe for next to nothing. And flights to Paris are only about 45 mins.

With prices and times like that, I don't think people would want to pay and travel on a sleeper train, when rather than being cooped up in a train carrige over night, they could be sitting sipping a nice cold one in a Paris bar.

Just my 2p

 

[Greenback]

I agree that for journeys such as London to Paris a sleeper is a no hoper. Where sleepers may have a role to play, and I'm not entirely sure that they do, is for longer journeys.

 

[caughtonatrain]

While I don't disagree with anything that's been said here - the consensus being that the market for UK-continental sleepers is probably not there - are we not overlooking one major thing?

The domestic / short-haul air market as we know it has to be on the way out. The ridiculously low fares are just not sustainable as a business model; from a climate/carbon/simple energy efficiency point of view there's big pressure to develop alternatives. Heathrow runway 3 is dead.

Yet, the nature of the new ("knowledge/creative") economy places a premium on being able to travel. Also, the market for tourism is well developed and probably will remain so. To reconcile these two competing things suggests the need for (at least) a European high speed rail network (which as we know is under development). But it also suggests that there *could* be a market, some way in the future perhaps, for increased sleeper services throughout Europe and especially between UK and rest of Europe.

It's a classic catch 22: the market won't develop without a proven network; and nobody will develop such a network of services commercially without a proven market. Therefore, if governments are serious about climate etc they need to *create* the market by investing up front in the services in a big way. It's why infrastructure-heavy solutions to big problems will always need subsidy.

 

[Greenback]

I agree. I don't see a way for sleepers to make money at the moment, but that will change in the future! We have yet to see the full results of the fall out from the ash cloud - no pun intended!

Still, high speed rail is a major factor in whether an overnight journey will be seen as attractive - people do seem to prefer an earlier start and a sleep in their own bed if they can get somewhere by 0900 or 0930!

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Thanks for all your answers.

I enjoyed the idea but it seems it is more a fantasy at the moment than a real possibility.

 

[Oliver]

The domestic / short-haul air market as we know it has to be on the way out. The ridiculously low fares are just not sustainable as a business model; from a climate/carbon/simple energy efficiency point of view there's big pressure to develop alternatives. Heathrow runway 3 is dead.

However sleepers are much less energy efficient than day trains because their coaches require just as much energy to tow around the countryside but they carry about one quarter the number of passengers. The other snag is that sleeper coaches can do a single one-way trip per 24 hours, compared to a day train which can do many more daily revenue miles. As the annual leasing costs are going to be similar, the cost of a sleeper per passenger mile is much greater.

 

[spoony]

But the bar is open

Reasonably priced too. Plus our berth was comfy, we had the disabled berth so there was plenty of room to move

 

[mickey]

It's a classic catch 22: the market won't develop without a proven network; and nobody will develop such a network of services commercially without a proven market. Therefore, if governments are serious about climate etc they need to *create* the market by investing up front in the services in a big way. It's why infrastructure-heavy solutions to big problems will always need subsidy.

I agree entirely.

IMO there is little market for through night trains north of London - they'd have to stop at too many places to make it worthwhile. You'd never convince people they'd have to travel to another town to get one - e.g. Leeds/Liverpool/Preston would not like having to travel to Manchester first, which is the only way we could do it with our refusal to join Schengen.*

From London, however, I think there definitely would be a market, particularly for journeys up to 12hrs, e.g. to Switzerland, Germany (via Brussels, to be split into Berlin and Koln/Munich/Vienna sections), and Spain. They'd have to be primarily couchette-based - there's little market for wagons-lits nowadays, hence why the nightstar failed. Let's not forget that low-cost airlines are not merely a UK phenomenon, and German sleepers remain popular despite the best efforts of Ryanair/easyJet/AirBerlin/Germanwings/etc.

*I'm reminded of an old story from an old airline marketing executive... The reason the big American airline companies stopped serving Scotland is because no matter how much they tried they could never get people from Edinburgh to fly from Glasgow or vice-versa, and the market wasn't big enough for two flights. People would rather fly to Amsterdam or Heathrow to connect than drive an hour down the M8.

 

[A60K]

It's not Schengen that's the problem at all - that's easily solved, as they do across all the other outer Schengen border crossings, by having staff joining the train at, for example, Ashford and alighting at Calais and vice versa, and doing passport checks walking through the train.

The big problem at the moment is the security checks (for explosives and other nasties) needed before passengers and their baggage board the train, as the high profile nature of the Channel Tunnel makes it an obvious target. Unfortunately just as the threat of Irish terrorism went away a new one arrived.

 

[caliwag]

I met a guy a few years ago who was heading up a small team to explore the employment of double-deck sleepers from St pancras to Barcelona...I kid you not. He'd gone as far as general agreements, build design and costings, timetabling etc. His idea was to target the business market...arrive in Spain refreshed etc etc.
I believe his father was quite big in Spanish railways, which I guess would help.

There was an article in one of the journals (perhaps Rail Future) a year or two ago probably to time with the St P opening. I have tried googling but to no avail. Perhaps someone with an extensive journal indexing system and a spare Saturday (perhaps during the World Cup) could narrow down the search.