Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

[High Dyke]

That seems deeply unfair, fine him once for the outbound journey, but he had to get home surely?

Well, that was the point. The person concerned was advised to return on the next available train, but chose to ignore the police. I'm sorry, but i don't have sympathy for people like that; much the same as i wouldn't be expecting any solidarity from fellow humans if I'd been that person.

 

[bramling]

If we continue on the basis that the COVID symptoms to isolate for are a new persistent cough or a temperature, that's not going to catch anyone with hay fever, as that does neither of those things. Vigilantes might, but there should be NO vigilanteism of any kind here.

Depends how one defines persistent. Some days I could be coughing pretty regularly, then other days not at all. It would be a new cough in that it normally starts to manifest about now.

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm not sure I'd call it a new persistent cough, though, rather one relating to an existing condition.

In my case a cough is a secondary symptom of hayfever, caused by a build-up of catarrh in the throat following inflammation of the nasal passages. Nevertheless, I imagine that hayfever could mask the symptoms of a mild Covid-19 infection, while the coughing and sneezing would help transmit the virus particles to people nearby. Therefore going out during a hayfever attack might well attract the attention of the police as well as vigilantes.

 

[Meerkat]

In my case a cough is a secondary symptom of hayfever, caused by a build-up of catarrh in the throat following inflammation of the nasal passages. Nevertheless, I imagine that hayfever could mask the symptoms of a mild Covid-19 infection, while the coughing and sneezing would help transmit the virus particles to people nearby. Therefore going out during a hayfever attack might well attract the attention of the police as well as vigilantes.

If it’s a catarrh cough it won’t be a Covid dry cough

 

[bramling]

If it’s a catarrh cough it won’t be a Covid dry cough

I thought it was the case that CV19 could also produce a non-dry cough, even though a dry one is more common?

Certainly the guideline is a “new and continuous cough” rather than specifying any particular type of cough - although this could be for the sake of keeping things simple.

I’m reasonably sure my current cough is hayfever related, but it does beg the question as to whether I should be isolating. I could well have a cough of sorts from now until July if it’s a bad year pollen wise.

 

[kieron]

Ah. Fair enough. But that should require at least a diagnosis letter, otherwise it puts coppers in an impossible situation.

There would need to be some sort of evidence, or else someone could make something up on the spot. I have no idea what would be enough, though. The children for whose families the solicitors were acting had something in writing about them spending time outdoors, but an adult who has capacty won't need anything like that.

If I was in that situation I would start by gathering together the evidence I have, and finding out what evidence I could obtain if I needed it. Then I'd start looking for advice.

 

[bramling]

BTP were enforcing at Lincoln today. One 'poor chap' got fined twice. He'd arrived by train to allegedly visit his bank...on a public holiday. So he got penalised for arriving, but then decided not to return straight back on the next available train - and was promptly given a second fine.

Seems fair enough to me. Perhaps he got the message after the second fine.

It does beg the question as to whether the current fines are sufficient. Must admit I’d be tempted to look at withdrawing people’s furlough payments if they fail to follow the guidelines, seems eminently fair to me plus would certainly provide some incentive.

 

[yorksrob]

Hasn't it been said that a fair percentage of people that have had it have had NO symptoms at all? So they may not even be aware.

This is true.

However, short of everyone isolating all the time, there's no way of them knowing to self-isolate.

Plus, if they've no symptoms, they're not going to be coughing droplets everywhere so much.

 

[kieron]

It does beg the question as to whether the current fines are sufficient. Must admit I’d be tempted to look at withdrawing people’s furlough payments if they fail to follow the guidelines, seems eminently fair to me plus would certainly provide some incentive.

What about people who are working? Fine them a few days' wages? I think there's a country in Scandinavia which does that sort of thing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

(Though really in these post-Brexit times it ought to be 2 proud, sturdy British imperial yards, and not those nasty foreign meter thingies.)

Well, we adopted metrication as a policy in 1965 before joining the EU, requested by UK trade and industry bodies.
British (and American) scientists have used metric units since the 1860s.
Brexit doesn't change the policy, as it will be written into UK law.

 

[Mogster]

Trawling the ONS website I found older weekly death stats. It seems Christmas 1999 was a particularly bad flu season. The second column is deaths in 1000s, the third column ILI per 100,000 of population. It’ll be interesting to see how the following weeks compare to this. 4 weeks of 15,000+ seems very high. Incidentally 16237 from January 2015 is the most recent highest figure before the 16387 reported today.

https://static.ons.gov.uk/visual/2015/11/figure45.csv

1999-50-0	12.54	69.2
1999-51-0	15.77	124.5
1999-52-0	18.58	149.4
2000-01-0	17.97	225.7
2000-02-0	15.45	233
2000-03-0	13.47	114.4
2000-04-0	12.43	58.6

I apologise if some find this morbid but I feel context is very important.

 

[bramling]

Here's a good reason why we've needed solid enforcement. These people really should have the book thrown at them. This is the very reason why travelling to beauty spots is prohibited - people just can be trusted to behave themselves.

Coronavirus: Four due in court over Derbyshire moors barbecue

The four are due in court over the gathering - which left four hectares of moorland ablaze.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Ianno87]

That is a very unfair and obtuse comment

In my experience, autistic people are very honest and trying it on for special treatment isn't on their radar.

Either you have no understanding of autism or you are stereotyping and tarring them all with the same brush

Agreed.

Autism is a condition most people *think* they understand...when they actually haven't a clue about it.

My comment wasn't aimed at any particular group, autistic or otherwise.

As I say, many people will have a reason they feel gives them cause to be an exception. Once too many people start doing it, things break down.

Pretty much everyone is finding aspects of the current situation difficult, for one reason or another. It really does seem to be the case that the more people follow the guidance, the shorter the situation lasts.

I could have fancied a reset by going further afield over the weekend after having been at work for 7 days, however I thought better of it. Whichever way one looks at it, there's simply no need to be travelling many miles for exercise.

Unfortunately for some autistic people at the extreme of the spectrum, this will be more than just "difficult". It will be actively distressing (no exaggeration).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If it’s a catarrh cough it won’t be a Covid dry cough

Indeed.

A productive (wet) cough produces produces phlegm or sputum from the lungs or sinuses and often associated with a cold, flu, bronchitis, COPD or pneumonia whilst a non-productive (dry) cough doesn't produce anything and is caused by irritants, gastroesophageal reflux disease, asthma and ... coronavirus

 

[Bletchleyite]

GERD can cause a wet cough as well, as it can cause elevated mucus production.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Much talk on this thread of government advice vs legal regulations. Certainly most of the complaining I see on Facebook is of businesses who are legally open and people legally using them. There really is a view that just because a minister says "do not" that it has basis in law - untrue. As some police forces had to be reminded of when they went rather over the top in their approach.

Fundamentally whilst its not explicitly illegal to drive 40 miles for exercise, or to exercise all day, its ill advised- we will all benefit if the majority don't do it. Similarly its not a Good Thing for the police to act like Northern ticket check squads and apply a ticket at every opportunity when the action is ill-advised as opposed to illegal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fundamentally whilst its not explicitly illegal to drive 40 miles for exercise, or to exercise all day, its ill advised- we will all benefit if the majority don't do it. Similarly its not a Good Thing for the police to act like Northern ticket check squads and apply a ticket at every opportunity when the action is ill-advised as opposed to illegal.

Agreed, though I think them advising people why they've made a bad choice by going against the guidelines but not against the law is fair enough. Just like they might in normal times give crime prevention advice. You aren't obliged to fit extra locks on your front door, but that doesn't mean they can't advise you that doing so would be prudent.

It does seem a lot of people who've driven up to the Lakes etc just don't appreciate (a) the risk they are causing to others, and (b) the NHS capacity issues in rural areas.

 

[Domh245]

Agreed, though I think them advising people why they've made a bad choice by going against the guidelines but not against the law is fair enough. Just like they might in normal times give crime prevention advice. You aren't obliged to fit extra locks on your front door, but that doesn't mean they can't advise you that doing so would be prudent.

Exactly this, in my opinion their main problem has been the tone of what they're doing. A lot of the rightly criticised tweets and other media that the police have posted (and some of their actions) are close to being helpful, but they manage to overstep the mark and go from "helpful advice based on government guidance" to "trying to enforce something that they can't and looking worryingly power-happy"

The attitude test can go both ways!

 

[Enthusiast]

It does beg the question as to whether the current fines are sufficient. Must admit I’d be tempted to look at withdrawing people’s furlough payments if they fail to follow the guidelines, seems eminently fair to me plus would certainly provide some incentive.

What about people who are working? Fine them a few days' wages? I think there's a country in Scandinavia which does that sort of thing.

Both those schemes would involve variable (principally means-tested) penalties for which the police in the UK have no powers to impose. All such cases would have to go to court.

 

[oldman]

Article on the BBC about vigilanteism

George, 68, from Edinburgh, told how he had stopped to speak to a friend - making sure they kept a "large" distance between them - after they happened to meet during his daily walk in The Meadows in Edinburgh.

He said: "Suddenly this woman came up to us shouting that we were too close and produced a measuring tape from her pocket.

"She then began measuring the distance between us."

He said his 6ft tall friend had even lain down on the ground to help demonstrate that they were even further apart than the recommended distance of two metres (almost [sic] 6.6ft).

...

Susan Bell, 42, from Morningside, said she had heard people sighing and tutting at her while walking down the road.

...

Tutting in Morningside - whatever next?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How did she measure the distance without coming within 2m of them?

Anyway, I believe the Scots are good at telling people to "go away" in a colourful manner, this seems a perfect case for such wording

 

[oldman]

You need a 4m tape, sufficiently rigid to be manoeuvred from a distance. Better still a 4 meter rule then you can poke them as well.

 

[Bantamzen]

Article on the BBC about vigilanteism



Tutting in Morningside - whatever next?

Funnily enough I saw something similar yesterday on my daily exercise. A bloke initially walking some distance past 2 cyclists sitting down taking a break walked right up to them to tell them off about social distancing....

The madness is starting to set in...

 

[ainsworth74]

Gentle reminder that this thread is about the new rules and the enforcement of those rules. I've moved a large off-topic discussion to it's own dedicated thread here. I would like to assure everyone that there's plenty of server capacity to discuss other allied issues relating to COVID-19 without having stuff them all into one place

 

[AM9]

You need a 4m tape, sufficiently rigid to be manoeuvred from a distance. Better still a 4 meter rule then you can poke them as well.

Now if everybody dressed like this, added an extra bit of starch to the washing, it would be much easier to keep a safe distance apart.

Picture of whirling dervish dancing

 

[Greybeard33]

Indeed.

A productive (wet) cough produces produces phlegm or sputum from the lungs or sinuses and often associated with a cold, flu, bronchitis, COPD or pneumonia whilst a non-productive (dry) cough doesn't produce anything and is caused by irritants, gastroesophageal reflux disease, asthma and ... coronavirus

But a hayfever sufferer might also have an asymptomatic Covid-19 infection. In which case their coughs and sneezes would spread the virus through the air much more effectively than normal breathing. Therefore, from an enforcement perspective, anyone out and about with a cough might be ordered to go home and self isolate, regardless of the police officer's ability to diagnose different types of cough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But a hayfever sufferer might also have an asymptomatic Covid-19 infection. In which case their coughs and sneezes would spread the virus through the air much more effectively than normal breathing. Therefore, from an enforcement perspective, anyone out and about with a cough might be ordered to go home and self isolate, regardless of the police officer's ability to diagnose different types of cough.

Only if you want to lock down half the population which isn't workable.

 

[Mag_seven]

Now if everybody dressed like this, add an extra bit of starch to the washing, it would be much easier to keep a safe distance apart.
View attachment 76652
Picture of whirling dervish dancing

And just make it about waste height.

Similarly to help people comply with social distancing rules I did think about patenting some sort of giant stationary "hula hoop" that you attach to your waste! It would have to have a diameter of at least 2m.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Similarly to help people comply with social distancing rules I did think about patenting some sort of giant stationary "hula hoop" that you attach to your waste! It would have to have a diameter of at least 2m.

Haha!

Added benefit: When you're cycling, passing cars will definitely keep a safe distance from you (from the POV of accidents).

But do those social distancing rules apply to the sides of your front door as well?

 

[Ianno87]

Sounds like somebody was listening - good news:

UK coronavirus rules relaxed for people with autism and learning disabilities

Policy updated after lawyers challenge ‘discriminatory’ lockdown measures

www.theguardian.com

People with learning disabilities or autism can leave the house for exercise more than once a day and can travel outside of their local area under current lockdown measures, the government has said.

The guidance, which had previously stated that non-essential workers should only leave their homes once a day for exercise or to shop for basic necessities, was amended on Wednesday.

Thankfully, the government is displaying more disability awareness than is present from some on this forum.