WCML current Peak and Off Peak capacity

[MarkWi72]

Hi all, just a quick question that someone will be able to answer. I'm a Green Party member and am interested in railways. I'm a rarity as I am not against HS2 and understand that evidence needs to be analysed regarding this project (which is annoyingly over budget, but quadrupling the WCML double track bits could be much more expensive and invasive). Anyway my Q's:

What is the current capacity of the WCML - it used to be the case that the line from Rugby (well, Roade)to Wembley/Willesdon was the busiest stretch of railway in Europe. I'm certain this is still the case, having been at Hanslope and Roade a couple of years ago! I've seen the business case for HS2 based on this, on another interesting thread.

Would anyone know what the busiest stretches are? There's certainly a busier freight timetable these days , than compared with the 80s, partly due to DRFT.

Presumably the double track sections are less busy,but still possibly full to capacity (e.g Oxenholme to Glasgow , plus the 'spurs' to Liverpool/Manchester/Stoke/Brum etc.)?

And the line speeds since the late 90s are much higher (esp after Pendolino introductions). I recall as a youngster (I grew up near Dudley Port), that some stretches of that line were 60mph (as was the Grand Junction via Bescot). and was 75mph elsewhere. I think its 90mph now. Is there anywhere line speed info is stored (there used to be those Railmaster books in the past - my dad had a few which had line speeds/track orientation/mileposts etc.). Do things like this still exist?

Regards, all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The busiest stretch by far is between Milton Keynes Central and Euston (well, Tring-Wembley, as the Tring stoppers are added at Tring and the Southern turns off at Wembley), and it's relieving this stretch (to allow more local services and freight) that is the key business case for HS2.

 

[MarkWi72]

Ah, yes, I forgot about the Tring stoppers.

 

[Ianno87]

The busiest section of the Fast Lines is between Euston and Ledburn Junction, with something like 15 trains in peak direction in peak periods. The standard pattern of evening peak departures is something like (off memrory)

XX57 Lancaster (Pendolino, first stop Tamworth)
XX00 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Stoke)
XX03 Birmingham (Pendolino, first stop Rugby)
XX07 Liverpool (Pendolino, first stop Stafford)
XX10 North Wales (Voyager, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX13 LNWR (first stop Milton Keynes
XX16 LNWR (first stop Leighton Buzzard)
XX20 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX23 Birmingham (Pendolino, first stop Watford then Coventry)
XX30 Glasgow (Pendolino, first stop Warrington)
XX33 Blackpool or Liverpool (Voyager/Pendolino, first stop Rugby)
XX40 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Crewe)
XX43 Scotland via Birmingham (Pendolino or Voyager, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX46 LNWR (first stop Milton Keynes then Rugby)
XX49 LNWR (first stop Leighton Buzzard)

The signalling in theory permits departures every 3 minutes, but this is not achievable in practice since:

No xx27 departure is possible as the xx20 needs to stop on the Fast Line at Watford, and by the time it departs again the xx30 has caught up.

Similaly, no xx54 is possibe since the xx46 calls at Milton Keynes and is caught up by the xx57 as a result.

Therefore the only "spare" path might be considered to he the xx36...which is prudent to keep as a performance reserve after all of the above (and if it did run it would have linited options with what could be done with it).

Note in particular that the sequence of trains is careful and well-optimised (random it is certainly not). Notice for example:
-The sequence of trains running non-stop for a long distance at 57,00,03 and 07
-Then followed by an xx10 and 13 calling Milton Keynes (after the fast trains have passed), then a 16 which leaves the Slow Lines at Ledburn (giving 'space' for the 10/13 to call without blocking a train straight behind it).

Another example is the 23 calling at Watford, which gives space for the 20 to call at Milton Keynes.

A work of art to squeeze as many trains as possible out of this railway.

 

[MarkWi72]

Then there are freights.

 

[Ianno87]

Then there are freights.

On the Slow Lines (with the stopping passenger services)

 

[MarkWi72]

On the Slow Lines (with the stopping passenger services)

Well, yes, I know that. What is the slow line capacity atm?

 

[MarkWi72]

The busiest section of the Fast Lines is between Euston and Ledburn Junction, with something like 15 trains in peak direction in peak periods. The standard pattern of evening peak departures is something like (off memrory)

XX57 Lancaster (Pendolino, first stop Tamworth)
XX00 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Stoke)
XX03 Birmingham (Pendolino, first stop Rugby)
XX07 Liverpool (Pendolino, first stop Stafford)
XX10 North Wales (Voyager, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX13 LNWR (first stop Milton Keynes
XX16 LNWR (first stop Leighton Buzzard)
XX20 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX23 Birmingham (Pendolino, first stop Watford then Coventry)
XX30 Glasgow (Pendolino, first stop Warrington)
XX33 Blackpool or Liverpool (Voyager/Pendolino, first stop Rugby)
XX40 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Crewe)
XX43 Scotland via Birmingham (Pendolino or Voyager, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX46 LNWR (first stop Milton Keynes then Rugby)
XX49 LNWR (first stop Leighton Buzzard)

The signalling in theory permits departures every 3 minutes, but this is not achievable in practice since:

No xx27 departure is possible as the xx20 needs to stop on the Fast Line at Watford, and by the time it departs again the xx30 has caught up.

Similaly, no xx54 is possibe since the xx46 calls at Milton Keynes and is caught up by the xx57 as a result.

Therefore the only "spare" path might be considered to he the xx36...which is prudent to keep as a performance reserve after all of the above (and if it did run it would have linited options with what could be done with it).

Note in particular that the sequence of trains is careful and well-optimised (random it is certainly not). Notice for example:
-The sequence of trains running non-stop for a long distance at 57,00,03 and 07
-Then followed by an xx10 and 13 calling Milton Keynes (after the fast trains have passed), then a 16 which leaves the Slow Lines at Ledburn (giving 'space' for the 10/13 to call without blocking a train straight behind it).

Another example is the 23 calling at Watford, which gives space for the 20 to call at Milton Keynes.

A work of art to squeeze as many trains as possible out of this railway.

Work of art - yes. Amazing really, and goes to show why a couple of small delays can knock on across the network and why a lot of the fatalities at Milton Keynes and surrounding area, are so disruptive.

 

[The Chimaera]

Slow line capacity is basically full to the brim south of Rugby with freight following stopper following freight etc.
Line speeds on the Stour valley & Grand Junction are the same as they have been for 40 years (60-75) with no real likelihood of any meaningful increases. Again capacity is the problem, the railway we have today is at saturation point, witness the fall in right time arrivals etc. When something goes wrong the knock on effects go on for hours as there is no slack left in the system.
This is why we need the new wcml relief lines aka HS2.

 

[Hadders]

I posted this back in February on another thread but it's relevant here:

Taking a quick look at RTT typical fast line off peak departures from Euston are:

xx00 Manchester (first call Stoke on Trent)
xx03 Birmingham New Street (first call Rugby)
xx07 Liverpool (first call Stafford)
xx10 Chester (first call Milton Keynes)
xx15 Crewe (LNR 110 mph fast line to Ledburn Junction)
xx20 Manchester (first call Milton Keynes)
xx23 Birmingham (first call Watford)
xx30 Glasgow (first call Warrington)
xx40 Manchester (first call Crewe)
xx43 Edinburgh/Glasgow via West Midlands (first call Milton Keynes)
xx46 Crewe (LNR 110 mph fast line to Nuneaton, first call Milton Keynes)
xx49 Liverpool (LNR 110 mph fast line to Hanslope Junction, first call Milton Keynes)

Then add to this on some hours an XX36 Blackpool first call Rugby and the future 110 mph Grand Central Service to Blackpool at xx36 first call Milton Keynes.

This is impressive by anyone's standard, more services are run in the peak hours. I believe @Bald Rick and @ChiefPlanner have referred to the WCML timetable south of Rugby as a thing of beauty and I can see why (I look forward to reading more about it in their memoires!)

Anyone doubting the need for HS2 would do well to look at this and explain exactly how you would fit more trains onto the fast lines out of Euston.

 

[Bald Rick]

@Ianno87 has described perfectly the situation, which is not surprising as between he and @The Planner you have two of the experts on the subject.

On a broader principle, the question “what is the capacity of xxx line” is quite difficult to answer. It depends not only on theoretical line capacity, but also stopping patterns, the capability of the rolling stock deployed, and also wider network effects. This is why you can get 28tph on the two track section between London Bridge and Ewer St junction, but struggle to get more than 6tph on the 2 track section between Lancaster and Carlisle.

Linespeeds for all NR lines are published on the NR website - look up National Electronic Sectonal Appendicies.

Edit: yes @Hadders it is a thing of beauty.

 

[87015]

Be more beautiful if it worked well enough for the xx16s to ever run right time in the peak! 1716 still awaiting a RT Leighton arrival more than once in a blue moon since last May unless it cheated one in last few days pre reduction. Lots of capacity wasted on far-from-full peak Pendos too, the 1707 Liverpool is pretty embarassing for a high peak departure.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Do not forget the "branch line" to the second city - Brum - many years ago when we set off on the adventure of getting some common sense into the dreamy aspirations for the moving block 140 mph - ultra sexy WCML - (PUG 2) where did we start ......?

New St - Proof House Junction - International - Coventry - Rugby. A fiendish bit of railway - yet an absolute critical one. Nail that , and you are on your way.

The other bit - being a democratic sort of person , was getting some focus on the slow lines out of Euston - so 2x75 mph Freightliners or similar - a 60 mph freight , (every other hour) - 2 fast(ish) off peak Northamptons via MK , and some sort of compromise on the all stations - all a bit more complex than you can imagine.

Sort that - and the rest followed .

The challenges , were a bit "challenging" ......

To this day , I am amazed how someone signed off the original West Coast deal - let alone the upgrade of a very challenged railway asset wise - .....

2004 was a joy - 2008 even better.....timetable wise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Be more beautiful if it worked well enough for the xx16s to ever run right time in the peak! 1716 still awaiting a RT Leighton arrival more than once in a blue moon since last May unless it cheated one in last few days pre reduction. Lots of capacity wasted on far-from-full peak Pendos too, the 1707 Liverpool is pretty embarassing for a high peak departure.

They'd be full if the fares weren't as outrageous.

 

[Bald Rick]

To this day , I am amazed how someone signed off the original West Coast deal - let alone the upgrade of a very challenged railway asset wise - .....

I remember the day well. Of course those who signed it were all ‘moved on’ pretty swiftly a couple fo years later when reality landed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

They'd be full if the fares weren't as outrageous.

Referring to (a) WCML I/C fares - or (b) Season tickets. ?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I remember the day well. Of course those who signed it were all ‘moved on’ pretty swiftly a couple fo years later when reality landed.

Then followed the long , hard slog on project delivery , blockade planning and a few million other "issues" ......been turning out a lot of home archived paper work this last month , and I did a bit more than WCML , and only now realise how horribly stressful it was.

 

[MarkWi72]

Thanks all, for straightening out these technical feats of wizardry - if that's not an oxymoron. It gives one a clear idea why we need an alternative fast line , plus what is already there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Referring to (a) WCML I/C fares - or (b) Season tickets. ?

Referring to the Anytime fare to/from Liverpool, specifically, which is the main reason for a Liverpool Avanti that doesn't stop at MKC being underused.

 

[MarkWi72]

Slow line capacity is basically full to the brim south of Rugby with freight following stopper following freight etc.
Line speeds on the Stour valley & Grand Junction are the same as they have been for 40 years (60-75) with no real likelihood of any meaningful increases. Again capacity is the problem, the railway we have today is at saturation point, witness the fall in right time arrivals etc. When something goes wrong the knock on effects go on for hours as there is no slack left in the system.
This is why we need the new wcml relief lines aka HS2.

Wow. That's the same as the 80s, when I was a kid. I really thought they were a bit faster through Dudley Port these days. Prob still 75mph then.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Referring to the Anytime fare to/from Liverpool, specifically, which is the main reason for a Liverpool Avanti that doesn't stop at MKC being underused.

My son - who I have not seen since February - and an NHS worker to boot , seemed to manage WC fares for around £20 or so (off peak certainly) , without too much trouble.

 

[MarkWi72]

Do not forget the "branch line" to the second city - Brum - many years ago when we set off on the adventure of getting some common sense into the dreamy aspirations for the moving block 140 mph - ultra sexy WCML - (PUG 2) where did we start ......?

New St - Proof House Junction - International - Coventry - Rugby. A fiendish bit of railway - yet an absolute critical one. Nail that , and you are on your way.

The other bit - being a democratic sort of person , was getting some focus on the slow lines out of Euston - so 2x75 mph Freightliners or similar - a 60 mph freight , (every other hour) - 2 fast(ish) off peak Northamptons via MK , and some sort of compromise on the all stations - all a bit more complex than you can imagine.

Sort that - and the rest followed .

The challenges , were a bit "challenging" ......

To this day , I am amazed how someone signed off the original West Coast deal - let alone the upgrade of a very challenged railway asset wise - .....

2004 was a joy - 2008 even better.....timetable wise.

What about North West of New St (via Stour Valley, Wolvo then onto Stafford?). Plus the Stoke lines from Colwich and Norton Bridge, and the dual track Crewe-Manchester sections. How dot hey compare with New St - Rugby?

 

[Whistler40145]

The busiest section of the Fast Lines is between Euston and Ledburn Junction, with something like 15 trains in peak direction in peak periods. The standard pattern of evening peak departures is something like (off memrory)

XX57 Lancaster (Pendolino, first stop Tamworth)
XX00 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Stoke)
XX03 Birmingham (Pendolino, first stop Rugby)
XX07 Liverpool (Pendolino, first stop Stafford)
XX10 North Wales (Voyager, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX13 LNWR (first stop Milton Keynes
XX16 LNWR (first stop Leighton Buzzard)
XX20 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX23 Birmingham (Pendolino, first stop Watford then Coventry)
XX30 Glasgow (Pendolino, first stop Warrington)
XX33 Blackpool or Liverpool (Voyager/Pendolino, first stop Rugby)
XX40 Manchester (Pendolino, first stop Crewe)
XX43 Scotland via Birmingham (Pendolino or Voyager, first stop Milton Keynes)
XX46 LNWR (first stop Milton Keynes then Rugby)
XX49 LNWR (first stop Leighton Buzzard)

The signalling in theory permits departures every 3 minutes, but this is not achievable in practice since:

No xx27 departure is possible as the xx20 needs to stop on the Fast Line at Watford, and by the time it departs again the xx30 has caught up.

Similaly, no xx54 is possibe since the xx46 calls at Milton Keynes and is caught up by the xx57 as a result.

Therefore the only "spare" path might be considered to he the xx36...which is prudent to keep as a performance reserve after all of the above (and if it did run it would have linited options with what could be done with it).

Note in particular that the sequence of trains is careful and well-optimised (random it is certainly not). Notice for example:
-The sequence of trains running non-stop for a long distance at 57,00,03 and 07
-Then followed by an xx10 and 13 calling Milton Keynes (after the fast trains have passed), then a 16 which leaves the Slow Lines at Ledburn (giving 'space' for the 10/13 to call without blocking a train straight behind it).

Another example is the 23 calling at Watford, which gives space for the 20 to call at Milton Keynes.

A work of art to squeeze as many trains as possible out of this railway.

Not forgetting that there will be be extra services slotted into the already congested WCML when the Grand Central Blackpool North to London Euston service’s commence

 

[Bletchleyite]

My son - who I have not seen since February - and an NHS worker to boot , seemed to manage WC fares for around £20 or so (off peak certainly) , without too much trouble.

I was referring specifically to the outrageous Anytime fares. You will not get a fare of £20 or anywhere near it in the peak, which was the time under discussion when trains were being said to be quiet.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What about North West of New St (via Stour Valley, Wolvo then onto Stafford?). Plus the Stoke lines from Colwich and Norton Bridge, and the dual track Crewe-Manchester sections. How dot hey compare with New St - Rugby?

 

[Bald Rick]

What about North West of New St (via Stour Valley, Wolvo then onto Stafford?). Plus the Stoke lines from Colwich and Norton Bridge, and the dual track Crewe-Manchester sections. How dot hey compare with New St - Rugby?

New St - Wolves is full.
Wolves - Stafford is nearly full.
Crewe - Manchester is full, strictly speaking not all of it, but then I doubt there is much call for additional services from Sandbach to Alderley Edge. Stoke - Colwich / Norton Nridge has, in theory, some capacity, but it can’t be easily used as you can’t get to it (other parts of the network being full).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Equally challenging - the 2 tracks Colwich - Whitehouse -Stafford was a bit "tasty" , let alone the Crewe area , and of course north of Crewe towards Warrington......so many issues , for example the cutting of the all stations across Birmingham New St towards Wolverhampton was a challenge. One of the long standing problems , wait for it , was accommodating the Cardiff - Manchester over Crewe , hard wired by the single line section towards Gresty Lane which had to cross over in the teeth of both up and down lines. Not at all easy in any way.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I was referring specifically to the outrageous Anytime fares. You will not get a fare of £20 or anywhere near it in the peak, which was the time under discussion when trains were being said to be quiet.

I specifically said "off peak" - I would not expect anyone to get a £20 fare in the business hours. The real life example I quoted was for someone who works a solid day , in an office , Monday to Friday. If he needed to travel in these hours then he would bite the bullet and drive south or north.

 

[Class 170101]

The only other path (other than the xx33 / xx36) that I can see off peak would be the xx16 from Euston by retarding the Manchester slightly, as is done in the peaks.

Of course whether there is a corresponding path in the Up Direction....

 

[Class 170101]

One of the long standing problems , wait for it , was accommodating the Cardiff - Manchester over Crewe , hard wired by the single line section towards Gresty Lane which had to cross over in the teeth of both up and down lines. Not at all easy in any way.

Could that be solved by platforms on the Independent Lines - I seem to recall using a diveunder on a Railtour in this area having come from Wilmslow direction towards Crewe?