Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

[111-111-1]

Interesting on your view of what a "proper runner" is. To me anyone who runs is a proper runner!

I can confirm that works in a different way, though; running (slowly) with untreated asthma basically altitude trained me, when they were doing the tests they found a very high level of red blood cells which was my body compensating, and when I got inhalers it fairly quickly dropped off again and was normal on the tests they did after that. That said, it did give me a bit of a kick of energy in the first few days of treatment!

It's unusual - to the point that it took doctors 3 months with some "cheating" by me[1] to work out what it was - but, perhaps relevantly, I developed asthma as a post-viral thing aged 38, I've not always had it - some sort of chest infection that seems to have caused lasting damage. Based on reports, some COVID patients will get the same thing, but fortunately if it is the same thing a preventer inhaler will "fix" it to allow activity to resume normally over time.

[1] I borrowed a spare inhaler off my sister and tried it. You're clearly not meant to do that, but the doctors were quite appreciative of my reports that it worked!

Maybe competitive would have been a better word. But they use masks deliberately to restrict the amount of air into their lungs to make the body work harder not like in your case for medical reasons. The equvilent of a few extra weights at a gym or weights when swimming.

 

[westv]

I still don't see the difference between masks "being encouraged" on public transport and the usual advice to sneeze/cough into a tissue sleeve. Those that won't bother with the later are also unlikely to do the former.

 

[111-111-1]

I still don't see the difference between masks "being encouraged" on public transport and the usual advice to sneeze/cough into a tissue sleeve. Those that won't bother with the later are also unlikely to do the former.

Think about a cold morning when you can see peoples breath. Put a mask on and the distance it will show in the air will decrease. That distance is very similar when its not cold, now think about sat on a busy train bus etc,

It could be no mask no travel. RPI & FMI grades?

 

[westv]

Think about a cold morning when you can see peoples breath. Put a mask on and the distance it will show in the air will decrease. That distance is very similar when its not cold, now think about sat on a busy train bus etc,

It could be no mask no travel. RPI & FMI grades?

The possible transmission of Covid19 by breath is uncertain

Some Scientists Say Just Breathing or Talking May Spread COVID-19. Here's What We Know

We've all been told to cough and sneeze into our elbow and keep a distance from others, but can those with COVID-19 pass it onto others just by breathing and talking? In other words, can it become airborne? There's been a lot of talk about this the past week - but it's a complicated question...

www.sciencealert.com

 

[MDB1images]

Have the W.H.O. changed its view on masks?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe competitive would have been a better word. But they use masks deliberately to restrict the amount of air into their lungs to make the body work harder not like in your case for medical reasons. The equvilent of a few extra weights at a gym or weights when swimming.

The effect is the same - it altitude trains them and thus ekes out a bit of extra performance. It is very different from weight jackets or lifting extra weights, which are about building muscle strength, or indeed other running training which is about building various elements of performance.

Interestingly, when that test was done on me they mentioned that it isn't a good thing because it thickens the blood and so slightly increases the risk of stroke - so with suggestions that COVID causes clotting in some people now would not be a great time to do it!

 

[111-111-1]

The effect is the same - it altitude trains them and thus ekes out a bit of extra performance. It is very different from weight jackets or lifting extra weights, which are about building muscle strength, or indeed other running training which is about building various elements of performance.

Interestingly, when that test was done on me they mentioned that it isn't a good thing because it thickens the blood and so slightly increases the risk of stroke - so with suggestions that COVID causes clotting in some people now would not be a great time to do it!

Well I will tell the runner that she is being given wrong advice by her coaches. BTW she has run marathons and 1/2 marathons competively for many years, definately well into 3 figures. The explanation they gave was the one I gave about making the training session more effective with the analogy I write.

Interesting about the thickening of blood, I wonder whether the effect is greater when high energy activities are being done rather than walking round shops or sat on a train?

 

[Bantamzen]

Have the W.H.O. changed its view on masks?

No, their position is still that masks are not necessary for people not displaying symptoms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I will tell the runner that she is being given wrong advice by her coaches. BTW she has run marathons and 1/2 marathons competively for many years, definately well into 3 figures. The explanation they gave was the one I gave about making the training session more effective with the analogy I write.

It makes them more effective by altitude training the runner. That's how it works.

Interesting about the thickening of blood, I wonder whether the effect is greater when high energy activities are being done rather than walking round shops or sat on a train?

Yes. The more air you need, the greater the effect, as it's about training in oxygen deprivation. You can do the same thing (not at the moment, obviously) by going to say the Alps and running round at 1000m or whatever for a week or three (this is much nicer as you get a holiday too, though obviously costs more). Some runners do actually do that to get better performance at a race nearer sea level, and I can bear witness that it does actually work, both from having unintentionally done it re undiagnosed asthma, and because I've done it by going on holiday to Italy/Switzerland, ran (with some effort) there, and then found it easier to run on getting home for a bit!

 

[Llanigraham]

If 20 seconds of handwashing in warm water is enough to kill COVID, washing them in the normal wash (typically 1-2 hours of agitation with soap to break up the lipid layer on the outside of the virus) will kill any of it left on a mask easily enough.

The instructions for washing clothing I have been given for the voluntary work I am enrolled in, is for it to be washed at more than 60 degrees. Nothing more difficult than that.

 

[_toommm_]

Face masks to become mandatory on public transport in Brussels from 04/05/20, with fines given out for non-compliance:

Spoiler: Article

From 4 May, the wearing of a face mask will be mandatory, both in trains and metro wagons as well as in stations and at stops, the National Security Council declared on Friday.

In addition, not everyone will be allowed to use public transportation.


From 4 May, it is people who must go to work or who must go to a doctor’s appointment. From 11 May, it will be authorized to go to the shops and, and from 18 May to go to schools. Teleworking remains more than recommended, as well as not moving around unnecessarily,” Belgium’s Mobility Minister François Bellot said on Sunday’s “C’est pas tous les jours dimanche” edition screened on RTL-TVi.

The fines handed out for breaching confinement rules are set at 250 euros, and could be given to those breaking the rules imposed by the government such as not wearing a mask in public transport.

“We have to be very clear on this. If commuters break the rules, it will of course be necessary for staff to report it and for police to be able to send fines,” warned Bellot.

“We are counting on good civility and for people to take responsibility, but there will be checks by police and Securail,” Bellot added.

The Mobility Ministers and heads of public organisations have met several times and called for clear rules. The clear rule is the obligation to wear a mask or scarf that covers the mouth and nose.”

'There will be checks and fines' in public transport

www.brusselstimes.com

 

[Mogster]

The problem I have with mask wearing is that they encourage face touching. Many people are constantly touching their face to reposition the mask, contamination that’s on their hands is transferred to their mask and face and vice versa on to surfaces. I tend to touch my face with my hands a lot, over the last couple of years I’ve trained myself to not do this on public transport. I’m reluctant to use a mask as I feel it’ll just involve touching my face more.

Then there’s removing the mask to use the phone, talk to someone, eat or drink. I think it’s reasonable for someone to wear a mask constantly for a 30 minute commute but for a 3 hour long distance journey? If the masks are “mandated” does that suggest removing them will result in a fine? We already have the rise of the corona vigilante, you can imagine aggressive confrontations between mask wearers and non mask wearers or people getting angry because someone has removed their mask... I can also see problems with defining what constitutes a face covering or mask.

 

[Meerkat]

The problem i have with mask wearing is that I think it’s all show and little to no evidence, and I think it’s a horrible thing for society to shut ourselves away behind masks.
We already can’t shake hands, now the zealots want to stop us smiling at each other.

 

[Mogster]

The problem i have with mask wearing is that I think it’s all show and little to no evidence, and I think it’s a horrible thing for society to shut ourselves away behind masks.
We already can’t shake hands, now the zealots want to stop us smiling at each other.

I do tend to agree. Especially as the evidence in support is so weak.

 

[Meerkat]

I do tend to agree. Especially as the evidence in support is so weak.

And with such weak evidence people such as myself will only obey in the most token way (bandana type deal, only pulled up when others around), which will actually increase the risk.
Bit like all the people with cycle helmets loosely attached to the back of their head!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And with such weak evidence people such as myself will only obey in the most token way (bandana type deal, only pulled up when others around), which will actually increase the risk.
Bit like all the people with cycle helmets loosely attached to the back of their head!

I thought cycle helmets provided the best protection when hung on the handlebar?

 

[Meerkat]

I thought cycle helmets provided the best protection when hung on the handlebar?

Ha! I do wonder whether some of the efforts would do more harm than good - increasing twist on the neck etc. There is a guy round here who wears a helmet over a bobble hat!
You know all these people saying “the law doesn’t say I can’t drive to exercise“ etc? Well if the law doesn’t say I can’t cut a hole in the middle of my mask so I can breathe properly without steaming my glasses up.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ha! I do wonder whether some of the efforts would do more harm than good - increasing twist on the neck etc. There is a guy round here who wears a helmet over a bobble hat!
You know all these people saying “the law doesn’t say I can’t drive to exercise“ etc? Well if the law doesn’t say I can’t cut a hole in the middle of my mask so I can breathe properly without steaming my glasses up.....

If there is a mask law (and I'm not sure there will be) it will be something like "a fabric or similar item fully covering the mouth and nose", not "a mask".

 

[westv]

If there's no mask law then I think there's been a cover up.

 

[Meerkat]

If there is a mask law (and I'm not sure there will be) it will be something like "a fabric or similar item fully covering the mouth and nose", not "a mask".

I’ll get my mum to knock something up from some old net curtain. She’s good like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ll get my mum to knock something up from some old net curtain. She’s good like that.

Sneaky

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And with such weak evidence people such as myself will only obey in the most token way (bandana type deal, only pulled up when others around), which will actually increase the risk.
Bit like all the people with cycle helmets loosely attached to the back of their head!

Why would you do that? Cycle helmets aren't compulsory in the UK, so presumably, if you don't want to wear one, you just - ummm - don't wear one! No need to have one and not wear it properly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would you do that? Cycle helmets aren't compulsory in the UK, so presumably, if you don't want to wear one, you just - ummm - don't wear one! No need to have one and not wear it properly.

Most commonly kids whose parents want them to wear one but they don't want to.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I do tend to agree. Especially as the evidence in support is so weak.

I think there could be an argument that, even though the evidence for masks is weak, the potential benefit of slowing the spread of the virus is so great, and the inconvenience of wearing one when you're doing things like shopping or riding on trains and buses for shortish journeys is so minor, that it may be worthwhile mandating masks as a temporary safeguard. At worst, you get people to suffer a minor inconvenience/unpleasantness of having them for a couple of months. At best, you could might save quite a few lives and allow the lockdown to end earlier than would otherwise have been possible.

Where I would object would be, if a temporary enforcement of wearing masks became de facto permanent and we ended up with a culture where people expect you to wear them in the absence of strong enough evidence for the benefits of doing so, long after the virus has stopped being a significant threat. I'd also be concerned if wearing them was mandated in situations where they do cause serious difficulties. In the current circumstances, requiring masks in crowded shops doesn't seem too unreasonable. But requiring them when exercising well away from other people would in my view be daft and very unreasonable.

 

[Meerkat]

Why would you do that? Cycle helmets aren't compulsory in the UK, so presumably, if you don't want to wear one, you just - ummm - don't wear one! No need to have one and not wear it properly.

Because the safety nazis have attempted to scare everyone into wearing one!

even though the evidence for masks is weak, the potential benefit of slowing the spread of the virus is so great, and the inconvenience of wearing one when you're doing things like shopping or riding on trains and buses for shortish journeys is so minor, that it may be worthwhile mandating masks as a temporary safeguard.

Illogical, if the potential benefit is massive then the evidence wouldn’t be weak to non-existent. It’s no stronger than the evidence that it leads to more contact transmission, and more risky behaviour due to assumed safety.
The inconvenience is also not minor.

 

[HH]

Surely the logical position is that if you are going to be in close proximity to others for a length of time then wearing a mask will help stop you spreading the virus if you have it, so it's ideal for public transport where social distancing isn't possible, particularly where the journeys are relatively short. Most other circumstances the benefit would be very small and probably outweighed by the disbenefits.

 

[MarkyT]

Surely the logical position is that if you are going to be in close proximity to others for a length of time then wearing a mask will help stop you spreading the virus if you have it, so it's ideal for public transport where social distancing isn't possible, particularly where the journeys are relatively short. Most other circumstances the benefit would be very small and probably outweighed by the disbenefits.

Exactly. Mask wearing is primarily to protect everyone around a wearer, rather than the wearer themselves. So if no one else can see whether a mask is being worn or not in a very quiet area, then there's really no problem not wearing in that area at all. It's exactly the reverse of the cycle helmet wearing issue, as that measure clearly only protects the head of the wearer, and adequately only in a few very minor incident scenarios.

 

[Mogster]

Surely the logical position is that if you are going to be in close proximity to others for a length of time then wearing a mask will help stop you spreading the virus if you have it, so it's ideal for public transport where social distancing isn't possible, particularly where the journeys are relatively short. Most other circumstances the benefit would be very small and probably outweighed by the disbenefits.

You can’t take that one factor in isolation though.

Yes droplets will be reduced but then face touching will be increased. Increased face touching means contaminated hands transferring more virus to the face or to surfaces. It appears re-useable masks are being suggested but that means people will have to clean them, daily. Many people won’t clean them daily so will be presenting a piece of contaminated fabric to their mouth day after day. Some will buy disposable masks and these things will be probably left around so you then have a contaminated waste problem that someone will have to deal with. I also strongly believe that being without a mask makes you more likely to distance properly while wearing one probably makes it more likely that the wearer will overestimate the protection it gives.

It‘s a complicated issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where I would object would be, if a temporary enforcement of wearing masks became de facto permanent and we ended up with a culture where people expect you to wear them in the absence of strong enough evidence for the benefits of doing so, long after the virus has stopped being a significant threat. I'd also be concerned if wearing them was mandated in situations where they do cause serious difficulties. In the current circumstances, requiring masks in crowded shops doesn't seem too unreasonable. But requiring them when exercising well away from other people would in my view be daft and very unreasonable.

As someone who is normally very much not a "germophobe" this would be a concern - the "do-gooders" trying to mandate us to live like that once the threat has passed.

 

[MarkyT]

Wearing masks is not to protect the wearer, but primarily to protect others around them, so if there's no one around to check whether someone is wearing or not in a quiet location, then not wearing in that area is not a problem at all I suggest.

Recent pictures of crowded post-lockdown streets, shops, mass transit stations in East Asia often neglect to mention one issue. That elephant in the room, street or station illustrated is near universal mask wearing, evident in all these images, a measure that must at least help in preventing transmission taking off again often in areas where distancing requirements are difficult to maintain, and help to keep the testing and tracing difficulties and workload under control as the extent of any new small outbreaks is constrained while lockdown measures are eased. Why would these nations insist on such mandatory mask-wearing otherwise?

Carelessly discarded waste from disposables is highly likely to be an increasing problem. It is already around some workplaces where masks are mandated, but this a small price to pay for such a major potential public health benefit in recently unprecedented times. In the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic, the measure was in place widely for only a matter of months as the infection rate fell away dramatically. There were a few hiccoughs along the way with 'anti-mask leagues' etc and consequent new flare ups, but the force of law typically came back quickly to reinforce compliance.

In the 1918 flu pandemic, not wearing a mask was illegal in some parts of America. What changed? | CNN

In 1918, America adopted mask wearing with a greater vengeance than anywhere else in the world. But a century later, it is Asian countries which have remembered the lessons the US learned.

edition.cnn.com

In the 1918 flu pandemic, not wearing a mask was illegal in some parts of America. What changed?
When the novel coronavirus pandemic hit Asia, people across the region were quick to wear masks, with some places like Taiwan and the Philippines even making them mandatory in certain scenarios. But in the West, mask adoption has been far slower, with England's Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty, for example, going so far as to claim mask-wearing is unnecessary. Yet it hasn't always been the case that mask-wearing is an Asian proclivity. It certainly wasn't during the influenza pandemic of 1918, which lasted from January 1918 to December 1920, and infected one-third of the world's population, or about 500 million people, leading to about 50 million deaths -- about half a million of which were in the United States.