Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

[westv]

Requires you to act in time and properly cover your mouth and nose.

But with a mask you'll spend the rest of the day with a face covered in a mucus splattered cloth!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But with a mask you'll spend the rest of the day with a face covered in a mucus splattered cloth!

Which is unpleasant for you, but better for others.

To make it clear: the whole basis for wearing masks is to protect others from you in case you have an asymptomatic case, not to protect you from others (which cloth masks are indeed not great at). It's a wholly altruistic move. And that's the basis Asians already wear them on.

 

[MarkyT]

If they do bring benefit (I remain of the view that a proper study is needed with regard to transmission of viruses of that sort of size)

The virus only exits the body in droplets via the mouth, not 'on its own', so the size of the virus is not really relevant in considering masks, only the droplet size. The major risk for health workers is when performing certain procedures in hospital, notably 'intubation' when ventilator pipes are fitted to and removed from seriously ill patients. These produce clouds of very fine droplets which are a very high risk, which is why shields, as well as high-performance masks, are used by the staff involved. There's little doubt that if you get infected droplets landing directly from someone's mouth on your own mucous membranes, there's a high chance of infection. Most of the uncertainties are about how long and under what circumstances viable virus can survive in droplets in the air and surfaces they may settle on, then what is the risk of others acquiring sufficient viral load from theses sources to become infected, and whether they become ill as a result or can fight it off with few or no symptoms. Also important is how infectious those 'asymptomatics' are during that period. Cloth mask-wearing sidesteps most of these uncertainties by attempting to stop the droplets leaving the mouths of the majority, some of whom may be infected. I would not support blanket compulsion for 'outside', except where crowds are likely, maybe in certain areas of cities. For public areas indoors and particularly on public transport it seems very sensible to require mouth covering at all times both to reduce risk and to inspire confidence in returning to those modes. Practically there is also usually some means of enforcing the measure, preventing people accessing stations or boarding vehicles who do not comply. Special rules for particular businesses like restaurant can be formulated, when these start to reopen, as in Honk Kong. Temporary removal of masks is permitted only while eating. The mask is stored in a disposable envelope provided by the establishment in this case, and must be refitted ASAP.

 

[westv]

Temporary removal of masks is permitted only while eating. The mask is stored in a disposable envelope provided by the establishment in this case, and must be refitted ASAP.

Between each mouthful or from sitting down to eat until leaving?

 

[MarkyT]

Between each mouthful or from sitting down to eat until leaving?

I don't know, but I expect for the duration of occupying a table, with seats spaced at greater intervals than usual (I assume). Tables and surrounding surfaces are supposedly sanitised between customers too. I don't know how groups are dealt with. Perhaps if they come in together and desire to sit together they may elect to be maskless together for the duration as long as they are distanced from other individuals and groups. That might be a solution for pubs, with masks required away from the table, going to bar or lavatory for instance. Perhaps some establishments could switch to wholly table service by masked employees.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The virus only exits the body in droplets via the mouth, not 'on its own'

That depends on a lot of things and is precisely why I feel a proper study is needed.

 

[MDB1images]

If the government decide to make the wearing of masks essential whilst outdoors (which I think is actually unlikely) then they should be rationed - I don't want the situation where I can't go out because everybody has stripped the shelves of them.

If it comes in it needs proper implementation and enduring it's free (so the poor/elderly get them).
Also needs proper guidance on why/how to wear it,(seen people wearing them on station waiting for train and taking them off when getting on train and leaving them on table before putting them on again before getting off!)

Personally I think a mask will see people less cautious and touch their face a lot more as they fiddle with it and take it on/off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a big risk of "risk compensation", i.e. people forget distancing because they think a mask makes them safer.

 

[RichT54]

The virus only exits the body in droplets via the mouth, not 'on its own'

However, some studies suggest that may not be the case:

The coronavirus can linger in patients’ eyes for several weeks and could act as a way of spreading the Covid-19 disease, according new study from Italy.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...tion-conjunctivitis-italy-wuhan-a9482186.html

Also:

Coronavirus has been detected on particles of air pollution by scientists investigating whether this could enable it to be carried over longer distances and increase the number of people infected.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/24/coronavirus-detected-particles-air-pollution

 

[JonathanP]

In Germany it is now compulsory to wear a mask(or at least some kind of face covering) in all public transport, and in almost the whole country also when shopping. Austria has done the same, SNCF is planning it too. So rightly or wrongly this probably this is coming to the UK soon too. Since I live in the small part where it is not required for shopping, and I no longer have any reason to use public transport I've haven't be able to observe how much this is being adhered too.

As I understand it simple cloth masks start to become ineffective after 20 minutes or so as they become saturated with moisture, so for a tube journey or a trip to the supermarket it makes sense, for a train journey lasting several hours it's a bit of a nonsense unless you turn up with a sackful of masks. If this requirement is maintained after leisure journeys are allowed then I guess it will make the hobby of travelling by train a lot less attractive, and be a further problem for anyone attempting to run charter/heritage trains.

 

[greyman42]

I saw a young girl who was obviously delivering for Deliveroo. She had returned from her order, sat down on a bench, removed her mask and promptly lit up a cigarette.

 

[Bantamzen]

Absolutely, but maybe a useful placebo to encourage folk back to using public transport, where everyone knows social distancing will be impossible during rush hours

Perhaps, but it may also start off a round of "mask-shaming" by those wanting it to be compulsory.

I'm wondering if this advice is also getting ready to increase services and relax lockdown soon too then.

There are more and more signs we are getting closer, some like the rumours of garden centres to re-open & public transport planning to ramp up are partly in the public view, but there are other indicators that I've seen in the last 48 hours that I can't yet discuss.

Requires you to act in time and properly cover your mouth and nose.

The vast majority of the time this will not be a problem for most people.

In Germany it is now compulsory to wear a mask(or at least some kind of face covering) in all public transport, and in almost the whole country also when shopping. Austria has done the same, SNCF is planning it too. So rightly or wrongly this probably this is coming to the UK soon too. Since I live in the small part where it is not required for shopping, and I no longer have any reason to use public transport I've haven't be able to observe how much this is being adhered too.

As I understand it simple cloth masks start to become ineffective after 20 minutes or so as they become saturated with moisture, so for a tube journey or a trip to the supermarket it makes sense, for a train journey lasting several hours it's a bit of a nonsense unless you turn up with a sackful of masks. If this requirement is maintained after leisure journeys are allowed then I guess it will make the hobby of travelling by train a lot less attractive, and be a further problem for anyone attempting to run charter/heritage trains.

So far the government seems not to be too keen on a compulsory system, they have already indicated that they won't be able to supply these for all of the general public, and rightly so. The priority is getting these to the healthcare staff for whom it will make a difference.

 

[Darandio]

It just looked ridiculous.

Not as ridiculous as this. Whether it's effective or not I cannot say, but has anyone seen anything quite like this?

Picture showing a man wearing a sanitary product as a face mask.

 

[david1212]

If the government decide to make the wearing of masks essential whilst outdoors (which I think is actually unlikely) then they should be rationed - I don't want the situation where I can't go out because everybody has stripped the shelves of them.

If they can't get enough masks to the NHS, what hope have they got in getting enough for everyone in the UK?

I too think that the government will only make wearing a mask anywhere outside the home advisory or recommended because of the backlash from not just NHS but all of the care sector and other key workers plus volunteers in public facing roles.

Core to this is the lack of supply medical grade or otherwise. At the first hint even with rationing any publicly available supplies will be fought over like loo rolls, long-life milk and pasta were a month or so ago.

Of course any shop, business etc could make wearing a mask a condition of entry to protect their staff. Their problem will be that without adequate supply it will be viewed as discriminatory.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I too think that the government will only make wearing a mask anywhere outside the home advisory or recommended because of the backlash from not just NHS but all of the care sector and other key workers plus volunteers in public facing roles.

Core to this is the lack of supply medical grade or otherwise. At the first hint even with rationing any publicly available supplies will be fought over like loo rolls, long-life milk and pasta were a month or so ago.

Of course any shop, business etc could make wearing a mask a condition of entry to protect their staff. Their problem will be that without adequate supply it will be viewed as discriminatory.

If it happens it will be cloth masks. Everyone can have one, just sacrifice a T-shirt, or use a Buff or something similar if you have one. (I went early on this and ordered one as a precaution, FWIW, I can always use it on cold mornings if it's not needed for this!)

 

[westv]

If it happens it will be cloth masks. Everyone can have one, just sacrifice a T-shirt, or use a Buff or something similar if you have one. (I went early on this and ordered one as a precaution, FWIW, I can always use it on cold mornings if it's not needed for this!)

One? You'll need more than one surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One? You'll need more than one surely?

Depending on your clothing size and the size of your head, but you'll get at least 4-6 out of an adult T-shirt. So there are more options.

 

[PeterC]

Found a clip showing how to make a mask out of a large handkerchief or small scarf on Twitter just over a week ago.

Thomas J Bevan (11am-1pm GMT) on Twitter

“Reckon we can pull this off with pocket squares @SartorialThug ? https://t.co/9BcYiwXxOr”

twitter.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't even need to be that complex. Just take a long strip of fabric from a T-shirt and tie it round.

 

[Mogster]

or use a Buff or something similar if you have one.

Thats a good idea, just ordered one in case. If face coverings are mandated on public transport you probably won’t be able to buy one...

 

[yorksrob]

I do have a lot of old t-shirts that don't fit.

 

[Tom B]

I had to be trained in face-fitting of masks a couple of years ago - it was surprising how close it had to be to create a good seal, you had to be totally clean shaven, and this was to seal against dust - which is huge compared to a virus!

Half the people wearing them are taking them on/off, removing them to chat, dangling them around their neck etc and I'm convinced that they see it as a fashion accessory or think that if they have a mask loosely over their mouth they'll be fine and don't have to abide by the 6'6" separation.

 

[MarkyT]

Interesting new study that investigates efficacy of cloth masks for source control of droplets in a simulated setting. It supports the existing research that cloth masks can be very effective for source control.

Performance of fabrics for home-made masks against spread of respiratory infection through droplets: a quantitative mechanistic study

Respiratory infections may spread through droplets, airborne particles, and aerosols from infected individuals through coughing, sneezing, and speaking. In the case of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), droplet spread can occur from symptomatic as well as pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic...

www.medrxiv.org

Performance of fabrics for home-made masks against spread of respiratory infection through droplets: a quantitative mechanistic study

Abstract
Respiratory infections may spread through droplets, airborne particles, and aerosols from infected individuals through coughing, sneezing, and speaking. In the case of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), droplet spread can occur from symptomatic as well as pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic persons. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has therefore recently recommended home-made cloth face coverings for use by the general public in areas of significant community-based transmission. Because medical masks and N95 respirators are in short supply, these are to be reserved for healthcare workers. There is, however, little information on the effectiveness of home-made face coverings in reducing droplet dissemination. Here, we ascertained the performance of ten different fabrics, ranging from cotton to silk, in blocking high velocity droplets, using a 3-layered commercial medical mask as a benchmark material. We also assessed their breathability and ability to soak water. We reason that the materials should be as breathable as possible, without compromising blocking efficiency, to reduce air flow through the sides of the mask since such flow would defeat the purpose of the mask. We found that most home fabrics substantially block droplets, even as a single layer. With two layers, blocking performance can reach that of surgical mask without significantly compromising breathability. Furthermore, we observed that home fabrics are hydrophilic to varying degrees, and hence soak water. In contrast, medical masks are hydrophobic, and tend to repel water. Incoming droplets are thus soaked and 'held back' by home fabrics, which might offer an as of yet untapped and understudied advantage of home-made cloth masks. Overall, our study suggests that most double-layered cloth face coverings may help reduce droplet transmission of respiratory infections.

 

[MarkyT]

I had to be trained in face-fitting of masks a couple of years ago - it was surprising how close it had to be to create a good seal, you had to be totally clean shaven, and this was to seal against dust - which is huge compared to a virus!

Half the people wearing them are taking them on/off, removing them to chat, dangling them around their neck etc and I'm convinced that they see it as a fashion accessory or think that if they have a mask loosely over their mouth they'll be fine and don't have to abide by the 6'6" separation.

As the masks' primary desirable property is to block the spread of droplets from wearers' mouths, it matters less that they make an airtight seal than if they're being worn primarily to protect the wearer, in the case of the medical environment for example. As long as most people wear them most of the time, especially in confined areas, masks should help to reduce transmission rates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting new study that investigates efficacy of cloth masks for source control of droplets in a simulated setting. It supports the existing research that cloth masks can be very effective for source control.

Good to see a "proper" study, this should certainly inform plans. I'm not opposed to masks fundamentally, I'm just opposed to doing things based on conjecture.

Though I would debate the suggestion of not limiting breathability - in my experience they absolutely do, I certainly can't get enough air in to run with a fabric mask on.

 

[111-111-1]

Even if a mask does not stop droplets entirely it will reduce their velocity and thus the distance they can travel. There has regularly been an animation of how far a un restrained cough can travel in a supermarket on tv.

A demo of how to make a cloth one was on tv the other day, I think it was about 8 layers of thin cloth thick which logically will slow any droplets down a great deal.

Of course the storage between use and ether disposal or washing is crutial, as is how they are washed. I can remember my gran boiling handkerchiefs in a saucepan so maybe the old way is still the best? Of course hand hygene after removal will be very important.

 

[111-111-1]

Though I would debate the suggestion of not limiting breathability - in my experience they absolutely do, I certainly can't get enough air in to run with a fabric mask on.

It will only be an issue if they are mandatory when taking exercise, although some proper runners use masks to make them work harder when training.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will only be an issue if they are mandatory when taking exercise, although some proper runners use masks to make them work harder when training.

Interesting on your view of what a "proper runner" is. To me anyone who runs is a proper runner!

I can confirm that works in a different way, though; running (slowly) with untreated asthma basically altitude trained me, when they were doing the tests they found a very high level of red blood cells which was my body compensating, and when I got inhalers it fairly quickly dropped off again and was normal on the tests they did after that. That said, it did give me a bit of a kick of energy in the first few days of treatment!

It's unusual - to the point that it took doctors 3 months with some "cheating" by me[1] to work out what it was - but, perhaps relevantly, I developed asthma as a post-viral thing aged 38, I've not always had it - some sort of chest infection that seems to have caused lasting damage. Based on reports, some COVID patients will get the same thing, but fortunately if it is the same thing a preventer inhaler will "fix" it to allow activity to resume normally over time.

[1] I borrowed a spare inhaler off my sister and tried it. You're clearly not meant to do that, but the doctors were quite appreciative of my reports that it worked!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course the storage between use and ether disposal or washing is crutial, as is how they are washed. I can remember my gran boiling handkerchiefs in a saucepan so maybe the old way is still the best? Of course hand hygene after removal will be very important.

If 20 seconds of handwashing in warm water is enough to kill COVID, washing them in the normal wash (typically 1-2 hours of agitation with soap to break up the lipid layer on the outside of the virus) will kill any of it left on a mask easily enough.

 

[MarkyT]

Good to see a "proper" study, this should certainly inform plans. I'm not opposed to masks fundamentally, I'm just opposed to doing things based on conjecture.

It's very much a 'traditional' measure, just like distancing and staying at home, employed to control major viral respiratory disease outbreaks in the past, such as the 'Spanish flu' pandemic in 1918:

In the 1918 flu pandemic, not wearing a mask was illegal in some parts of America. What changed? | CNN

In 1918, America adopted mask wearing with a greater vengeance than anywhere else in the world. But a century later, it is Asian countries which have remembered the lessons the US learned.

edition.cnn.com