Go Cornwall Bus

[richw]

I really don't blame Go Ahead for this. They haven't set the network - the council has, and it was the council who set the timescale. Despite the ominous warnings of some, PCB did get outbases and depots sorted, did get sufficient vehicles mobilised. Yes, they were always going to have a challenge in getting staff but many of the issues that PCB have would have been equally challenging for FK in the East of the county. Had FK won, they'd have need a vehicle small enough to serve Polruan, or to obtain an outbase to operate Bude locals, or to recruit drivers in Liskeard....and I'm sure they would have.

First Kernow did not bid for any routes outside of their existing geographical area for the reason that we didn’t think it was possible to mobilise or sustain services in additional areas without proper infrastructure, the short timescale and the onerous operational requirements.

Go Ahead are cycling vehicles through Plymouth for maintenance etc With multiple duties each day just doing vehicle transfers to and fro Plymouth. That’s a lot of dead mileage!

 

[MB162435]

You’re right in your assumption in theory.
Unfortunately like yarp1 being stuck in the middle of it all, the Go Ahead element of Transport for Cornwall is conducting itself on the ground in a manner expected by the most cowboy of operators. It’s embarrassing to the industry that Such a large group conduct the way they are. some of the antics I’ve witnessed is unbelievable, and quite frankly you wouldn’t believe if it was typed! All I’ll say is it’s a shame covid is preventing yourself and others being able to observe what’s happening.
To quote a Summercourt Travel driver “they are making us (Summercourt Travel) look professional”

But we would see it with an unbias view, we don't have First groups social media policy to follow like you do

People will moan about TfC like they do with Kernow, prices to high, driver going to fast, bus dirty etc, that's the things the public focus on, and if you moan about one you normally do about them all

 

[ainsworth74]

Things seemed to have got a little heated earlier but have calmed down again now. Let's try and keep it that way if we can thank you

 

[Ian10]

To echo @carlberry, you can point to the different heritages of both FK and PCB. FK is the successor to Western National (1929) or even further back to GWR in Helston (1903), but then again, Plymouth Citybus is the successor to Plymouth Corporation from 1892. The idea is that PCB are some "Johnny Come Lately" or a cowboy outfit who would have O licenses set up is just not credible.

In terms of Cornwall Council, they have (in recent years) done a good job in promoting public transport. We shouldn't forget that they have largely protected their network of tendered services in contrast to many other counties; Somerset and Dorset have butchered their bus budgets and even Devon CC (who I think are a good pro-bus council) have had to make cuts to services. Note that the number of journeys in Devon has fallen markedly from 28.7m in 2014/5 to 24.2m in 2017/8 - not as "thriving" as you might think.

That's not a criticism of Stagecoach or DCC but a reflection of the impact of cuts and wider issues. Both council and operator have worked hard to retain links and there's no small amount of subsidy paid to operators to keep uneconomic but socially necessary services going.

CC have invested in the 16 e200mmc, bus shelters, and I believe, funded the refurbishment of the bus stations in the main. All of that is good stuff and to be applauded. However, they seem to have lost their marbles with the money being lavished, and some fundamental baffling decisions. Not least....

• Creation of a number of brand new services that seem to have little or no defined requirement. @richw is spot on when he points out that the Launceston to Bodmin Parkway will be of use only for passengers heading west. Is there much of demand for passengers from Launceston and Five Lanes to get a train west? Or to travel to Bodmin?
• Because of the above, then the Newquay to Redruth service (that might have some merit) is given a two hourly frequency which seems too low - it would have made more sense to invest in one route that might have had a chance of success, than to neuter it at the expense of another
• The introduction of early morning and later services on routes like Falmouth locals (I think that's right and they carry mainly pass holder) but a major established route like the T2 to St Ives has nothing after 2000.
• As I said before, if they wanted to really get people to modal shift on buses from cars, why weren't they proposing something like a higher frequency network in Truro where there is sufficient population density to really have an effect?

I really don't blame Go Ahead for this. They haven't set the network - the council has, and it was the council who set the timescale. Despite the ominous warnings of some, PCB did get outbases and depots sorted, did get sufficient vehicles mobilised. Yes, they were always going to have a challenge in getting staff but many of the issues that PCB have would have been equally challenging for FK in the East of the county. Had FK won, they'd have need a vehicle small enough to serve Polruan, or to obtain an outbase to operate Bude locals, or to recruit drivers in Liskeard....and I'm sure they would have.

A few points:
a) nobody has suggested there is anything suspicious about the relationship between Corserv (of which Cormac is a part) and Go Ahead. However, it is a fact (as already pointed out by others) that Corserv do not pay rent or business rates. The unfairness of this has been raised in official meetings by councillors in relation to other businesses. The fact that Go Ahead are using Corserv facilities is, therefore, of interest.
b) the council is about to waste huge sums of money on providing new routes or journeys for which there is no evidence of demand. An officer who likes to play with timetables appears to have been given a free hand. In addition to examples already quoted I would add the doubling of frequency on the Truro to St Mawes service 50, between Redruth and Truro on service 46, between Penzance and St Ives on service 16, and between Bodmin Parkway and Wadebridge on services 10 and 11. Also there is the reinstatement of Saturday journeys across the county. They were withdrawn a few years as they were running empty. They will soon be back. There is also the new hourly 89 between Bodmin and Truro. This will only serve 'end to end' traffic as intermediate points eg Indian Queens and Fraddon to Truro already have three buses an hour to Truro. CC have been keen to promote the increased rail service so the 30min frequency by bus from Bodmin to Bodmin Parkway and then the connecting 30min frequency by train to Truro should suffice. The 89 wasn't even included in the base level of services tendered.
c) it is good that Go Ahead have subcontracted to Hopleys, OTS and Travel Cornwall for some services. Surely there should be another operator on that list - First Kernow. This would make sense particularly for the tendered bits on which FK are the main commercial operator including A1, A17, M6, T1/T2, U4, 24, 27, 87. As far as I am aware there has been no approach. There is no agreement on interavailability of tickets so the passengers will suffer. So much for One Public Transport

 

[richw]

But we would see it with an unbias view, we don't have First groups social media policy to follow like you do

People will moan about TfC like they do with Kernow, prices to high, driver going to fast, bus dirty etc, that's the things the public focus on, and if you moan about one you normally do about them all

The main issue with TfC And the negative issues is with agency drivers who do as they please and don’t take care so much of the vehicles. Have a look on enthusiast groups on Facebook in comments if they haven’t been moderated, I know you’re on most of them. There is comments from TfC drivers elsewhere on the network commenting about the poor standards and vehicle damage at Newquay. Newquay is majority agency drivers. A photo taken in a good place to start looking.

On the front line I can assure you passengers are complaining like I’ve never heard before about TfC.

First group social media is irrelevant in my observations on another operator. I will comment what I’ve seen and witnessed which many won’t have seen under restrictions that have been in place. I’ll continue to say what I’ve seen In a factual way and you all can decide On those facts. I will contribute my opinion on the subject which is exactly that.

 

[MB162435]

The main issue with TfC And the negative issues is with agency drivers who do as they please and don’t take care so much of the vehicles. Have a look on enthusiast groups on Facebook in comments if they haven’t been moderated, I know you’re on most of them. There is comments from TfC drivers elsewhere on the network commenting about the poor standards and vehicle damage at Newquay. Newquay is majority agency drivers. A photo taken in Greek is a good place to start looking.

On the front line I can assure you passengers are complaining like I’ve never heard before about TfC.

Newquay does seem to be a hot-spot, I'm in OTS territory so won't see the TfC buses until I return to work, but yeah a few do seem to have a few unfortunate mishaps, but with all Facebook groups rules and admins normally stop the damage from being seen, so you can't see how bad it actually is

Drivers in general seem to go faster with the empty roads, accidents have unfortunately increased during the lockdown, maybe a few more cars on the road will mean they won't get too carried away, but we also don't know necessarily who was at fault, not always the agency driver

People are new to TfC, so will be unsure and critical if they don't do things the same way as Kernow, who themselves seem face a public backlash every few years, normally around prices

 

[richw]

normally around prices

Thankfully TfC will distract from Kernows prices, with theirs being even higher on mirrored routes, except within town zones where they’re cheaper.
My experience of TfC is The Newquay area, so I’m encountering some truly shocking agency drivers (not all of them, and the few permanent staff I’ve met seemed decent people)

 

[richw]

we also don't know necessarily who was at fault, not always the agency driver

Several single vehicle incidents. At least 3 were by taking wrong turns and getting wedged in narrow lanes so could well come down to poor training, unfamiliarity with local area due to be out of area agency drivers, or on the other hand a lack of attention during route learning By the driver

 

[berneyarms]

Again bringing the experience of a brand new operator with completely new staff taking over established routes, Go-Ahead took over all of the orbital bus journeys around Dublin in phases from Autumn 2018 to Spring 2019.

The issues that are being outlined above mirror pretty much what happened in Dublin. Buses taking much longer as drivers weren’t completely familiar with routes, buses taking wrong turns, wrong information on stops (down to the National Transport Authority), far too tight running times, and so on. Bringing in completely new staff is going to always cause problems.

It took about six-nine months for things to settle down and for some air of normality to resume.

I’m not in any way condoning the issues, but there is a learning curve for everyone in these situations. Unfortunately the passengers have to cope with the problems more than most.

The NTA have imposed financial penalties on Go-Ahead for poor performance where appropriate.

I’m reading a lot of parallels with TfC here.

 

[richw]

I’m reading a lot of parallels with TfC here

Totally agree. The biggest issue is agency drivers with attitude they’re only here for 6 months or so and then gone, so less care to details. Many reports of No showing, early running, late running, missing stops, not stopping, not completing routes (the last 93 to Truro has been seen going out of service and turning at carland cross several times When Empty, but it runs only 2-3 mins behind First Kernow 91 so not a massive issue, except for any TfC ticket holders on the remainder of route who can’t use FK services)

 

[richw]

I'm in OTS territory

OTS And hopleys are Both great little businessEs so you will be seeing things done well with pride. Comparing the OTS or Hopleys parts to GA parts is like comparing apples to Pears

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First Kernow did not bid for any routes outside of their existing geographical area for the reason that we didn’t think it was possible to mobilise or sustain services in additional areas without proper infrastructure, the short timescale and the onerous operational requirements.

Just to clarify...are you saying...

• That they did not submit a bid for any routes in the East. Was it a single all consuming package (not regionalised) and therefore it would be a non-compliant tender? Is that right? OR
• That FK were partnering with someone else so whilst FK wouldn't be operating outside their current geography, they had a partner who would and so did submit a full cross county tender?

Again bringing the experience of a brand new operator with completely new staff taking over established routes, Go-Ahead took over all of the orbital bus journeys around Dublin in phases from Autumn 2018 to Spring 2019.

The issues that are being outlined above mirror pretty much what happened in Dublin. Buses taking much longer as drivers weren’t completely familiar with routes, buses taking wrong turns, wrong information on stops (down to the National Transport Authority), far too tight running times, and so on. Bringing in completely new staff is going to always cause problems.

It took about six-nine months for things to settle down and for some air of normality to resume.

I’m not in any way condoning the issues, but there is a learning curve for everyone in these situations. Unfortunately the passengers have to cope with the problems more than most.

The NTA have imposed financial penalties on Go-Ahead for poor performance where appropriate.

I’m reading a lot of parallels with TfC here.

To be honest, these types of wholesale network change are always beset by problems.

A better parallel is what happened with Dorset CC and Go Ahead (Damory), incidentally under the same First Kernow management team of Alex Carter and Marc Morgan-Huws. The similarities there are even more pronounced. A council having a package of tendered services requiring significant numbers of additional vehicles and drivers, opening of new depots and outstations etc and a ridiculously short timescale for getting them done.

The normality time there was about 6 months (and saw AC unfairly carrying the can IMHO) before the dust began to settle.

 

[richw]

Just to clarify...are you saying...

• That they did not submit a bid for any routes in the East. Was it a single all consuming package (not regionalised) and therefore it would be a non-compliant tender? Is that right? OR
• That FK were partnering with someone else so whilst FK wouldn't be operating outside their current geography, they had a partner who would and so did submit a full cross county tender?

Correct first didn’t bid for anything in the east outside of existing operational area. Without seeing the invitation to tender I can’t comment on whether it was compliant. other operational requirements were deemed onerous by first. we know FK lost out on “quality” scoring, so in other words first said no to various wish lists made by the council. Could that be deemed non compliance I’ll let you decide.
First and CC relationship was far from the rosy way some believe it to have been.

 

[berneyarms]

Just to clarify...are you saying...

• That they did not submit a bid for any routes in the East. Was it a single all consuming package (not regionalised) and therefore it would be a non-compliant tender? Is that right? OR
• That FK were partnering with someone else so whilst FK wouldn't be operating outside their current geography, they had a partner who would and so did submit a full cross county tender?

To be honest, these types of wholesale network change are always beset by problems.

A better parallel is what happened with Dorset CC and Go Ahead (Damory), incidentally under the same First Kernow management team of Alex Carter and Marc Morgan-Huws. The similarities there are even more pronounced. A council having a package of tendered services requiring significant numbers of additional vehicles and drivers, opening of new depots and outstations etc and a ridiculously short timescale for getting them done.

The normality time there was about 6 months (and saw AC unfairly carrying the can IMHO) before the dust began to settle.

The exact circumstances you describe above is exactly what happened in Dublin - GoAhead, who had no experience of operating buses in Dublin, took orbital PSO services over from Dublin Bus, had to build a new depot, hire staff and take delivery of new vehicles to a schedule that the National Transport Authority dictated, which was also too short, and it was beset with the problems I'm reading about here. It will resolve itself over time, but clearly CoVid is not helping. As I said in Dublin, it took 6-9 months to get schedules that were realistic and reliable services in place.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Correct first didn’t bid for anything in the east outside of existing operational area. Without seeing the invitation to tender I can’t comment on whether it was compliant. other operational requirements were deemed onerous by first. we know FK lost out on “quality” scoring, so in other words first said no to various wish lists made by the council. Could that be deemed non compliance I’ll let you decide.
First and CC relationship was far from the rosy way some believe it to have been.

Well that will probably explain a lot.

If FK have submitted a non-compliant tender, they won't score as highly on the technical aspects. It also means the comparison on cost is pretty worthless as well?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The exact circumstances you describe above is exactly what happened in Dublin - GoAhead, who had no experience of operating buses in Dublin, took orbital PSO services over from Dublin Bus, had to build a new depot, hire staff and take delivery of new vehicles to a schedule that the National Transport Authority dictated, which was also too short, and it was beset with the problems I'm reading about here. It will resolve itself over time, but clearly CoVid is not helping. As I said in Dublin, it took 6-9 months to get schedules that were realistic and reliable services in place.

Sadly, it's all too common with public sector tenders. I used to think it was some high handed arrogance in that "this is what we want and this is when we want it" but more often, it's much more straightforward in incompetence and bureaucracy.

You have a procurement team who have to follow a defined playbook to ensure they abide by rules on tendering in terms of fair competition, and also to ensure value for money and probity to the taxpayer. They also invariably waste time in pursuing this process but have various timeline constraints (e.g. contracts expiring that they aren't allowed to extend). There is also a naivety as well - the "well, how hard can it be?" sort of view.

That sort of stuff just doesn't happen in the private sector generally. The result is that the delays occur to the timeline. Instead of the start date being pushed back and allowing a sensible project plan to be executed, what happens is that they are responsible for the delay but the contractor ends up having to deal with it.

 

[richw]

It also means the comparison on cost is pretty worthless as well?

No cost is proportional to areas bid for

 

[Ian10]

Correct first didn’t bid for anything in the east outside of existing operational area. Without seeing the invitation to tender I can’t comment on whether it was compliant. other operational requirements were deemed onerous by first. we know FK lost out on “quality” scoring, so in other words first said no to various wish lists made by the council. Could that be deemed non compliance I’ll let you decide.
First and CC relationship was far from the rosy way some believe it to have been.

From what I heard CC did not indicate that they were looking to award everything to one contractor.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No cost is proportional to areas bid for

Not really when you are spreading fixed overhead over a greater amount of activity?

 

[MotCO]

It took about six-nine months for things to settle down and for some air of normality to resume.

I’m not in any way condoning the issues, but there is a learning curve for everyone in these situations. Unfortunately the passengers have to cope with the problems more than most.

I’m reading a lot of parallels with TfC here.

I also recall the difficulties Arriva had in taking over bus services in Malta. Maybe when there is large scale change, the lead-in time is seriously underestimated. Hopefully given 6 months, all will be well in Cornwall.

 

[richw]

From what I heard CC did not indicate that they were looking to award everything to one contractor.

pretty sure you are correct

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I also recall the difficulties Arriva had in taking over bus services in Malta. Maybe when there is large scale change, the lead-in time is seriously underestimated. Hopefully given 6 months, all will be well in Cornwall.

Indeed, and they were bringing in buses from the UK (though moving in ex London bendis probably didn't help).

From what I heard CC did not indicate that they were looking to award everything to one contractor.

Thanks - it's why I asked the question about if it was in regionalised packages. You would have expected FK to be cheaper than a new operator in central/West Cornwall given that they had the existing infrastructure etc, and that looks how it panned out.

Makes you wonder what the respective technical responses looked like!!!

 

[Ian10]

Indeed, and they were bringing in buses from the UK (though moving in ex London bendis probably didn't help).



Thanks - it's why I asked the question about if it was in regionalised packages. You would have expected FK to be cheaper than a new operator in central/West Cornwall given that they had the existing infrastructure etc, and that looks how it panned out.

Makes you wonder what the respective technical responses looked like!!!

Without reopening a can of worms that could take us back to Corserv!

 

[Goldfish62]

From what I heard CC did not indicate that they were looking to award everything to one contractor.

Across schools, local and P&R there were a total of 334 lots which could be individually bid for. For the local bus services 29 bids were received, 25 of which were from small/medium enterprises. There is no way they would have bid for everything.

Unless anyone can prove otherwise I think it's safe to say that the intention to award all local routes to one operator was a myth. PCB simply put in a joint bid for everything which achieved a higher evaluation score than any other combination of bids received.

 

[Goldfish62]

Sadly, it's all too common with public sector tenders. I used to think it was some high handed arrogance in that "this is what we want and this is when we want it" but more often, it's much more straightforward in incompetence and bureaucracy.

You have a procurement team who have to follow a defined playbook to ensure they abide by rules on tendering in terms of fair competition, and also to ensure value for money and probity to the taxpayer. They also invariably waste time in pursuing this process but have various timeline constraints (e.g. contracts expiring that they aren't allowed to extend). There is also a naivety as well - the "well, how hard can it be?" sort of view.

That sort of stuff just doesn't happen in the private sector generally. The result is that the delays occur to the timeline. Instead of the start date being pushed back and allowing a sensible project plan to be executed, what happens is that they are responsible for the delay but the contractor ends up having to deal with it.

Yes, completely agree with this.

It doesn't have to be done like this though. TfL doesn't evaluate bus service tenders in this way. It uses a small dedicated team all of whom have bus operational backgrounds rather than using its standard procurement team. Also, while of course TfL uses MEAT as an overriding principle it doesn't stick to rigid quality scoring. It merely demonstrates how quality criteria have been taken into account in the evaluation papers and avoid being backed into a corner where you have to make an award that you know isn't going to work. You might think that CC, wanting to be another TfL, would gave done some research on this aspect.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Across schools, local and P&R there were a total of 334 lots which couldn't be individually bid for. For the local bus services 29 bids were received, 25 of which were from small/medium enterprises. There is no way they would have bid for everything.

Unless anyone can prove otherwise I think it's safe to say that the intention to award all local routes to one operator was a myth. PCB simply put in a joint bid for everything which achieved a higher evaluation score than any other combination of bids received.

Thanks - that's the sort of information that I was hoping for, and agree with your take on it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Without reopening a can of worms that could take us back to Corserv!

In a world where people look for conspiracy, the truth is usually cock up

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks - that's the sort of information that I was hoping for, and agree with your take on it.

Just editing my post - I meant 334 lots that COULD be individually bid for.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just editing my post - I meant 334 lots that COULD be individually bid for.

I'd read it that way anyway

 

[berneyarms]

In a world where people look for conspiracy, the truth is usually cock up

I would concur - most times it is just exactly that.