Was the InterCity Express Programme (IEP) a success or not?

[Bletchleyite]

I've also had the pleasure of taking an Azuma from Leeds to Doncaster where the prior train (09:45) was cancelled only for a 5 car set to role up from Harrogate to operate the 10:15 and everyone having to squeeze onto that. Now that really queued some complaints!

Not half as many complaints as an outright cancellation.

 

[Clansman]

Erm, Class 397? They're a wall of glass - almost Pacer like. The closest comparison I can think of is the Mk1 - with their all table layout and window alignment as well as both high and wide windows, a modernised Mk1 is very much what they are.

I get the impression that the "small window" issue is primarily caused by speccing everything for 140mph even though it likely won't ever run at that speed. Though 80x don't have anything like the "small window" problem of Pendolinos.

That said, Mk5 and Mk5a are not specced for 140mph (crikey, they were designed for a Sleeper train that doesn't even do 90) and do have small windows.

397s are blessed by a decent seating layout and interior fittings, and that's with body tappering, as well as lower and boxier windows adapted from the first production line of regional specced Civities. So not quite a match for match on dimensions and such as there's still evident narrower profiling.

Mk5As are just adaptations ripped from the CS seated sleeper Mk5 designs, including a pretty much like for like on the specs (ie higher overhead luggage space to accomodate lockable lockers, more personal space and less exposed travelling environment, first class spacing etc).

They are just a complete mess in standard class because of it.

Judging from all of the 'normal' people I've spoken to, it seems to be mainly the same complaints that enthusiasts have - Horrid seats, no luggage space, terrible window to seat alignment and noisy air conditioning in some parts of the carriage.

Biggest complaint I've heard is the awful design of the single seat tables in first class, forcing anyone who isn't small to sit upright so as to avoid having to sit with their legs at an angle because of the supporting pillar.

 

[nlogax]

Overall I sense that people are grieving the loss of HSTs.

Are they? I've not done the ECML in some time but my most recent recollections revolve around HSTs that rode like fairground dodgem cars and sounded like their vestibules were haunted by rats. As for the Mk IVs, the more I used them the more it seemed to me like they were the railway equivalent of cheap buy-to-let flats. Or maybe that's what people considered to be their charm?

I can't - yet - compare them to an Azuma as I've still not had the chance to try one.

 

[Purple Orange]

Are they? I've not done the ECML in some time but my most recent recollections revolve around HSTs that rode like fairground dodgem cars and sounded like their vestibules were haunted by rats. As for the Mk IVs, the more I used them the more it seemed to me like they were the railway equivalent of cheap buy-to-let flats. Or maybe that's what people considered to be their charm?

I can't - yet - compare them to an Azuma as I've still not had the chance to try one.

I should clarify, by reference to people grieving the loss of HSTs, I refer to railway enthusiasts. People in general, do not.

 

[ashkeba]

They could offer a UK gauge New Pendolino, I suppose - but they wouldn't be bi-mode.

Having decided to go for a 125mph non-tilting end-door EMU for the Liverpools, though, CAF have an offering that would fit as ordered by TPE (the 397). Barring LHCS there isn't another 125mph bi-mode on the UK market, though, so those were probably a given - the FLIRT is 110mph.

The FLIRT is 125mph but the UK version is for the 100mph GEML and WAML area. There are rumours it's only limited in software but I think it'd need another motor or two.

 

[Pete_uk]

Apart from the cost of the project and the quality of the product, yeah I suppose so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The FLIRT is 125mph but the UK version is for the 100mph GEML and WAML area. There are rumours it's only limited in software but I think it'd need another motor or two.

To be fair Stadler do have a 140mph product as well (for SBB), though I forget what its silly name is

 

[Energy]

To be fair Stadler do have a 140mph product as well (for SBB), though I forget what its silly name is

Is this the SMILE/EC250?

 

[Halish Railway]

To be fair Stadler do have a 140mph product as well (for SBB), though I forget what its silly name is

Ha Ha, I see what you’ve done there.

Smile (not the bag of spanners at Alton Towers ). It’s quoted as being able to do 155mph and has both 5.5 meter and 7.6 meter variants, so stepless entry is possible, I can’t think of a High speed train that can do that.

 

[43096]

I don't OTOH know why anyone would grieve Mk4s, they are cheap rubbish.

Better seats and a more comfortable ride are two very good reasons. My first impression of AT300s or whatever you want to call them was that the ride was sub-Mark 4 standard (which is saying something in itself) and subsequent journeys on them have given me no reason to change that view.

 

[HowardGWR]

I should clarify, by reference to people grieving the loss of HSTs, I refer to railway enthusiasts. People in general, do not.

I assume you do not travel with XC. Recently, we caught what was going to be a voyager at Bristol but an HST was substituted at the last moment. 'Normals' (ordinary pax, not spotters or enthusiasts) were overheard exclaiming 'how nice these new trains are and how spacious'.

 

[route:oxford]

I assume you do not travel with XC. Recently, we caught what was going to be a voyager at Bristol but an HST was substituted at the last moment. 'Normals' (ordinary pax, not spotters or enthusiasts) were overheard exclaiming 'how nice these new trains are and how spacious'.

Given that HSTs have been the backbone of services through Bristol for 40 years, perhaps they were a bit simple?

 

[HowardGWR]

Given that HSTs have been the backbone of services through Bristol for 40 years, perhaps they were a bit simple?

Not on XC services they haven't been. These pax I think were Taunton commuters (it was about 1700) and normally expected a Voyager, it would seem, from the conversation.

 

[irish_rail]

Given that HSTs have been the backbone of services through Bristol for 40 years, perhaps they were a bit simple?

Crikey what planet are you on?! Accusing someone of being simple because they have a different view to yours?
Every "normal" I have spoken too tends to have similar opinions on voyages as well as class 80x, ie that they aren't great trains. To imply they are simple for preferring a spacious HST is a little bizarre if you don't mind me saying so....

 

[Purple Orange]

I assume you do not travel with XC. Recently, we caught what was going to be a voyager at Bristol but an HST was substituted at the last moment. 'Normals' (ordinary pax, not spotters or enthusiasts) were overheard exclaiming 'how nice these new trains are and how spacious'.

Unfortunately yes I do have to travel on XC, but refurbishing a 45 year old train is not ideal. It is just a sticking plaster. I’d like to see XC procure a fleet of bi-mode IETs, because they too are the sticking plaster that is needed until lines are fully electrified.

 

[ashkeba]

Unfortunately yes I do have to travel on XC, but refurbishing a 45 year old train is not ideal. It is just a sticking plaster. I’d like to see XC procure a fleet of bi-mode IETs, because they too are the sticking plaster that is needed until lines are fully electrified.

I expect XC to suffer HSTs that get passed down yet again and any Voyagers displaced from Avanti WC and EMR.

XC had new trains 20 years ago so shouldn't expect to benefit from IEP. It's not like it's a proper InterCity franchise (!)

 

[supervc-10]

I know in a lot of ways XC aren't a proper Intercity franchise, but that fact is crazy. Apart from the Avanti services from Birmingham north to Scotland, are there any other 'true' intercity services that don't touch London?

 

[stuu]

Given that HSTs have been the backbone of services through Bristol for 40 years, perhaps they were a bit simple?

Most normal people pay no attention to what the train looks like on the outside. This seemed a bit odd to me at one point, until I thought about how I feel about buses, which come in two varieties (single or double decker) as far as I'm concerned. The XC HSTs are very nice inside, far better than voyagers, and certainly don't feel 40 years old

 

[Purple Orange]

I know in a lot of ways XC aren't a proper Intercity franchise, but that fact is crazy. Apart from the Avanti services from Birmingham north to Scotland, are there any other 'true' intercity services that don't touch London?

What is a ‘true’ intercity service? Is it not a train service that transports people between cities as fast as it can?

I am just but a simple train passenger, and when I travel on a TPE IET train, or get on board a XC, I feel like I’m on an intercity train.

I expect XC to suffer HSTs that get passed down yet again and any Voyagers displaced from Avanti WC and EMR.

XC had new trains 20 years ago so shouldn't expect to benefit from IEP. It's not like it's a proper InterCity franchise (!)

I also don’t expect XC to procure any IET units, but rather I agree it will receive the Avanti and EMR units.

 

[ashkeba]

What is a ‘true’ intercity service? Is it not a train service that transports people between cities as fast as it can?

Skipping small stops and an average speed of 60+mph is part of it, but it should also have catering (in normal times), air con and no stops longer than 5 minutes. XC is home of the long stop at Bristol, Peterborough, Derby, Leeds, Newcastle... and is Water Orton or South Wigston really an InterCity stop?

 

[Purple Orange]

Skipping small stops and an average speed of 60+mph is part of it, but it should also have catering (in normal times), air con and no stops longer than 5 minutes. XC is home of the long stop at Bristol, Derby, Leeds, Newcastle...

The length of stop is irrelevant. If I am travelling from Bristol to Edinburgh and my train stops a while at Newcastle, my mind won’t change on whether I’m on an intercity service. That sort of anslysis is for the enthusiasts.

To keep on topic, IETs on the other hand are a success in my view because it embodies what an intercity train should be. Fast and long distance.

 

[squizzler]

The discussion of Voyagers is interesting, as I feel that as a post-privatisation DEMU they are a better comparison with IEP and its derivative products. I feel it worth looking at what technical advances fifteen short years has brought by looking at what people complained about with Voyagers:

• Inadequate accommodation - Great improvement :
  • longer coaches
  • Minimum length 5 cars vis 4 car for voyagers
  • less 'dead space' (crumple zones, etc)
  • No 'tilt profile'
• Intrusive engine noises - Great improvement
  • Better soundproofing
  • Smoother V12 engine vis inline 6 of Voyager.
  • No engines in some cars
• Toilet Smells - Fixed
• Energy and Environment - Great improvement:
  • Factory fitted 'Project Thor' ('Thor' was a proposed bi-mode upgrade to voyager fleet)
  • Efficient modern diesel meeting current emissions controls.
  • Lighter car design

IMO, the scorecard shows a vast technical improvement has been made in the decade and a half that separates their service entry (2016 vis 2001), although many will disagree or feel my analysis misses various things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Skipping small stops and an average speed of 60+mph is part of it, but it should also have catering (in normal times), air con and no stops longer than 5 minutes. XC is home of the long stop at Bristol, Peterborough, Derby, Leeds, Newcastle... and is Water Orton or South Wigston really an InterCity stop?

I don't see why InterCity trains shouldn't stop for a length of time commensurate to making them reliable.

"XC lite" is clearly a regional express service that is a poor fit for the franchise, though.

 

[RailWonderer]

Back to the OP's question, it depends for whom.
If you ask Hitachi, they must be overjoyed at how many orders they have received (over 320 AT300s will exist within the next 2 years)
I find they look and feel like a hospital clinic - cold ambiance, over lit and uncomfortable. I speak for most people (enthusiasts, insiders, normal passengers) However they are achieving very decent MTIN figures and will continue to, and they are cheap.
ToCs clearly feel they are a success because they are cheap and reliable and the only viable intercity option. That said, I'm not sure why no one has ordered that 125mph bi-mode Aventra, or more class 397s, 745s or class 68 LHCS which are all far superior IC offerings. These are also competitive options.

In my view, the program is a failure for the UK rail industry because the point of privatization is to encourage a competition for the best rolling stock at the best price. The AT300s are, to the top brass that are placing these orders, unrivaled in competition on all fronts (price, regulatory approval), so what we have is a sub-par train dominating the IC segment.

 

[Energy]

125mph bi-mode Aventra

Could have been ordered for East Midlands, I think Hitachi have enough capacity while Bombardier are a bit busy with other Aventras at the moment although it could have gone either way.

class 397s or 745s

So far recent long distance EMU orders have been small with apart from LNER which got Hitachi's as part of the IEP. Avanti are getting some but Hitachi's make more sense for it as the fleet of new EMUs is small at only 10 but will not be too small if you include the similar bimodes being ordered. 397s were ordered because Hitachi couldn't build electric IETs in time for TPE. And the 745s made more sense because they share large amounts with the 755s also ordered, I believe anyone trained on a 755 can drive a 745. There just haven't been many long distance EMU orders recently and none of them have been too big.

class 68 LHCS

I don't think DRS are sub leasing out any more 68s and loco hauled just makes less sense for operators than Hitachi bimodes, TPE only got them because CAF said they could delivery them quickly.

or why any better seating hasn't been submitted for regulatory approval.

Avanti are submitting a seat.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ToCs clearly feel they are a success because they are cheap and reliable and the only viable intercity option. That said, I'm not sure why no one has ordered that 125mph bi-mode Aventra, or more class 397s, 745s or class 68 LHCS which are all far superior IC offerings. These are also competitive options.

I don't think any other railway in the world wants a 200 km/h diesel train (or bi-mode with that diesel capability).
Now that GW electrification is "complete" there's precious little 125mph unwired route in the UK to worry about (OK, the northern MML for a while and a bit of XC).
The bi-mode Aventra is unproved (and the electric version is still in the dog-house with software problems).
Stadler might offer a 125mph bi-mode Flirt but there are no takers - anywhere.

 

[gsnedders]

If you look at the Japanese Bullet Train types - whose lineage is proudly cited by Hitachi and all the AT300 operators - they all seem to have piston-era airliner style square windows rather than the landscape rectangular ones of European types. We got off lightly.

Have you ever been on one? Off-hand, I can only recall being on N700s, but the individual windows are absolutely a non-issue with them: by having perfect seat-window alignment, they really aren't a problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back to the OP's question, it depends for whom.
If you ask Hitachi, they must be overjoyed at how many orders they have received (over 320 AT300s will exist within the next 2 years)
I find they look and feel like a hospital clinic - cold ambiance, over lit and uncomfortable.

Which ones have you been on? I would agree for the horrid GWR interior, but the other interiors, particularly the LNER one, are much nicer.

 

[RailWonderer]

Which ones have you been on? I would agree for the horrid GWR interior, but the other interiors, particularly the LNER one, are much nicer.

A few times each on the 395s, the GWR 800s and the LNER ones. They all feel the same. LNER is identical to the GWR apart for the red pattern instead of the lime green. Provided you can have a seat the Voyager has far more comfort and ambiance, especially with the VT interior. The 800s will be inferior to the 221s they will replace, but with more capacity. After over 2 hours from KX to York I was aching on the LNER after 1hr 45 (for reference my favorite seats are the 458 and 390 stock Alstom seats and HST seats).

 

[Geeves]

Always makes me laugh when I hear all the window and seat lineup complaints. The train company could save money by running a train with a least a quarter of the carriages with no windows at all, for the amount of time most passengers these actually look out of them. People are too busy embedded in their phone,laptop,electrical device anyway!

Ive rode on the Shinkansen and the 800 and found both excellent, things have to move on eventually