South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Oscar46016]

ah, so that is a spur off the existing City Line that tracks through Radyr Way housing development?

 

[Envoy]

what is the Cardiff North-West Rail Line ?

The Cardiff North-West Line would come off the City Line just north of Fairwater station. It would then follow the route of a former freight line (single track) north-westward to Cregiau and possibly to
Beddau. If you click this link you will see a map of the area and on it, you should notice a line of trees going along this former railway towards M4 J33:>

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

However, I cannot see it going all the way to Cregiau following the former rail line. What I think might happen is that it will use the large underpass under the M4 on the country lane behind Capel Llanilltern Church. It would probably then snake around the service area at Cardiff West to serve the new developments in this area before following the former dual track line up to Cregiau. (Please note that this is just my guess work).

In addition to the new developments north of J33, it would also serve the new Plasdwr area. The Cardiff LDP received much criticism because of the massive increase in population planned with all these new developments NW of the city yet no transport infrastructure improvements - such as new access to the M4 from the A4119 in the vicinity of J33 without impeding the already overloaded junction. This means that anybody wishing to leave Plasdwr by car has to travel through congested Radyr, Groes Faen, Fairwater, Llandaff, St.Fagans - depending upon which direction they are going. The planning consultants came up with a scheme for bus based transport - which as we all know won’t work as you can’t put bus lanes through Llandaff or Fairwater. So, a new Metro line running NW from Cardiff is absolutely vital in being the most viable way to shift this increase in population as well as serve the present more outlying communities that already exist.

What I consider vital is that P&R facilities are planned along this new line and that it is not just stations only - like we have at Danescourt. One such place where I think a P&R station should be is where this new line crosses Croft-Y-Genneau Road in order to serve the present Rhyd-lava community as well as commuters driving towards Cardiff from vale villages such as Peterson-super-Ely. Failure to do this will simply result in people not using the Metro and continuing to drive into Cardiff. The masterplan for Plasdwr does not allow people who have no business in Plasdwr to go around the development. They actually plan to funnel through traffic - such as from Peterston-super-Ely to Llandaff - into the development - which, quite frankly is bonkers. (A new wider road should be built alongside Pentrebane Lane but that is not what the plans show).

I welcome the move to connect Hirwaun to the network - which should be a quick and easy ‘win’.

 

[si404]

Pontypridd MS Welcomes Another Important Step Towards A Llantrisant To Cardiff Metro Line – GTFM

www.gtfm.co.uk

This source has a quote from Mick Antoniw (Pontypridd member of Sennedd)

“I am over the moon with the progress that is being made to develop plans for a new Cardiff North West Rail Line. The commitment of £565,000 to develop firm plans for a new rail corridor makes possible the reopening of the former Cardiff to Llantrisant railway line, with spurs to Pontyclun and Beddau."

 

[Tumbleweed]

ah, so that is a spur off the existing City Line that tracks through Radyr Way housing development?

Yes. Tram trains/ light railway I think

 

[Tumbleweed]

The Cardiff North-West Line would come off the City Line just north of Fairwater station. It would then follow the route of a former freight line (single track) north-westward to Cregiau and possibly to
Beddau. If you click this link you will see a map of the area and on it, you should notice a line of trees going along this former railway towards M4 J33:>

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

However, I cannot see it going all the way to Cregiau following the former rail line. What I think might happen is that it will use the large underpass under the M4 on the country lane behind Capel Llanilltern Church. It would probably then snake around the service area at Cardiff West to serve the new developments in this area before following the former dual track line up to Cregiau. (Please note that this is just my guess work).

In addition to the new developments north of J33, it would also serve the new Plasdwr area. The Cardiff LDP received much criticism because of the massive increase in population planned with all these new developments NW of the city yet no transport infrastructure improvements - such as new access to the M4 from the A4119 in the vicinity of J33 without impeding the already overloaded junction. This means that anybody wishing to leave Plasdwr by car has to travel through congested Radyr, Groes Faen, Fairwater, Llandaff, St.Fagans - depending upon which direction they are going. The planning consultants came up with a scheme for bus based transport - which as we all know won’t work as you can’t put bus lanes through Llandaff or Fairwater. So, a new Metro line running NW from Cardiff is absolutely vital in being the most viable way to shift this increase in population as well as serve the present more outlying communities that already exist.

What I consider vital is that P&R facilities are planned along this new line and that it is not just stations only - like we have at Danescourt. One such place where I think a P&R station should be is where this new line crosses Croft-Y-Genneau Road in order to serve the present Rhyd-lava community as well as commuters driving towards Cardiff from vale villages such as Peterson-super-Ely. Failure to do this will simply result in people not using the Metro and continuing to drive into Cardiff. The masterplan for Plasdwr does not allow people who have no business in Plasdwr to go around the development. They actually plan to funnel through traffic - such as from Peterston-super-Ely to Llandaff - into the development - which, quite frankly is bonkers. (A new wider road should be built alongside Pentrebane Lane but that is not what the plans show).

I welcome the move to connect Hirwaun to the network - which should be a quick and easy ‘win’.

A few houses in Fairwater would need to be demolished too.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The only problem with the proposal to reopen the Waterhall branch is that the proposed district centre for Plasdwr is a fair distance from the line as are the various planned schools.

It suggests a lack of joined-up thinking when the Plasdwr masterplan was drawn up since the transport corridor was preserved for future use but buried away in residential developments.

 

[Cardiff123]

The only problem with the proposal to reopen the Waterhall branch is that the proposed district centre for Plasdwr is a fair distance from the line as are the various planned schools.

It suggests a lack of joined-up thinking when the Plasdwr masterplan was drawn up since the transport corridor was preserved for future use but buried away in residential developments.

No strategic, joined up thinking between planning departments, councils and transport authorities? Never!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

It's still worth doing but Plasdwr should have been designed around the line not just preserving the corridor as an afterthought.

 

[Envoy]

I think that part of the problem at Plasdwr is that the line goes along the bottom of a valley with marshy land in the vicinity as well as woodland. These areas will be preserved as green space - hence the use of the words ‘garden village’ even though the reality is that the houses will have no more garden as their own land v any other new settlement. You can see this already with the new Redrow houses which are a sort of modern takes on the kind of houses built in 1930’s suburbia - complete with 1930’s size garages which are completely useless for modern cars as you would not be able to open the doors once inside. (You would think that they would have had larger garages complete with electric car charging points and solar panels on south facing roofs).

So, it would appear that the developers were interested in was building on the land that was not marshy and not woodland - which is good from an ecological point of view. However, it does mean that land bordering the A4119 Llantrisant Road is going to have relatively high density dwellings along it - which is clearly undesirable for humans to be living next to such a busy road. (Surely it would have been desirable to have through traffic away from new dwellings). Anyway, it looks to me like those planning this development have said that they would urbanise the A4119 in order to discourage car traffic and therefore the new development area would be ‘sustainable’ - which is the favourite word used by planners in this day & age. All well and good but the cars ain't going to go away and people will drive along this highway to get say from Danescourt to the M4 at J34 (Miskin).

Given that the railway would be away from most of the dwellings and district centres, you would think that they would have planned out where the proposed stations would be built and then devised the best way in which they could be connected. Indeed, one of the Plasdwr illustrations shows trams on the streets at a district centre (image 1). This would clearly not be for the greater good of most people who would use the service. Someone from say Cregiau would not want to go on some meandering route through Plasdwr when they really want to get as quickly as possible to the city centre.

The same lack of forward thinking regarding any new Metro line also applies at the development area N of J33 (images 2 & 3) - where it would be easy to have a ‘village’ centre next to a Metro station. All that we have in the illustrations is a preserved green space where the line could go. (Wonder if they tell those wishing to buy that this could become a Metro route).
They have also planned to build a ridiculous car park for a bus P&R on the NW side of J33. This is well away from the Metro line - should it be built.


J33 is unable to cope as it is and at peak times - traffic backs up along the M4 and down the A4232 - sometimes reaching Culverhouse Cross & beyond. The last thing this junction needs is a business park with a new access point directly onto the gyratory on the north side. It needs a flyover so that traffic from the west heading onto the A4232 does not conflict with that coming off the A4232 and heading east on the M4. Anyway, the Welsh Government & Cardiff’s Planners think otherwise and so we are heading for the disaster where it will be virtually impossible to get on and off this junction with ease. Goodness knows why the Vale of Glamorgan Council did not object more strongly regarding having their main access point going to be further clogged up? J33 is also the main M4 junction for Cardiff Airport so by placing development on it and making congestion even worse, the Welsh Government are well and truly shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Dai Corner]

J33 is unable to cope as it is and at peak times - traffic backs up along the M4 and down the A4232 - sometimes reaching Culverhouse Cross & beyond. The last thing this junction needs is a business park with a new access point directly onto the gyratory on the north side. It needs a flyover so that traffic from the west heading onto the A4232 does not conflict with that coming off the A4232 and heading east on the M4. Anyway, the Welsh Government & Cardiff’s Planners think otherwise and so we are heading for the disaster where it will be virtually impossible to get on and off this junction with ease. Goodness knows why the Vale of Glamorgan Council did not object more strongly regarding having their main access point going to be further clogged up?

I'm going a bit off-topic (sorry) but the fact you had to mention three different authorities illustrates the problem of too many fingers in the pie. Planning and transport needs to be done at a regional level by one body.

 

[Envoy]

I'm going a bit off-topic (sorry) but the fact you had to mention three different authorities illustrates the problem of too many fingers in the pie. Planning and transport needs to be done at a regional level by one body.

I agree and it is the Welsh Government who ‘own’ both M4 and the A4232 - as far south as Culverhouse Cross. We also have in this area to the north west of Cardiff, 3 County boundaries = Cardiff, VOG & RCT. RCT did object strongly to all this development along the A4119 because they correctly realised that most of the new population would use Junction 34 at Miskin to get on/off the M4 and thus drive through the village of Gross Faen. Having an access at or near J33 would have removed a lot of traffic from Gross Faen, Radyr, Llandaff, Fairwater & St.Fagans but the Welsh Government refused this. (Ideally a junction like that shown in ‘1’ below is needed at J33). 2 shows the traffic on the A4232 backing up to Culverhouse Cross from Drope bridge. (This route would have enabled traffic from say Plasdwr to get to Culverhouse Cross - if a connection had been made from the A4119. As things stand, they will drive through St.Fagans and alongside the Ely cemetery as the Metro would only connect to the city centre).

It should also be add that the planned bus P&R from J33 to central Cardiff is another irrational idea. Surely, it would have been better to have a new station on the mainline at J34 - where the Renishaw car park is today? People could then have travelled non stop at 75 mph to Cardiff Central in around 9 minutes. Again - lack of joined up thinking because the Welsh Government told each local authority to draw up their own LDP. (J33 is in Cardiff yet J34 by the main line is only 2 miles west but in Rhondda Cynon Taff with VOG immediately to the south). So, we will get a bus P&R at J33 with parking that would not be near where the Metro line would be in this area - if it is built. They also have the crazy idea that the us shuttles would go to the city centre via Ely and Canton rather than the faster A4232 via the Bay. Perhaps they think that the bus shuttles going via this populated area would pick up workers for the business parks at J33?

 

[edwin_m]

It should also be add that the planned bus P&R from J33 to central Cardiff is another irrational idea. Surely, it would have been better to have a new station on the mainline at J34 - where the Renishaw car park is today? People could then have travelled non stop at 75 mph to Cardiff Central in around 9 minutes. Again - lack of joined up thinking because the Welsh Government told each local authority to draw up their own LDP. (J33 is in Cardiff yet J34 by the main line is only 2 miles west but in Rhondda Cynon Taff). So, we will get a bus P&R at J33 with parking that would not be near where the Metro line would be in this area - if it is built.

A new station on the main line would only ever get two calls per hour, which is far too little for an edge-of-city P&R. People aren't going to use it if they know a few minutes delay on the road could mean a wait of 29min for the next train. Bus or Metro will give a useable frequency and Metro also avoids the congestion so is the best choice. If a Metro line reaches the vicinity of J33 then the P&R can be moved quite easily.

 

[Envoy]

A new station on the main line would only ever get two calls per hour, which is far too little for an edge-of-city P&R. People aren't going to use it if they know a few minutes delay on the road could mean a wait of 29min for the next train. Bus or Metro will give a useable frequency and Metro also avoids the congestion so is the best choice. If a Metro line reaches the vicinity of J33 then the P&R can be moved quite easily.

From the plans for land N of J33, it does not look like the P&R bus car park could be moved quite easily to be alongside the Metro as they plan to build offices or whatever on such land. I agree with your point regarding only 2 trains per hour would be able to call at a Miskin station. However, I do wonder how frequent the Metro would be on this NW line if it has a long single track section going through the Plasdwr area? (The old freight line was only single track and as well as allowing for electric masts, they would presumably also wish to have a cycleway alongside this route)?

Coming off the M4 at J32 to a P&R on the east side of the river by Radyr station would provide the most Metro trains per hour and thus mean that cars could reach this without going through urban areas such as Radyr. However, it would be most desirable if people would switch to rail transport at the nearest station to home rather than drive for miles to stations with P&R on the edge of the city in order to reduce rail costs.

 

[oglord]

We also have in this area to the north west of Cardiff, 3 County boundaries

More pedantry - three council boundaries. What did the poor counties ever do to be misused this way?

 

[edwin_m]

From the plans for land N of J33, it does not look like the P&R bus car park could be moved quite easily to be alongside the Metro as they plan to build offices or whatever on such land. I agree with your point regarding only 2 trains per hour would be able to call at a Miskin station. However, I do wonder how frequent the Metro would be on this NW line if it has a long single track section going through the Plasdwr area? (The old freight line was only single track and as well as allowing for electric masts, they would presumably also wish to have a cycleway alongside this route)?

Coming off the M4 at J32 to a P&R on the east side of the river by Radyr station would provide the most Metro trains per hour and thus mean that cars could reach this without going through urban areas such as Radyr. However, it would be most desirable if people would switch to rail transport at the nearest station to home rather than drive for miles to stations with P&R on the edge of the city in order to reduce rail costs.

I don't have the local knowledge to comment in detail on the P&R sites but would point out firstly that Nottingham tram runs a 10min interval tram service on the single track section at the northern end - the simplified signaling arrangements make it easier than with heavy rail. I notice that most of the railway formation through Plasdwr was cutting or embankment, and if the land within the railway land boundary is still available this can be raised/lowered to grade so the footprint of the bank is useable for a second track or a cycleway. This also makes the tramstops more easily accessible. Again there is an example in Nottingham where the double track Great Central embankment through Wilford has been lowered to grade and there are now two tracks, a cycleway and sound fences.

 

[anthony263]

From the plans for land N of J33, it does not look like the P&R bus car park could be moved quite easily to be alongside the Metro as they plan to build offices or whatever on such land. I agree with your point regarding only 2 trains per hour would be able to call at a Miskin station. However, I do wonder how frequent the Metro would be on this NW line if it has a long single track section going through the Plasdwr area? (The old freight line was only single track and as well as allowing for electric masts, they would presumably also wish to have a cycleway alongside this route)?

Coming off the M4 at J32 to a P&R on the east side of the river by Radyr station would provide the most Metro trains per hour and thus mean that cars could reach this without going through urban areas such as Radyr. However, it would be most desirable if people would switch to rail transport at the nearest station to home rather than drive for miles to stations with P&R on the edge of the city in order to reduce rail costs.

Originally they proposed reopening the pontyclun-Beddau line to give 4tph between Pontyclun and Cardiff combined with an enhanced Maesteg service

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

More pedantry - three council boundaries. What did the poor counties ever do to be misused this way?

Here we go again It's either three council boundaries or one county boundary between the preserved counties of Mid and South Glamorgan or no boundary at all within the historic county of Glamorgan, I think I got that right!

 

[sefyllian]

Here we go again It's either three council boundaries or one county boundary between the preserved counties of Mid and South Glamorgan or no boundary at all within the historic county of Glamorgan, I think I got that right!

Well… RCT and VoG are county boroughs, and Cardiff is a city and county, so county boundaries isn’t entirely incorrect. Technically, the council is the body that administers the area, it’s not the area itself. So a council doesn’t have boundaries as such, although its jurisdiction does. (It’s like saying Hay-on-Wye is on the boundary of the Senedd, for instance. Not wrong, but…) Perhaps we could settle on three local authority boundaries for the ultra-pedantic

But to return to the topic, I’d heard of the Plasdwr development but not realised the scale of it til reading the posts above and following the links. Amazed that it’s gone ahead without proper transport planning, it’s going to cause traffic headaches for decades to come.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

But to return to the topic, I’d heard of the Plasdwr development but not realised the scale of it til reading the posts above and following the links. Amazed that it’s gone ahead without proper transport planning, it’s going to cause traffic headaches for decades to come.

Without doubt. Neil McEvoy is a deeply unpleasant man but he's been right about this all the way. The idea of build first, sort out the transport later should have been binned long ago.

 

[CardiffKid]

what is the Cardiff North-West Rail Line ?

Sound like a potential line/spur:

This scheme has been awarded £565k to enable the further development of proposals for the major scheme, building on work carried out through Metro Plus funding in 2019/20 which saw the completion of the WelTAG Stage 1 assessment. This would be a new rail line in to Rhondda Cynon Taf and would help to provide transport options for residents using the congested A4119.



Also I see Hirwain gets more cash for a study? Wasn’t this studied to death years ago?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I actually walked the formation from Waterhall Rd to the M4 a couple of years ago which was pretty hard going as the footpath soon peters out.

It was only ever a single track railway designed to carry coal and iron ore from the Llantrisant area to Penarth docks when the TVR were trying to big up Penarth as a rival to Cardiff. As such, it's very lightly engineered and I doubt many of the embankments, bridge abutments etc are re-usable. Essentially it would be a case of using the corridor rather than relaying track on an existing trackbed.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Also I see Hirwain gets more cash for a study? Wasn’t this studied to death years ago?

It has been but they didn't have trams to somehow massive difference.

Although seriously with the decision to use train trams could the reopening be done at a lower quality? That and the need for the electrification to be included probably makes it worth doing again.

 

[John R]

It has been but they didn't have trams to somehow massive difference.

Although seriously with the decision to use train trams could the reopening be done at a lower quality? That and the need for the electrification to be included probably makes it worth doing again.

So the lines was used by coal trains until a couple of years ago, so hopefully is in reasonable shape. I guess it depends whether they manage to resist the temptation to conclude that it's necessary to rip everything up and rebuild everything, which seems to be a common feature in re-openings/redoublings managed by Network Rail.

 

[Tumbleweed]

So the lines was used by coal trains until a couple of years ago, so hopefully is in reasonable shape. I guess it depends whether they manage to resist the temptation to conclude that it's necessary to rip everything up and rebuild everything, which seems to be a common feature in re-openings/redoublings managed by Network Rail.

Last time I saw that line, last year, vegetation had started to take hold which means new ballast at the least.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

So the lines was used by coal trains until a couple of years ago, so hopefully is in reasonable shape. I guess it depends whether they manage to resist the temptation to conclude that it's necessary to rip everything up and rebuild everything, which seems to be a common feature in re-openings/redoublings managed by Network Rail.

It's in pretty good condition as it's been maintained to the extent that it "can be brought back into use for goods traffiic at three months notice". It's classed as 'temporarily out of use' rather than 'abandoned'. If you go up there (which you can from Monday - yippee) it looks unused rather than derelict.

 

[Cardiff123]

So the lines was used by coal trains until a couple of years ago, so hopefully is in reasonable shape. I guess it depends whether they manage to resist the temptation to conclude that it's necessary to rip everything up and rebuild everything, which seems to be a common feature in re-openings/redoublings managed by Network Rail.

Except this time any re-opening won't be managed by Network Rail, the line is now in TfW's (Amey Keolis) ownership as part of the Core Valley lines asset transfer to Welsh Govt

 

[John R]

Except this time any re-opening won't be managed by Network Rail, the line is now in TfW's (Amey Keolis) ownership as part of the Core Valley lines asset transfer to Welsh Govt

Indeed, and that was sort of implied in the post, although I'll admit I could have been more explicit. What I was trying to put was that with someone other than NR in charge, maybe the gold-plating tendency of NR which seems to result in costs so high that very few projects are affordable would not occur. Fingers crossed!

 

[Cardiff123]

Indeed, and that was sort of implied in the post, although I'll admit I could have been more explicit. What I was trying to put was that with someone other than NR in charge, maybe the gold-plating tendency of NR which seems to result in costs so high that very few projects are affordable would not occur. Fingers crossed!

Yes let's hope so. After re-reading your post I thought that's what you were implying, but I wasn't sure.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Indeed, and that was sort of implied in the post, although I'll admit I could have been more explicit. What I was trying to put was that with someone other than NR in charge, maybe the gold-plating tendency of NR which seems to result in costs so high that very few projects are affordable would not occur. Fingers crossed!

This is a very good point. It may well be possible to achieve a "quick and dirty" re-opening to Hirwaun by upgrading the existing track and running the trains on battery power. Wires, passing loops etc could come once the demand had been asessed rather than being priced in from the start.

 

[John R]

Exactly that! So as an example, a 30 min service could be achieved without a passing loop, with the southbound service slotting into the appropriate path at Aberdare left vacant by the next northbound service.