South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Tomos y Tanc]

I wouldn’t bank on it. We already have wires from STJ to Cardiff Central so you would think that they would say - well let's make use of them, cut pollution and be future proof for any extension of electrification - which we know will certainly happen to Bristol and Bath? The UK Government might even announce that the wires will be extended to Swansea in order to get in the good books of south Walians ready fo the Welsh Government elections in 2021. Should that happen, then surely it would swing it in favour of new bi-modes or even some pure electric traction for the stoppers? With faster acceleration, it would also help free up space on the line between Cardiff & Swansea.

The point about next year's Welsh election is well made.There are very few ways the UK Government can invest directly in Wales as distinct from just handing money over to the Welsh Governement who then take the credit.

If the UKG does decide to splash some cash on Wales to influence the election, rail investment would be one way of doing it.

 

[Llanigraham]

Interesting that the proposed new station at Gabalfa is missing from that map.

Considering that there are no stations shown on the City line, and some missing on the VoG, I don't see that as being significant

 

[Envoy]

Considering that there are no stations shown on the City line, and some missing on the VoG, I don't see that as being significant

It is significant because although not all the present stations are shown, the key does indicate that proposed stations are shown in green - with some thus marked.

 

[Cardiff123]

The UK Government might even announce that the wires will be extended to Swansea in order to get in the good books of south Walians ready fo the Welsh Government elections in 2021.

This is a joke right? Every possible UK govt funded infrastructure project in Wales since 2010 has been announced, and then cancelled. UK govt don't give a stuff about Welsh infrastructure unless it suits their agenda.

You can guarantee if anything was announced by UK govt before next years Senedd elections, by Parliament's summer recess it would be quietly cancelled on a heavy news day to bury the story.

 

[geordieblue]

This is a joke right? Every possible UK govt funded infrastructure project in Wales since 2010 has been announced, and then cancelled.

To be a bit of a pedant, Cardiff did get electrified (albeit at the cost of the cancellation of Valley Lines, Swansea electrification etc.). Your point still stands though.

 

[Dai Corner]

This is a joke right? Every possible UK govt funded infrastructure project in Wales since 2010 has been announced, and then cancelled. UK govt don't give a stuff about Welsh infrastructure unless it suits their agenda.

Well, there was CASR

Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal (CASR) Project, Cardiff, Wales

The Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal (CASR) project improved station entrances, added new platforms, and upgraded track and signalling to increase…

www.railway-technology.com

 

[anthony263]

I do think we might see Boris offer some money towards electrification to Swansea providing the WG pay towards it too

 

[CardiffKid]

Could help with wires appearing on the Vale and Maesteg lines too.

However TfWs Class 197 that are on order from CAF Civity will be all electric diesel so the only trains using the wires west of Bridgend will be GWRs 800s and with one an hour the old arguments still stand. Unless theres a commitment to get two Swansea-London tph of course.

 

[Energy]

However TfWs Class 197 that are on order from CAF Civity will be all electric

All diesel

 

[Oscar46016]

I wouldn’t bank on it. We already have wires from STJ to Cardiff Central so you would think that they would say - well let's make use of them, cut pollution and be future proof for any extension of electrification - which we know will certainly happen to Bristol and Bath? The UK Government might even announce that the wires will be extended to Swansea in order to get in the good books of south Walians ready fo the Welsh Government elections in 2021. Should that happen, then surely it would swing it in favour of new bi-modes or even some pure electric traction for the stoppers? With faster acceleration, it would also help free up space on the line between Cardiff & Swansea.

Interesting point about the "electric lines" and "lets make use of them" - I presume they are owner by Network Rail - but in someway GWR pays for the juice and the upkeep?

If say TfW started using them - it might cost more money that using diesel?

 

[CardiffKid]

All diesel

yes that’s what I meant!

 

[Envoy]

Could help with wires appearing on the Vale and Maesteg lines too.

However TfWs Class 197 that are on order from CAF Civity will be all electric diesel so the only trains using the wires west of Bridgend will be GWRs 800s and with one an hour the old arguments still stand. Unless theres a commitment to get two Swansea-London tph of course.

The TfW stopping services between Swansea and Cardiff could be electric and these could be extended eastwards to serve Cardiff East Parkway, Newport, Severn Tunnel Junction and possibly Bristol/Bath or if bi-mode, up the Severnside line to Gloucester & Cheltenham. What would be plain stupid would be to order new trains for the Cheltenham to Maesteg line that are diesel only and then find that the line west of Cardiff gets electrified with only the GWR 800’s able to use the wires. Note also that at peak times, it is more than an hourly service in/out of Swansea for the GWR 800’s.

No doubt that GWR would welcome electrification to Swansea as it would be cheaper to maintain the IET Class 800’s. The whole reason that electrification got cancelled west of Cardiff is because Network Rail could not deliver on time and to cost the London to Cardiff section. Many have said on these forums that the ugly category is over engineered and hence has driven up costs. When they started at the London end, they were drilling down into cables laid years ago as they were not in ducts. You would think that they would have known about this in the first place? I note that they have now found a good way of insulating the underside of bridges to prevent arching -something which they have done where the valley lines cross the main line east of Cardiff Central. Of course, when the UK government found that Network Rail were not going to deliver the electrification in time for the arrival of the 800’s, they then had to pay Hitachi more money to make the whole fleet bi-mode. Perhaps that was just as well as it was only a month ago that they were finally able to go through the Severn Tunnel on electric due to salt water corroding the original fixtures done 4 years ago.

I would also like to add that all 4 tracks between Cardiff & STJ are wired so it would be ideal for any stoppers calling at additional stations to use the relief lines and run on electric power. I think that the most important new station shown on the Metro map is Cardiff East Parkway. As things stand, anybody in Cardiff East wishing use the trains has to travel by road into central Cardiff or the other way to Newport. This must surely be a great disincentive to use rail transport for a large proportion of Cardiff residents? So, let's make use of this 4 track electrified railway rather than just have the relief’s being used by diesel powered freights.

 

[Mollman]

I thought the 170s were going on Cheltenham - Maestag? If so probably would be as bad to replace with bi-mode / electric after only a few years.

 

[CardiffKid]

I thought the 170s were going on Cheltenham - Maestag? If so probably would be as bad to replace with bi-mode / electric after only a few years.

170s currently run to Maesteg, Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale, they're due to be replaced by 11x 4 car Class 231s which are bi-mode in 2022 when the 170s move to the Heart of Wales line. The 231s will also run between Bridgend and Cardiff via the Vale

The class 231s could run on electric as far as Bridgend if the mainline is electrified. But post 2022 the only TfW serves west of Bridgend should be Class 197s which are 100% diesel. If the 231s (all 77 of them) where bi-bode then you would have amuch stronger case for Cardiff-Swansea electrification.

 

[Dr Day]

I believe the intended future service pattern links Maestegs and Ebbw Vales, with the Cheltenhams linked to West Wales services. The Cheltenhams certainly have a minimum journey time in the published Train Service Requirement similar to the existing (150?) timings, so any additional time going on the slower reliefs and/or additional calls will need to be made up by better acceleration.

As has been done to death before, part of the reason for the cancellation for Cardiff-Swansea electrification was that the line speeds remained constrained by the track infrastructure therefore the benefits in journey time terms were minimal.

 

[Domh245]

170s currently run to Maesteg, Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale, they're due to be replaced by 11x 4 car Class 231s which are bi-mode in 2022 when the 170s move to the Heart of Wales line. The 231s will also run between Bridgend and Cardiff via the Vale

The class 231s could run on electric as far as Bridgend if the mainline is electrified. But post 2022 the only TfW serves west of Bridgend should be Class 197s which are 100% diesel. If the 231s (all 77 of them) where bi-bode then you would have amuch stronger case for Cardiff-Swansea electrification.

The 231s are pure DEMUs (if they were bi-modes, they'd be numbered in the 75x-799 range) and like you say there's only 11 of them. They could however be converted to bi-mode more easily than the 197s (which there are 77 of)

 

[Colind]

I note that there is no mention on the map of a station at Ely Mill on the City Line. It is also regrettable that nothing seems to be planned for a station at Caerleon.

Would it not have been wise to have a Flirt capable of using the overhead wires between Severn Tunnel Junction & Cardiff Central for services to Cheltenham rather than just DMU’s? In the event that electrification is extended west of Cardiff to Swansea & the branch to Maesteg, then we would have had local trains that could make use of the wires. As things stand, we would be stuck with diesel power for say a stopping service between Swansea and Cheltenham or even Bristol/Bath. Such short sightedness!

The FLIRTS use overhead wires, they are tri-modes.You probably meant the CAF trains, and I agree with you!

 

[Domh245]

The FLIRTS use overhead wires, they are tri-modes.

Some of the FLIRTs. As I said above, 11 of the 4 car units are pure DEMUs, but the other 24 (including all of the 3 car variants) are tri-mode

 

[Energy]

Some of the FLIRTs. As I said above, 11 of the 4 car units are pure DEMUs, but the other 24 (including all of the 3 car variants) are tri-mode

Why did they go for some DEMU flirts? Is there a difference in diesel range?

 

[Colind]

Some of the FLIRTs. As I said above, 11 of the 4 car units are pure DEMUs, but the other 24 (including all of the 3 car variants) are tri-mode

Apologies, didn't you see your earlier message. Should have done a screen refresh before posting a reply!

 

[Envoy]

170s currently run to Maesteg, Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale, they're due to be replaced by 11x 4 car Class 231s which are bi-mode in 2022 when the 170s move to the Heart of Wales line. The 231s will also run between Bridgend and Cardiff via the Vale

The class 231s could run on electric as far as Bridgend if the mainline is electrified. But post 2022 the only TfW serves west of Bridgend should be Class 197s which are 100% diesel. If the 231s (all 77 of them) where bi-bode then you would have amuch stronger case for Cardiff-Swansea electrification.

The 170’s will also move to west Wales for the Swansea to Pembroke Dock services.

Are you sure that the 197’s will be the only TfW trains west of Bridgend from 2022? These are the long distance trains running from Manchester to west Wales. Surely, they would not be expected to morph into stoppers at places like Pyle & Baglan when going all the way from Manchester to Milford Haven? I would have thought that at least an hourly stopping service would continue between Cardiff & Swansea or possibly a Cardiff > Barry > Airport > Llantwit Major > Bridgend > all stops to Swansea service thus giving a direct service between the Airport and the second city of Wales. (As things stand, you could be waiting 25 minutes at Bridgend for the next train to Swansea).

I note that Grand Union have applied to run a Class 800 IET service between Llanelli and London. This of course, would also make use of the wires west of Cardiff.

Home - Grand Union Trains Ltd

Railways to our Core At Grand Union we are passionate about Britain’s railways. We are committed to the traditional values of providing a high-quality customer service and a comfortable journey experience at a fair price. Find out more Grand Union is proposing

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

 

[PHILIPE]

We are getting off the Metro discussion here and talking about points already discussed in the "Future Rolling Stock" thread. Just to clear up and talk of the Flirts working to Swansea and Bridgend can only work under the wires via the Vale if it is electrified. They are intended to work to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale. Anything local to serve the Swan Line stations if not CAFs will, in my opinion, be Class 170s to enable them to cycle round via Canton whilst covering the West and Heart of Wales services. Much of this is, at the moment, speculation.

 

[anthony263]

There's still no idea whats going to operate swanline post 2022. Either extra class 231s need to be ordered or 2nd hand emus brought in. Plenty of them going around. How many would it require for an hourly Swansea to Bristol to service

 

[Domh245]

Why did they go for some DEMU flirts? Is there a difference in diesel range?

Doubt that there's any range benefit to doing it, the weight of a transformer + pantograph will be fairly small in the scheme of things. I suspect that like most things on this franchise it was penny pinching to try and get the whole fleet replacement within the smallest possible budget.

 

[CardiffKid]

The 231s are pure DEMUs (if they were bi-modes, they'd be numbered in the 75x-799 range) and like you say there's only 11 of them. They could however be converted to bi-mode more easily than the 197s (which there are 77 of)

Sorry I thought the 231s would be powered by diesel and OHE.

 

[CardiffKid]

We are getting off the Metro discussion here and talking about points already discussed in the "Future Rolling Stock" thread. Just to clear up and talk of the Flirts working to Swansea and Bridgend can only work under the wires via the Vale if it is electrified. They are intended to work to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale. Anything local to serve the Swan Line stations if not CAFs will, in my opinion, be Class 170s to enable them to cycle round via Canton whilst covering the West and Heart of Wales services. Much of this is, at the moment, speculation.

I agree we're getting of topic slightly. Bar the 1tph GWR service to London (and the speculative Grand Union service) there are still no firm plans to send anything other than diesel west of Bridgend (the western end of the Metro) is there?

 

[Envoy]

While many regard the core Metro as the valley lines north of Cardiff plus the lines to Penarth, Barry, Rhoose, Llantwit Major & Bridgend, I don’t think we are going off topic in also covering the east - west route, Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and Marches route as far as Abergavenny. These are all commuter routes into Cardiff and are all shown on the Metro Map whose eastward extent is Chepstow - though, of course, some also commute from Lydney & Bristol.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Some more news about the Metro around RCT

Funding of Almost £2m Secured to Take Forward Package of Rail Projects Across RCT

Five major transportation projects across Rhondda Cynon Taf have secured more than £1.9m of combined total funding as part of the South Wales Metro.

www.rctcbc.gov.uk

"The schemes in Upper Boat, Treforest, Porth, the northern Cynon Valley (Aberdare to Hirwuan), and Taff Ely via the Cardiff North West line, have all received funding after successful bids were made by the Cardiff Capital Region City Deal’s Transport Authority (CCRTA) via Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, who agreed to bid on behalf of the CCRTA as the “lead Authority” to the Welsh Government’s Local Transport Fund."

 

[Oscar46016]

what is the Cardiff North-West Rail Line ?

 

[Tumbleweed]

what is the Cardiff North-West Rail Line ?

The line from Fairwater to Creigiau. It's proposed to reopen it and extend to Talbot Green and/or Beddau.