Car ownership: does it improve lives or is it detrimental?

[RT4038]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-incentive-is-there-to-go-by-train.206259/

Actually, many people own a car as a lifestyle choice;

Of course, but the lifestyle on offer without one is greatly inferior.

 

[theironroad]

Of course, but the lifestyle on offer without one is greatly inferior.

Wow, just wow.

 

[Ianno87]

Of course, but the lifestyle on offer without one is greatly inferior.

Disagree. Owning a car is actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, and they don't even realise it. E.g. the standard tailgaiting Larry Leadfoots who seem permanently in an irrational, angry rush.

 

[BigCj34]

Disagree. Owning a car is actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, and they don't even realise it. E.g. the standard tailgaiting Larry Leadfoots who seem permanently in an irrational, angry rush.

Agreed. Society was (and still is) sold the pup that car ownership is an aspirational lifestyle symbol. Now that urban areas had largely been built around it, and congestion is commonplace, you are either burning your mental wellbeing being stuck in traffic with long commutes or making journeys more difficult by not owning a car.

 

[yorksrob]

Disagree. Owning a car is actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, and they don't even realise it. E.g. the standard tailgaiting Larry Leadfoots who seem permanently in an irrational, angry rush.

It's just another thing to go wrong (expensively). Like a heating boiler.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Disagree. Owning a car is actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, and they don't even realise it. E.g. the standard tailgaiting Larry Leadfoots who seem permanently in an irrational, angry rush.

This seems to conflate owning a car with the way that it might be driven. Sadly there are many selfish, inconsiderate, noisy, lazy, dirty, etc. people using trains and other forms of public transport that frequently make journeys very unpleasant even within the vehicle (quite apart from being pestered and abused at stations and so forth). The concept of 'personal space' is a very powerful incentive to use a car either individually or with companions.

I am a fairly relaxed individual and don't generally let other vehicle drivers stress me out. But having to put up with unappealing fellow travellers in close proximity for an extended period can frequently ruin the enjoyment of a train journey.

 

[Ianno87]

It's just another thing to go wrong (expensively). Like a heating boiler.

My mum used to conplain about the cost of public transport. When she pranged her car door and it cost quite a few hundred quid to fix, it seems it didn't apply the other way around.

This seems to conflate owning a car with the way that it might be driven. Sadly there are many selfish, inconsiderate, noisy, lazy, dirty, etc. people using trains and other forms of public transport that frequently make journeys very unpleasant even within the vehicle (quite apart from being pestered and abused at stations and so forth). The concept of 'personal space' is a very powerful incentive to use a car either individually or with companions.

I am a fairly relaxed individual and don't generally let other vehicle drivers stress me out. But having to put up with unappealing fellow travellers in close proximity for an extended period can frequently ruin the enjoyment of a train journey.

If somebody is bothering you on a train, you can just go sit somewhere else. Or read a book, mind your own business and take no notice.

 

[miami]

most car-owners in my area

Your area is London. London is an abnormality acounting for less than 15% of the country.

 

[mmh]

Your area is London. London is an abnormality acounting for less than 15% of the country.

And even then it's not as abnormal as he claims. Almost half of journeys to work in London involve a car, by Transport for London's figures. This has been mentioned previously, but it is ignored because it doesn't fit the myth of a city which could solely rely on public transport.

 

[RT4038]

Disagree. Owning a car is actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, and they don't even realise it. E.g. the standard tailgaiting Larry Leadfoots who seem permanently in an irrational, angry rush.

Fine. You have the lifestyle without a car, and I'll have the one with.

Not sure about owning a car being actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, but there will be an equal amount of detrimental effect caused by the inconvenient and unreliable services provided by public transport.

 

[Ianno87]

Fine. You have the lifestyle without a car, and I'll have the one with.

Not sure about owning a car being actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, but there will be an equal amount of detrimental effect caused by the inconvenient and unreliable services provided by public transport.

I have a car. But using it without intelligent thought beforehand is a bad habit.

Rail travel and public transport is far more reliable than road. Road has very little certainty on journey time or reliability compared to rail.

 

[najaB]

Car ownership: does it improve lives or is it detrimental?

Car ownership can only be detrimental since it incurs numerous expenses*. You can get the benefits of using a car without owning a car - e.g. being a member of a car club, renting when you need one or leasing a car.

Depending on (a) the public transport options available; and (b) your lifestyle, the utility offered by a car is definitely a plus. However, for others having easy access to a car would provide little or no benefit. So the only possible answer to the question is: It depends on the individual.

*Ignoring for now the emotional benefit that some people get from maintaining a car, and possible future increase in value if the car becomes a "classic".

 

[gswindale]

I have a car. But using it without intelligent thought beforehand is a bad habit.

Rail travel and public transport is far more reliable than road. Road has very little certainty on journey time or reliability compared to rail.

However, when my office moved about 10 years ago, it became more reliable for me to travel in by car than using the train & shuttle bus to the business park due to congestion in the town where the shuttle bus ran from.

So for a move of a couple of miles away from me, I switched from a 15min walk, 15min train ride and a 2min walk, to having either a 15min walk, a 20min train ride, an 11min (timetabled) bus journey and a 3min walk or alternatively what is roughly a 25min drive door to door. Occasionally it does take a bit longer to drive, but not very often and it does provide more flexibility.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This seems to conflate owning a car with the way that it might be driven. Sadly there are many selfish, inconsiderate, noisy, lazy, dirty, etc. people using trains and other forms of public transport that frequently make journeys very unpleasant even within the vehicle (quite apart from being pestered and abused at stations and so forth). The concept of 'personal space' is a very powerful incentive to use a car either individually or with companions.

I am a fairly relaxed individual and don't generally let other vehicle drivers stress me out. But having to put up with unappealing fellow travellers in close proximity for an extended period can frequently ruin the enjoyment of a train journey.

My worst experience is school kids on the bus. Shouting as loud as they can. Don't know how the driver can concentrate. My girlfriend will let the bus go without her if it has kids on board.

I have a car. But using it without intelligent thought beforehand is a bad habit.

Rail travel and public transport is far more reliable than road. Road has very little certainty on journey time or reliability compared to rail.

I agree. Quite often I will try and walk. But with COVID-19 around I will avoid buss, train and tram as much as I can at any cost. Especially as the wearing of masks is not common enough - yet.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Your area is London. London is an abnormality acounting for less than 15% of the country.

I didn't claim anything about areas elsewhere.

 

[AlbertBeale]

And even then it's not as abnormal as he claims. Almost half of journeys to work in London involve a car, by Transport for London's figures. This has been mentioned previously, but it is ignored because it doesn't fit the myth of a city which could solely rely on public transport.

The fact that London work journeys aren't all by means other than private cars doesn't mean that most of them couldn't be. Every car journey, even where it is helpful to the driver, is worsening life for the rest of us.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Fine. You have the lifestyle without a car, and I'll have the one with.

Not sure about owning a car being actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, but there will be an equal amount of detrimental effect caused by the inconvenient and unreliable services provided by public transport.

The key point about people driving cars is not what it does or doesn't do to their mental (or physical) health; the fact is it's bad for the mental and physical heath of the rest of us.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Disagree. Owning a car is actively detrimental to many peoples' mental health, and they don't even realise it. E.g. the standard tailgaiting Larry Leadfoots who seem permanently in an irrational, angry rush.

They're the same people who assault guards when told their ticket is invalid and the likes. They just live their entire lives angry, just like some people live their lives in constant fear. The car is just another manifestation of that.

Personally, I find that car ownership does enhance my life. It allows me to make journeys which are awkward by rail, and to avoid getting soaked and freezing cold if the weather is bad. It allows me to transport "stuff" rather than just me. It has allowed more mobility during coronavirus than otherwise.

I think I would be unlikely to give it up, unless I was living in a large city near the centre and there was a decent car club to join.

Just because you own one doesn't mean you have to use it for absolutely every journey. Shorter journeys without much "stuff" are better cycled or walked. Long distance journeys or going to a city are better by rail. Going a really long distance is better by air. But you can't deny that cars are very, very useful indeed.

The fact that London work journeys aren't all by means other than private cars doesn't mean that most of them couldn't be. Every car journey, even where it is helpful to the driver, is worsening life for the rest of us.

Have you never, ever benefitted from car travel in any form? Never had a lift? Never taken a taxi? Never taken a train or bus, the driver or guard of which had to use a car to get to the depot in order to be able to drive it for you because they started early enough that there wasn't a service?

 

[GusB]

Whether car ownership improves lives very much depends on how frequent, reliable and pleasant to use your local public transport system is, and if it fits in with your own personal travel needs. When I moved back here nearly 20 years ago, I had a half-hourly bus service during the day and an hourly service in the evenings up until 11pm. I had no need for a car when my travel needs only required one return bus journey. The moment I started working further afield it became two bus journeys, and on the occasions when I had an 8pm finish it really was quite stressful trying to get rid of your last customer (call-centre environment) in order that I could make the last bus that connected with my local bus. Despite my employer promoting car-sharing, it wasn't always the case that there would be a lift available (even to catch my second bus), and on a few occasions I was left with a £20+ taxi bill just to get home.

I bought a second-hand Micra for £350 and despite it requiring a new clutch fairly early on, the day-to-day running costs were far less than what I'd been spending on two point-to-point unlimited travel tickets on the bus. My journey home only took me 20 minutes as opposed to 20+20 (and the hour+ waiting time inbetween) which meant I could get home, have tea and get changed before getting to my local for a couple of beers. It was an immense improvement to my life at the time. Not having to leave home for work 2 hours before I was due to start was by far the biggest benefit.

 

[UP13]

Before I met my wife I didn't have a car (other than occasionally borrowing my dad's). Life with a car is much better than without. Especially now with children.

I can't imagine doing big family shops without the car. Before anybody suggests doing a little shop everyday, we have a teenager who eats a lot and two children under the age of 6 plus we both work full time. It is also far more economical to buy weekly too.

Also I can't imagine doing lots of chores and spontaneous activities without it. My eldest son and I both play rugby and have to do away games without public transport options. We do car pool with others when we can but sometimes you do need to drive yourselves.

BTW my preferred method of transport is the bike and I try to use that when I can (I even used to commute with it when I worked 10 miles away). We try to do the train when going places like Kingston or Central London.

We used to do the train for visiting the Watercress and the Bluebell but stopped doing that as one of my younger children has a medical condition, which affects toileting and to spare you all the details, it's far less stressful having a car that yiu can use to store things and go home when you want to, rather than carrying everything around or having to be at the mercy of waiting for a specific train (because we can only afford to buy in advance).

 

[The Ham]

And even then it's not as abnormal as he claims. Almost half of journeys to work in London involve a car, by Transport for London's figures. This has been mentioned previously, but it is ignored because it doesn't fit the myth of a city which could solely rely on public transport.

The fact that London work journeys aren't all by means other than private cars doesn't mean that most of them couldn't be. Every car journey, even where it is helpful to the driver, is worsening life for the rest of us.

Around 20% of car travel in London is for journeys which are less than 2 miles, even if half of those trips were no longer taken by car that would reduce traffic to the point where congestion would be significantly lower.

As whilst 10% doesn't sound a lot if it makes the difference between a junction being at 99% capacity and 89% capacity it has a big impact on the length of the queues, which can mean the difference between them blocking back through nearby junctions.

Even a small decrease in the number of parked cars could have a significant impact, either by freeing up road space for all road users, or by having a few spaces on a street replaced by trees would make a big difference to the attractiveness of many urban streets.

However there would be further benefits, air quality would improve as the trees would help improve it beyond them not being there. It would reduce the risk of flooding and if done well could improve the water quality of the water entering the drainage system. Also it would improve biodiversity.

If every car was used an average of 2 miles a week less then it would reduce miles travel by the same amount as taking 370,000 cars off the roads. In the big picture that's not a big number, however the vast majority of people would be able to reduce their weekly milage by an average of 2 miles.

That still leaves plenty of scope to use a car when it's wet, when there's a large load to carry, or whatever reason why people may still need to keep a car; whilst still reducing overall miles traveled.

Even if that reduction is by "park and stride", driving most of the way and walking a bit further to get to your end destination.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't imagine doing big family shops without the car. Before anybody suggests doing a little shop everyday, we have a teenager who eats a lot and two children under the age of 6 plus we both work full time. It is also far more economical to buy weekly too.

Delivery is your answer there.

 

[RT4038]

I have a car. But using it without intelligent thought beforehand is a bad habit.

Rail travel and public transport is far more reliable than road. Road has very little certainty on journey time or reliability compared to rail.

Of course one must be intelligent about car use. However, to some people, intelligent use means putting the car to use at any time that it more economical than travelling by public transport, which will inevitably mean most journeys (unless you a commuter to a big city) if you consider the fixed ownership costs as a sunk cost to have the lifestyle that not relying on public transport gets you. Others (myself included) are prepared to pay the extra to use public transport for some journeys that could have been made by car, in my case to avoid the hassle of driving, and/or because I am an enthusiast, and/or because I wish to avoid the expense of owning a second car when my wife wants to use it at the same time as me!

I am not sure at your reliablity assertation [maybe some kind of countrywide average?].....
I live in a town with reasonably free moving traffic, with congestion only at weekday school times (and that quite predictable). Journey times by road are reliable, and any incident affects cars and road public transport alike. However, most of my car journeys are in the evening (when there is no public transport) or at weekends, and they are very reliable.
My regular longer distance journey (of about 40 miles) involves a reliable car journey of 70-75 minutes. The public transport option (broadly following the line of the direct road) involves a 30 min walk to the station, a train ride (3ph) of 20 minutes, a 10 minute walk from Station to Bus stand, 20-30 minutes of waiting and a bus journey (hourly frequency) of 60 minutes, with a 5 minute walk at the end. Total 145-160 minutes. By car the return trip takes the morning, or the afternoon or the evening, any day, any possible departure time from either end. By public transport the return trip takes the best part of a day, cannot be made in the evening, and on Sundays is severely limited as to the time it can be made. I have made the journey many times by my car and by public transport. My car has never been delayed by shortage of crew, incident on the line, earlier incident on the line, signal failure, overhead line fault, broken down train etc etc. The one significant delay to a return car journey, in the late evening was caused by a road closure due to repairs to a railway bridge!
The bus part of the journey has rarely had any delay, but the anticipation as I arrive at the Station, particularly on the return journey......

 

[UP13]

Delivery is your answer there.

Did so years ago but I got fed up with the illogical substitutes and having to be home at specific times. I also shop at Lidls, who don't do home delivery, and being honest I enjoy being able to get out of the house on a Saturday morning.

I'm not saying anybody needs a car to enjoy life but having lived as an adult both with and without a car, it is much easier and less stressful with a car. Having said that I happily cycle or take the train when I can.

 

[PeterC]

Did so years ago but I got fed up with the illogical substitutes and having to be home at specific times. I also shop at Lidls, who don't do home delivery, and being honest I enjoy being able to get out of the house on a Saturday morning.

I'm not saying anybody needs a car to enjoy life but having lived as an adult both with and without a car, it is much easier and less stressful with a car. Having said that I happily cycle or take the train when I can.

Before we had children we could manage without a car because:
1. We lived near a station and both worked in central London
2. If a vehicle was needed we could borrow one of my parents' two cars.

Now my parents have passed away and I live in the country which makes a car essential.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Delivery is your answer there.

My experience of supermarket deliveries is hit and miss. It can be useful, but equally having someone else choose your stuff for you has drawbacks (short use-by dates, bruised fruit and veg, etc). And that's before we get onto substitutions, or the challenge of getting a slot when you want one.

I've spent time without a car when I was single, both in Newcastle and London, and it was fine. Newcastle is blessed by a good market in the city centre so supermarket shopping wasn't so essential, and a bus from my house went to Aldi for the rest. And London has excellent public transport, again with a bus from the big Tesco to my house.

I've also spent time with a car, both one car and two cars more recently. Driving to work in North Tyneside was easier than the Metro, especially when my younger daughter started nursery. I would not be without a car here.

For me, if you're childless and in a big city you don't need a car. If either of those don't apply, the flexibility of a car outweighs the cost.

 

[nlogax]

Cars have always improved my life. I like driving and it's important for work (actually almost mandatory for the role) when certain sites are nowhere near a railway line. If I didn't have one I'd probably be fine living here within easy reach of central London. For me having a car is a lifestyle and convenience choice that also eases my work. And that work funds the car ownership.

All that said, with current events what they are I'm reevaluating my next choice of car and the expense involved. If things continue like this I have a feeling there'll be minimal travel to work sites as part of a whole new way of working.

 

[anthony263]

I own a car but only use it when I cant use public transport

 

[Peter Sarf]

They're the same people who assault guards when told their ticket is invalid and the likes. They just live their entire lives angry, just like some people live their lives in constant fear. The car is just another manifestation of that.

Personally, I find that car ownership does enhance my life. It allows me to make journeys which are awkward by rail, and to avoid getting soaked and freezing cold if the weather is bad. It allows me to transport "stuff" rather than just me. It has allowed more mobility during coronavirus than otherwise.

I think I would be unlikely to give it up, unless I was living in a large city near the centre and there was a decent car club to join.

Just because you own one doesn't mean you have to use it for absolutely every journey. Shorter journeys without much "stuff" are better cycled or walked. Long distance journeys or going to a city are better by rail. Going a really long distance is better by air. But you can't deny that cars are very, very useful indeed.



Have you never, ever benefitted from car travel in any form? Never had a lift? Never taken a taxi? Never taken a train or bus, the driver or guard of which had to use a car to get to the depot in order to be able to drive it for you because they started early enough that there wasn't a service?

This very much fits with my feelings. There are difficult people and they can also manifest themselves on public transport - indeed I think you are more at the mercy of them if you are sharing a vehicle with them !.

My use of cars has gone up and down. When I first lived in Croydon I went without a car. Looking back it made things difficult. My commute nowadays is not far but involves two busses. After I broke my leg I started using the car and that was almost two years ago. I would not like to rely on the bus again. They were unreliable, took over twice as long and I was at the mercy of the weather. I have a free (60+) Oyster card but that does not tip the balance.

Whether car ownership improves lives very much depends on how frequent, reliable and pleasant to use your local public transport system is, and if it fits in with your own personal travel needs. When I moved back here nearly 20 years ago, I had a half-hourly bus service during the day and an hourly service in the evenings up until 11pm. I had no need for a car when my travel needs only required one return bus journey. The moment I started working further afield it became two bus journeys, and on the occasions when I had an 8pm finish it really was quite stressful trying to get rid of your last customer (call-centre environment) in order that I could make the last bus that connected with my local bus. Despite my employer promoting car-sharing, it wasn't always the case that there would be a lift available (even to catch my second bus), and on a few occasions I was left with a £20+ taxi bill just to get home.

I bought a second-hand Micra for £350 and despite it requiring a new clutch fairly early on, the day-to-day running costs were far less than what I'd been spending on two point-to-point unlimited travel tickets on the bus. My journey home only took me 20 minutes as opposed to 20+20 (and the hour+ waiting time inbetween) which meant I could get home, have tea and get changed before getting to my local for a couple of beers. It was an immense improvement to my life at the time. Not having to leave home for work 2 hours before I was due to start was by far the biggest benefit.

My current car cost me £350 in about 2012. I have to pay £240 residents parking permit and also road tax. I used to avoid using the car where I could. I now see using it as justifying the fixed costs imposed on me regardless of whether I use it or not.

 

[AlbertBeale]

AlbertBeale said:
The fact that London work journeys aren't all by means other than private cars doesn't mean that most of them couldn't be. Every car journey, even where it is helpful to the driver, is worsening life for the rest of us.

Have you never, ever benefitted from car travel in any form? Never had a lift? Never taken a taxi? Never taken a train or bus, the driver or guard of which had to use a car to get to the depot in order to be able to drive it for you because they started early enough that there wasn't a service?

Occasionally I benefit from the use of a car (either in the sense of my driving one, or someone else's use of one); but pretty much every day I suffer from other people's use of cars. The balance is overwhelmingly one way, which is not to say that they would never be used in an ideal world, but their use (and indeed ownership) would be very rare. NB: I don't count taxis as equivalent to cars in this respect - a certain (probably small) level of taxi use would in my reckoning be counted as part of the necessary public transport system.