Church Fenton - loss of service to Leeds

[billio]

Northern have decided to stop the service of trains from Church Fenton to Leeds. Passengers are advised to travel via York, an extra 20 miles with an increase in fare of about £10, or to travel to other stations such as South Milford, Micklefield or Garforth. There is not an effective bus service to another station and what there is may well be chopped when economies are made by North Yorkshire council. The only train to York in the morning is at 7-15, the next being 10-45.
Northern have no plans to re-introduce this service. Is cancelling such services the future of our railways ?

 

[Peter A]

Northern have decided to stop the service of trains from Church Fenton to Leeds. Passengers are advised to travel via York, an extra 20 miles with an increase in fare of about £10, or to travel to other stations such as South Milford, Micklefield or Garforth. There is not an effective bus service to another station and what there is may well be chopped when economies are made by North Yorkshire council. The only train to York in the morning is at 7-15, the next being 10-45.
Northern have no plans to re-introduce this service. Is cancelling such services the future of our railways ?

I thought this was only a temporary measure due to COVID-19? The York to Blackpool North service is currently only running between Leeds and Hebden Bridge with a two hourly extension to Preston. I can't see the York to Blackpool North service being withdrawn completely, so presumably normal service will be restored at Church Fenton when temporary COVID-19 timetables come to an end (currently scheduled for September)!

If it is to be chopped indefinitely, which seems highly unlikely, then I guess the York to Leeds shuttle would call there instead. But I'd hazard a guess that they couldn't just slot the stop at Church Fenton into the current timetable, maybe due to pathing constraints etc, and it would have to be addressed at the December timetable change.

 

[30907]

Can you provide a link to your source of information, as Google and the Northern website are silent? Or are you referring to the temporary timetable currently in operation?
(Northern will sell me a ticket on a direct train in September!)

 

[Halish Railway]

This is probably a COVID-19 temporary measure as all of the York to Blackpool North trains which serve Church Fenton have stopped running (apart from the oddball 21:57 Leeds to Blackpool North service).

 

[Adam0984]

Its the covid timetable with the withdrawal of the express services with the ex Preston terminating at Leeds.

 

[Starmill]

Why doesn't the stopping service simply make additional calls at Church Fenton?

 

[Halish Railway]

Why doesn't the stopping service simply make additional calls at Church Fenton?

Pathing issues - The York to Leeds stopping train goes just a few minutes after an express train and coming from Leeds the Liverpool to Scarborough service will catch it up ordinarily (it already does catch it up at Micklefield).

 

[Adam0984]

And going to York you have the ex Hull at nearly the same time

 

[David Goddard]

That's a poor show for Church Fenton, leaving it with just the York to Hull service. I would expect there is a reasonable amount of business from there towards Leeds
With other services reduced in frequency, isn't their time for the York to Leeds stopper to make an extra call (the regular timetable can not fit it in without starting five minutes earlier and being looped at CHF)

 

[Starmill]

Pathing issues - The Leeds stopping train goes just a few minutes after an express train and coming from Leeds the Liverpool to Scarborough service will catch it up ordinarily (it already does catch it up at Micklefield).

Are all of those even running? If they are all running and the stopper can't be shifted around the hour, the TPE train should stop at Church Fenton instead. Pretty pathetic excuse if it's just that...

That's a poor show for Church Fenton, leaving it with just the York to Hull service. I would expect there is a reasonable amount of business from there towards Leeds

With other services reduced in frequency, isn't their time for the York to Leeds stopper to make an extra call (the regular timetable can not fit it in without starting five minutes earlier and being looped at CHF)

It leaves sone extremely long gaps between York and Church Fenton.

 

[Adam0984]

Seems to be something that has been ignored. I'm sure they could have slipped in the stop either by leaving York early then normal times from there to Leeds or a couple of mins later from Church Fenton
Edit, it would have to leave York earlier as the Man Air is right behind it arriving into Leeds.
Going to York looks fine apart from you have 2 trains to York at the same time

 

[Starmill]

Has the company at the very minimum published an easement to allow passengers from Church Fenton to travel to Micklefield and beyond via York or via Selby at no extra cost?

 

[Halish Railway]

Are all of those even running? If they are all running and the stopper can't be shifted around the hour, the TPE train should stop at Church Fenton instead. Pretty pathetic excuse if it's just that...

Yes - Restored to the full hourly service.

 

[Starmill]

Not the best. Perhaps that shouldn't have been allowed if doing so deprives intermediate stations of all services.

The industry really desperately needs to grapple with these sorts of new challenges. The old timetables are almost meaningless now.

If all options have been tried and exhausted, and absolutely nothing is practical, a replacement bus should be ordered.

 

[Halish Railway]

Seems to be something that has been ignored. I'm sure they could have slipped in the stop either by leaving York early then normal times from there to Leeds or a couple of mins later from Church Fenton
Edit, it would have to leave York earlier as the Man Air is right behind it arriving into Leeds.
Going to York looks fine apart from you have 2 trains to York at the same time

At the moment, the Leeds stopping train could leave York about three minutes earlier, however, this service runs on the back of an express train (Newcastle to Manchester Airport which isn’t running at the moment). This means that the Church Fenton stop would have to be axed when this service is reintroduced, hopefully at the same time as the York to Blackpool North service which normally calls at Church Fenton.

 

[Starmill]

Yes - Restored to the full hourly service.

Wait a minute, this is actually not true at all. Only five services are running daily Leeds to Scarborough next week.

 

[Halish Railway]

Wait a minute, this is actually not true at all. Only five services are running daily Leeds to Scarborough next week.

I was referring to the stopping train.

Bare in mind that normally the Scarborough service runs on the back of the stopping train as since the Dec 2019 timetable change its timetable was amended to stop at Stalybridge, therefore meaning that it missed its pre-Dec 2019 path in which it left at xx:22 with the stopping train leaving at xx:25. Now the stopping train leaves at xx:18 and the Scarborough service leaves at xx:27.

The only way in which the Scarborough service could go in front of the stopping service and call at Church Fenton would be to omit Stalybridge and cut the dwell time at Leeds from 6 to 3 minutes.

 

[billio]

Check the Church Fenton departure board. At the moment you catch the 5-58 to Hull and change at Selby for Leeds: 1hr 6 minutes.

 

[Starmill]

I was referring to the stopping train.

I was clearly specifically asking about the express trains which you claimed created a conflict. So it is in fact mostly an entirely theoretical confict.

I'm not going to be traveling by rail from Church Fenton any time soon so I have no personal interest in the industry getting this right - but it's clear that they need to be able to balance the timetable much, much more effectively than they have managed to do so far if the railway is going to survive. If you lived in Church Fenton you'd be utterly alienated by the industry and unlikely to ever return. The old timetables are almost meaningless, they need to be working together to produce a stable baseline that will give everywhere a reasonable service, even if it doesn't allow all long-distance trains to run or everything to run at previous frequency.

 

[yorkie]

Pathing issues - The Leeds stopping train goes just a few minutes after an express train and coming from Leeds the Liverpool to Scarborough service will catch it up ordinarily (it already does catch it up at Micklefield).

That's not true; today there's 10 minutes between the respective arrivals from Leeds into York and 19 minutes between the respective departures from York towards Leeds.

Adding a call at Church Fenton would not add any more than 5 minutes at the most.

Today there are 4 trains per hour (1 XC, 1 Northern, 2 TPE); on a normal Saturday there would be 7 trains per hour (1 XC, 2 Northern, 4 TPE).

Clearly, there is sufficient capacity to serve all intermediate stations.

At the moment, the Leeds stopping train could leave York about three minutes earlier, however, this service runs on the back of an express train (Newcastle to Manchester Airport which isn’t running at the moment). ....

OK so let me get this straight: there are fewer trains operating between York and Leeds, one of those trains would normally call at Church Fenton. People are calling for the Church Fenton call to be reinstated. You are rejecting this on the basis that, if more express trains were running, there would not be sufficient capacity for an additional call at Church Fenton on the remaining stopping service.

I don't understand your logic; if all trains were running there would not be a problem. As there are huge gaps in the service at the current time, there clearly is spare capacity for all intermediate stations to be served during the current period.

Northern have decided to stop the service of trains from Church Fenton to Leeds. Passengers are advised to travel via York, an extra 20 miles with an increase in fare of about £10,...

Do you have documented evidence of Northern stating passengers are required to pay an additional £10? If so, you should consider writing to the ORR, DfT, Transport Focus and MP about this matter.

My understanding is that ticket acceptance should be in place.

 

[Halish Railway]

That's not true; today there's 10 minutes between the respective arrivals from Leeds into York and 19 minutes between the respective departures from York towards Leeds.

Adding a call at Church Fenton would not add any more than 5 minutes at the most.

OK so let me get this straight: there are fewer trains operating between York and Leeds, one of those trains call at Church Fenton. People are calling for the Church Fenton call to be reinstated. You are rejecting this on the basis that, if more express trains were running, there would not be sufficient capacity for an additional call at Church Fenton.

I don't understand your logic.

If all trains were running there would not be a problem. As there are huge gaps in the service at the current time, there clearly is spare capacity for all intermediate stations to be served during the current period.

Ah, forgive me - I was probably getting confused with the normal timetable in which the stopping train leaves at xx:08, just three minutes after the Edinburgh to Liverpool service at xx:05, however, at the moment there is no train leaving at xx:05, instead the current Newcastle to Liverpool service leaves at the same time that the Newcastle to Manchester Airport service leaves (xx:51).

 

[yorksrob]

they need to be working together to produce a stable baseline that will give everywhere a reasonable service, even if it doesn't allow all long-distance trains to run or everything to run at previous frequency.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with this.

 

[billio]

...
Do you have documented evidence of Northern stating passengers are required to pay an additional £10? If so, you should consider writing to the ORR, DfT, Transport Focus and MP about this matter.

Not personally, this price increase is being reported by people living in Church Fenton. I just thought I would raise this issue on RailUKforum. At the moment for a Church Fenton to Leeds journey the Northern website states 'No tickets are available please refine your search'.

 

[yorkie]

Not personally, this price increase is being reported by people living in Church Fenton. I just thought I would raise this issue on RailUKforum. At the moment for a Church Fenton to Leeds journey the Northern website states 'No tickets are available please refine your search'.

Yes, as Northern have not introduced an easement, you cannot buy a ticket online.

However if you buy a ticket from the TVM (if it accepts your chosen payment method and if it will sell a ticket without an itinerary; not all TVMs will do this) or, failing that, board the train, my understanding is that you should be allowed to travel via York. If unable to buy the ticket at Church Fenton, you could buy it at York if you have sufficient time between trains, failing that, buy the ticket from the excess fares window at Leeds.

My understanding is that ticket acceptance is in place by agreement but there are no electronic easements, which is of course a very poor state of affairs, but you can travel.

https://twitter.com/TPEassist/status/1264853422513291264

Hi folks, ticket acceptance with Northern is in place until further notice. ^JL

 

[billio]

...
useful info
...

https://twitter.com/TPEassist/status/1264853422513291264

Thanks for you help