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Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

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Cardiff123

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Until the rule mandating face masks/coverings on public transport comes into force in Wales on Monday 27th July, TfW Rail have no choice but to not encourge people to use their services, as without people wearing masks/coverings on board, everyone must stay two metres apart. As we've seen, this means seating capacity is drastically reduced and no one is allowed to stand.
Once the face masks/covering rule comes in, the 2m distance rule on public transport in Wales will be allowed to be relaxed, so on board capacity will be increased. So I expect we'll see a change in messaging from TfW from 27th July.
 
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yorkie

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But how about travelling to/from English stations? If I'm travelling between Newton-le-Willows and Manchester do I have to wait for a Northern service when you're running 2 tph on the same route? I don't mean to be flippant but, if so, that will be very confusing for passengers.
The correct answer is that the customer does NOT have to wait for a Northern service.

TfW's actual answer was:
I understand your comments and as soon as we have more clarification we will aim to update customers. ^Ned

I would say it's unbelievable, but knowing how TfW operate, I can believe it.

I am not sure what words I can use to describe what I think of TfW but I will leave it to the imagination
 

Dai Corner

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Until the rule mandating face masks/coverings on public transport comes into force in Wales on Monday 27th July, TfW Rail have no choice but to not encourge people to use their services, as without people wearing masks/coverings on board, everyone must stay two metres apart. As we've seen, this means seating capacity is drastically reduced and no one is allowed to stand.
Once the face masks/covering rule comes in, the 2m distance rule on public transport in Wales will be allowed to be relaxed, so on board capacity will be increased. So I expect we'll see a change in messaging from TfW from 27th July.

Newport Transport (wholly owned by the City Council, incidentally) don't require face coverings and allow up to 50% loadings.
 

Cardiff123

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The correct answer is that the customer does NOT have to wait for a Northern service.

TfW's actual answer was:


I would say it's unbelievable, but knowing how TfW operate, I can believe it.

I am not sure what words I can use to describe what I think of TfW but I will leave it to the imagination
You can't blame the employees answering queries on twitter. They've just got a script & guidelines they have to stick to so are putting out variations of this script in reply to every tweet. The people making the guidelines and writing the scripts for them are currently enjoying their weekend.

But I agree English Covid travel rules should apply to TfW services in England and I should imagine this will be clarified next week.
 

Cardiff123

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I am not blaming the employees; I am blaming TfW.
And in turn it's not TfW's fault either, they are just following the instructions being given to them by Welsh Govt. It's worth noting that Scotrail are following the same rules as TfW, advertising on their website that trains are only for "absolutely necessary journeys and key workers" and so they are following instructions from the Scottish Govt
 

yorkie

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And in turn it's not TfW's fault either, they are just following the instructions being given to them by Welsh Govt. It's worth noting that Scotrail are following the same rules as TfW, advertising on their website that trains are only for "absolutely necessary journeys and key workers" and so they are following instructions from the Scottish Govt
Do we have any evidence that the Welsh Government have told TfW to tell people making journeys within England that they should only travel if "essential"?

If so, this could be a major news story; I'd like to hear more about that, so I can pass the information on to some relevant people.

That said, the same excuse was used for Northern but that was proven to be untrue, so until I see evidence of this, I am keeping an open mind.
 

Cardiff123

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Do we have any evidence that the Welsh Government have told TfW to tell people making journeys within England that they should only travel if "essential"?
No, there is no evidence of this. I suspect what has happened is that Westminster did not tell the Welsh Govt that they would be dropping the 'avoid public transport' message in England, and so Welsh Govt found out about this at the same time as the general public on Friday morning. The First Minister of Wales has admitted he hasn't spoken to Boris Johnson personally since 28th May. Communication between Westminster and the Welsh Govt has broken down.

Therefore, Welsh Govt didn't had time to issue new official guidance to TfW regarding their English services before the weekend, which is why TfW twitter are saying that an updated position on their services in England is coming over the next week.
 

Markdvdman

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Well a Barry Island train a 2 carriage 150 is on platform 8 at Cardiff Central and it is RAMMED! They know about the weather and they do that! Social distancing no chance on that!
 

Llandudno

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I thought non essential train journeys were banned in Wales!

I have still not risked making one!
 

yorkie

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I thought non essential train journeys were banned in Wales!

I have still not risked making one!
There is no restriction on freedom of movement in Wales.

However TfW is advising people they should only be using their services (regardless of whether the journey is in England or Wales) for non "essential" purposes.
 

trainophile

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I bet the hoteliers and B&Bs along the coast are not very happy. Several times recently I have thought I might book a mini break in Llandudno, then realised nope I can't do that.
 

yorkie

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I bet the hoteliers and B&Bs along the coast are not very happy. Several times recently I have thought I might book a mini break in Llandudno, then realised nope I can't do that.
You can do that; it's just that TfW don't want you to.
 

trainophile

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Yeah, but the definite dis-welcome on board takes away most of the incentive to give TfW any money. Other coastal resorts are available! I may even give Blackpool another try.
 

Cardiff123

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You can do that; it's just that TfW don't want you to.
Because TfW don't have the capacity to handle allowing everyone back on board and adhere to the 2m physical distancing rule in Wales.

Of course this is different to England where it's now pretty much a free for all with virtually no Covid preventing rules left in place, and the higher incidence of Covid in England compared to Wales and Scotland reflects this.
 

Richard Scott

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Because TfW don't have the capacity to handle allowing everyone back on board and adhere to the 2m physical distancing rule in Wales.

Of course this is different to England where it's now pretty much a free for all with virtually no Covid preventing rules left in place, and the higher incidence of Covid in England compared to Wales and Scotland reflects this.
Here we go again comparing a country with 60 million to those with 3-5 million. Not comparable. A few people on trains isn't going to make a massive difference. If we're going to discuss spurious figures remember Scotland has had a spike (up to a whopping 21 new infections yesterday) so it's R value must be through the roof. This is tongue in cheek by the way. Remember some Cardiff Barry trains have been loaded to max so by your logic Wales should be due a spike anytime soon.
 

Cardiff123

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Let's not turn this into another political arguments thread and risk it getting shut down like the other one. I'm just pointing out that the 2m physical distancing rule is still in place in Wales so naturally TfW don't want to promote travel on their services when they can't accommodate everyone safely according to the rules that they've been given to follow.
And regards to England, even though in Wales we also get all of the English news (but English people do not get the Welsh news) I couldn't tell you what the Covid rules are there anymore, where as it still pretty clear to me what the rules are in Wales.
 

duncanp

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Do we have any evidence that the Welsh Government have told TfW to tell people making journeys within England that they should only travel if "essential"?

The notices at Church Stretton yesterday afternoon saying that services are for "key workers and essential journeys only" is certainly meant to discourage people from travelling.

Similarly the announcement on the TfW train from Shrewsbury to Birmingham saying "welcome to all the key workers travelling with us today" carries the implicit assumption that people who are not "key workers" are not welcome.

If you look at https://tfwrail.wales/covid-19, the relevant phrase is

Current Welsh Government guidance is to Keep Wales Safe and travel only if your journey’s essential.

There is nothing on their website about the UK government advice for journeys in England.

So it would appear that TfW are following Welsh government advice, at making no reference to the different advice given by the UK government, even though many journeys on TfW are entirely within England, to places such and Birmingham and Manchester.
 

pdq

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My mother lives in Tenby and was widowed in February (so we were able to have a proper funeral, thankfully). She would dearly love to visit us in Yorkshire to see her grandchildren. Obviously, in England, we're largely unaware of the specifics of the rules in Wales. So am I right to infer that she is not permitted to travel by train at all for this purpose, and might be banned from doing so? Is there any hint that the restrictions are going to be altered by this time next month, which is when she would be travelling?
Is National Express being treated any differently? I can't see any mention on their website about travel for leisure not being permitted.
I'm looking at options where I drive so far to meet her - I wouldn't want to drive 300 miles to Tenby, then back again, then repeat the next week; but going as far as Chepstow (NatEx) or Newport wouldn't be as bad as it's doable in a day.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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My mother lives in Tenby and was widowed in February (so we were able to have a proper funeral, thankfully). She would dearly love to visit us in Yorkshire to see her grandchildren. Obviously, in England, we're largely unaware of the specifics of the rules in Wales. So am I right to infer that she is not permitted to travel by train at all for this purpose, and might be banned from doing so? Is there any hint that the restrictions are going to be altered by this time next month, which is when she would be travelling?
Is National Express being treated any differently? I can't see any mention on their website about travel for leisure not being permitted.
I'm looking at options where I drive so far to meet her - I wouldn't want to drive 300 miles to Tenby, then back again, then repeat the next week; but going as far as Chepstow (NatEx) or Newport wouldn't be as bad as it's doable in a day.
Despite TfW's bluff and bluster, all travel is now permissible in or through Wales, regardless of the reason for your journey.

No-one will be stopping her travelling and indeed now will be a quieter time than almost ever to get to Yorkshire. Book away and ignore TfW's twaddle.
 

duncanp

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I think that it is very sad that your mother feels that she can't make this journey.

Have a look at

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-regulations-guidance#section-39239 and see the bit I have highlighted in red


What is an extended household?
Two households will be able to join together to form an extended household. This means all the people living in these two separate households will become part of one extended household for the purposes of the coronavirus restrictions.

They will enjoy the same legal freedoms people living in individual households currently have – such as being able to meet indoors, have physical contact and stay in each other’s homes.

What is the purpose of having an extended household?
The idea is to allow families or close friends who have been separated over these last few months to reconnect with each other and enjoy each other’s close company once again.

These extended household arrangements also support caring arrangements. In particular, they may help working parents with informal childcare over the summer months, as more businesses reopen their doors and return to formalised working arrangements and they may help people with other caring responsibilities.

There is another paragraph about going into an extended household with someone in England

Can I go into an extended household with a household in England?
Yes, but the arrangements will need to comply with the rules in both countries. The rules that apply in England are available here.

So as far as I can see there is nothing to stop your mother forming an extended household with you, and the fact that someone living in Wales is allowed to form an extended household with someone in England implies that they are allowed to travel from Wales to England for that purpose.

It is a long journey from Tenby, but looking at the timetable you can get to Manchester with one change at Camarthen.

From Manchester there are services to various destinations in Yorkshire, or perhaps it would be feasible for you to drive to Manchester and collect her.

Your mother could also arrange for assistance with her journey if necessary.
 

pdq

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Thanks for the replies - having read up-thread about BTP involvement and the like, it didn't sound like the train would be a welcoming place. She is still fit and well, so no problem needing assistance. She's done the journey via Carmarthen and Manchester a number of times so is used to it, and I'd certainly meet her at Piccadilly, whether by train or car. The total journey length with having to wear a facemask wouldn't appeal to me, but who knows where things will be in a month.
 

Cardiff123

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I expect the messaging on public transport in Wales to be eased on Monday 27th July when face masks/coverings become compulsory on buses and trains in Wales, so the 2m distance rule will be eased.
 

anthony263

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I've seen quite a few people using our buses for leasure travel today in pontypridd certainly its a big difference to when I first started back in March
 

duncanp

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Thanks for the replies - having read up-thread about BTP involvement and the like, it didn't sound like the train would be a welcoming place. She is still fit and well, so no problem needing assistance. She's done the journey via Carmarthen and Manchester a number of times so is used to it, and I'd certainly meet her at Piccadilly, whether by train or car. The total journey length with having to wear a facemask wouldn't appeal to me, but who knows where things will be in a month.

If you don't want to drive into the centre of Manchester, you might find it easier to pick your mother up at Crewe, Wilmslow or Stockport, as the train from Carmarthen stops there.
 

Dai Corner

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It seems bus operators are meeting the Welsh Government tomorrow and we can expect an announcement on Wednesday.


NAT Group said:
Following the announcement about face coverings to be compulsory on public transport in Wales from the 27th of July, operators have been asked to attend a discussion with the Welsh Government about this on Tuesday so we will be confirming our guidance on this Wednesday morning.
 

PHILIPE

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Extract from TFW Journey Check
Alterations to services at Barry Island


Due to a short-notice change to the timetable at Barry Island:
Impact
Train services running to and from this station may be revised. Disruption is expected until 22:00 20/07.
Customer Advice
Covid-19 Social Distancing laws apply. Train services remain running as a priority for key and essential workers.
Your travel status will be subject to live and ongoing review, with checks by British Transport Police, TfW Rail Revenue inspectors and Security staff. Under conditions of over-capacity at stations and on trains, you may be denied travel until capacity drops.
The type of ticket available will be limited to singles-only for all non-essential journeys, where capacity is breached and a risk to the health of essential workers and rail staff is clear and present.
Additional Information
Please note that:
Train services heading for Barry/Barry Island are reported as being over capacity from Cardiff Queen Street and Cardiff Central
Capacity to and from Barry Island is limited and will be strictly enforced.
Should overcrowding occur, trains may be delayed whilst capacity limits are restored or cancelled if delays become prohibitive
Evening and late night trains returning from Barry Island will be subject to strict capacity limits. Road transport is not provided
Further Information
Travel Safer Policy
For essential journeys only
2 metre social distancing
Greatly reduced capacity (reduced to 16%-24% of normal)
Temporary closure of some stations, where 2m distancing cannot be maintained
Public Transport Face Coverings
Mandatory in Wales from 27 July
Mandatory in England from 15 June
Exemptions apply
You will be required to provide your own face covering and understand how & where to use it correctly
Trafnidiaeth Cymru/Transport for Wales
If you have experienced a delay or cancellation, please contact our customer relations team or pick up a form from your nearest ticket office. You can email us using: [email protected]
Last Updated:20/07/2020 12:03
 

Richard Scott

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Interested in the but that says 'you may be denied travel until capacity drops'. My understanding of capacity is it's provided by the train so if capacity drops then there must be fewer trains. Think that needs rewording?
 

yorkie

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I think they are on dodgy ground; I've already heard a report of a disabled person, who is totally reliant on public transport, being denied travel to see a friend. I believe this is likely to be a breach of the law on equality grounds.

Is 2m social distancing actually the law in Wales?

It also makes absolutely no sense to mandate both masks and 2m social distancing; this is not done anywhere else. I saw David Horne tweeted an image of a TGV with every seat taken the other day.

This madness has to stop.
 
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