Was the Pendolino worth it?

[Domh245]

Granted, but it's a lot easier to advertise taking the train to people who'd have otherwise not considered it when it looks halfway decent.

Adverts like this wouldn't have the same impact if it were an IC3 or Fyra for example!

 

[hexagon789]

Though it looks ugly as sin, the body shape of the power car doesn't even match the coaches.

Probably the US crash regs meant they had to make alterations?

 

[Huntergreed]

From a 'passenger experience' point of view, I would likely give them a 7 out of 10.

390 First Class service and the ambience in First Class Coaches is fantastic, exactly what you need for an intercity train.

Standard class is sadly considerably less pleasant, the ambience feels darker, more crammed, and it even smells worse! (No idea how, but first class smells fine!)

The shop is pretty good admittedly, but the standard class coaches could do with a refurb, there's simply not enough natural light coming in, so the coaches feel pretty cramped and unpleasant, especially when it's dull outside with not much sunlight.

 

[irish_rail]

East Midlands has been mentioned before, Great Western could take the units to help with the bends in Cornwall and Devon.

No thanks

 

[Purple Orange]

From a 'passenger experience' point of view, I would likely give them a 7 out of 10.

390 First Class service and the ambience in First Class Coaches is fantastic, exactly what you need for an intercity train.

Standard class is sadly considerably less pleasant, the ambience feels darker, more crammed, and it even smells worse! (No idea how, but first class smells fine!)

The shop is pretty good admittedly, but the standard class coaches could do with a refurb, there's simply not enough natural light coming in, so the coaches feel pretty cramped and unpleasant, especially when it's dull outside with not much sunlight.

When the Pendolinos and Voyagers were introduced, I remember thinking standard class was a vast improvement on what went before. I hated travelling on a Virgin XC HST and equally so on the old WCML Mk3 trains.

 

[route101]

When the Pendolinos and Voyagers were introduced, I remember thinking standard class was a vast improvement on what went before. I hated travelling on a Virgin XC HST and equally so on the old WCML Mk3 trains.

Was there any difference between XC mk3/mk2 and the WCML stock?

Was on a pendo last week, could do with a refurb , yes a bit dark and dingy.

 

[route101]

When the Pendolinos and Voyagers were introduced, I remember thinking standard class was a vast improvement on what went before. I hated travelling on a Virgin XC HST and equally so on the old WCML Mk3 trains.

Was there any difference between XC mk3/mk2 and the WCML stock?

Was on a pendo last week, could do with a refurb , yes a bit dark and dingy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was there any difference between XC mk3/mk2 and the WCML stock?

They all used IC70 seating and the same layouts but the seat covers were different - dark green on XC, alternating light blue and green on WC. My view would be that the WC Mk3 refurbs were slightly better, but the XC ones better on the Mk2s as they replaced more of the scruffy bits (e.g. re-powder coated the window surrounds) than the WC ones. At least one WC Mk2 set got emergency opening windows, no XC ones did.

A Pendolino beats either, because the IC70 seat is the worst railway seat I have ever experienced in UK rolling stock.

 

[nlogax]

Was on a pendo last week, could do with a refurb , yes a bit dark and dingy.

Coming soon-ish, I believe..?

 

[Huntergreed]

Coming soon-ish, I believe..?

Yes, the first set was due out in December, does anyone know if this will still be the case or if Covid has delayed this?

I imagine it'll be a much more significant refurbishment than what has occured on the voyagers, and I very much like the look of what they have done there!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the first set was due out in December, does anyone know if this will still be the case or if Covid has delayed this?

I imagine it'll be a much more significant refurbishment than what has occured on the voyagers, and I very much like the look of what they have done there!

Completely new seats in Standard.

 

[43096]

They all used IC70 seating and the same layouts but the seat covers were different - dark green on XC, alternating light blue and green on WC. My view would be that the WC Mk3 refurbs were slightly better, but the XC ones better on the Mk2s as they replaced more of the scruffy bits (e.g. re-powder coated the window surrounds) than the WC ones. At least one WC Mk2 set got emergency opening windows, no XC ones did.

A Pendolino beats either, because the IC70 seat is the worst railway seat I have ever experienced in UK rolling stock.

On the flip side, the IC70 is the best standard class seat anywhere as far as I’m concerned. That is part of why Pendolino is such a massive downgrade in terms of passenger accommodation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the flip side, the IC70 is the best standard class seat anywhere as far as I’m concerned. That is part of why Pendolino is such a massive downgrade in terms of passenger accommodation.

And thus demonstrating that seating (which is probably the most important element of someone's appreciation of a train) is wholly subjective!

 

[Purple Orange]

Was there any difference between XC mk3/mk2 and the WCML stock?

Was on a pendo last week, could do with a refurb , yes a bit dark and dingy.

Not a lot of difference in my opinion, but I was just distinguishing between the two to make reference to both legacy trains. In fact, I’d have lumped all HST units from that era in together. Virgin XC, GNER, Midland Mainline and Great Western HSTs were all rubbish to travel on.

 

[43096]

And thus demonstrating that seating (which is probably the most important element of someone's appreciation of a train) is wholly subjective!

That’s something we agree on!

Perhaps we need “The Endless Seating Thread” creating on here?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the flip side, the IC70 is the best standard class seat anywhere as far as I’m concerned. That is part of why Pendolino is such a massive downgrade in terms of passenger accommodation.

You obviously never bounced your way up the WCML in an HST loaned from Old Oak Common then...
They ran Holyhead/Blackpool and some Manchester runs in the 90s, before 390s/221s came in.
The fixed armrests were just torture.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s something we agree on!

Perhaps we need “The Endless Seating Thread” creating on here?

I think there is one somewhere but I've probably got better things to do

 

[43096]

You obviously never bounced your way up the WCML in an HST loaned from Old Oak Common then...
They ran Holyhead/Blackpool and some Manchester runs in the 90s, before 390s/221s came in.
The fixed armrests were just torture.

I’m well aware of what HSTs worked where, when, thanks.

Not sure how the fixed armrests were torture once you’re in the seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure how the fixed armrests were torture once you’re in the seat.

It's down to backside width vs. the space between them. If you're skinny, they're great. If you're average, they're OK. If you're shaped like a rugby player who has indulged in a few too many after-match pints (guilty!) then they're torture because you are literally jammed in. Bonus for tall people: they force your legs forward straight into the pointy table supports.

The exact same seat without the fixed armrests (as was found on some Mk2s which didn't have the middle one - they put the IC70 cushions into the older frame) would be OK, but I so, so wish the Mk3 had had the Wessie interior, it really was the Mk3 with all the bad bits (seats, banging vestibule doors and overharsh lighting) fixed.

 

[43096]

It's down to backside width vs. the space between them. If you're skinny, they're great. If you're average, they're OK. If you're shaped like a rugby player who has indulged in a few too many after-match pints (guilty!) then they're torture because you are literally jammed in. Bonus for tall people: they force your legs forward straight into the pointy table supports.

The exact same seat without the fixed armrests (as was found on some Mk2s which didn't have the middle one - they put the IC70 cushions into the older frame) would be OK, but I so, so wish the Mk3 had had the Wessie interior, it really was the Mk3 with all the bad bits (seats, banging vestibule doors and overharsh lighting) fixed.

In which case we should bring them back nationwide as part of Boris’s anti-obesity campaign!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In which case we should bring them back nationwide as part of Boris’s anti-obesity campaign!

If I got my body fat down from 20-odd % to 5% (which is about what well-trained athletes have) I'd still not fit (I've been fairly skinny a while ago due to a medical issue, and they were still torture then). UK Standard seats are just too narrow to have thick fixed armrests like that. The Pendolino seats (hey, let's go back on topic ) are a fair whack narrower but because the armrests are narrower, higher and liftable they don't cause anything like the same problem, and so I massively prefer them.

I think roughly, while backside-width isn't a direct function of that, roughly, anyone with a (genuine, not overtightened belt with the fat hanging over the top) waist size of 34" or below will probably fit, but anyone above that won't.

 

[The Ham]

That’s something we agree on!

Perhaps we need “The Endless Seating Thread” creating on here?

I suspect that there would need to be x3 the number of admins just to deal with putting all the posts about seats from elsewhere into it!

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect that there would need to be x3 the number of admins just to deal with putting all the posts about seats from elsewhere into it!

One for the armchair enthusiasts?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not sure how the fixed armrests were torture once you’re in the seat.

The problem was being bounced off your seat repeatedly at 110mph.
I never found out if it was the stock (it was a small subset of the Western HST fleet), or the poor state of the pre-upgrade WCML track.
The equivalent loco-hauled Mk3s were much steadier.
History now, anyway.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

IIRC it was either the proposed class 93 + rake of coaches for the WCML or NSE Networkers and the Networker project won.

Offers for the leasing proposal were either class 91s and Mk IVs or Networker Express EMUs

ALSTHOM were invited to tender class 91s/Mk IVs because at the time of the IC225 tender, they argued that 91s/Mk IVs would be both better and cheaper for the WCML, but the bid they submitted for the leasing exercise didn't support this argument.

It's difficult to know how much journey time benefits tilt brought to the WCML; BR did an exercise when tilting and non-tilting trains were compared on specific routes, and the base for the comparison was basically an APT with tilt, and one without tilt. The latter obviously had a better power to weight ratio, and therefore had superior acceleration; the conclusion was that benefits on most routes would be marginal (on the ECML, a non-tilting APT was quicker between King's Cross and Edinburgh than a tilting one), and from memory there were some useful journey time benefits over the Northern Fells, but not much on Euston - Birmingham/Manchester services.

The conclusion of the BR study was that the only route which would really benefit from tilt would be the MML.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

It was 11 x 225 sets (and one transferred from the ECML) to replace the Longsight mk3s was Intercity’s plan. The Longsight mk3s were then cascaded to replace the Oxley mk2f sets with Polmadie’s mk3 sets unchanged.

It was pitched against NSE’s bid for 41 Express Networker sets, 25 for Great Northern and 16 for South Eastern. The reason behind the 25 for Great Northern was that would allow 25 Class 317s to cascade to LT&S which was enough stock to run the entire off-peak and weekend services and would allow DOO to be introduced outside the peaks bringing a huge cost staving in displacing guards (shows how “peaky” in terms of volume the route is).
to determine
BR was all about cost saving at this time and DOO was a very popular way of introducing this and being able to bring DOO to a high percentage of LT&S services was one of the factors which swayed the decision to NSE.

This is a later part of the story

Treasury rules prevented BR from leasing traction and rolling stock, but during the years of the Major government a decision was made to permit it to lease trains up to a certain capital value; a "competition" was held to identify possible uses of the funds available, and two options emerged - Networker Expresses or IC225s for the WCML.

The next part of the exercise was to determine how many of these two types of trains could be procured which had this capital value, and the answer was 41 class 365s or 11 x IC225s. ABB was prepared to work with BR to maximise the number of trains offered but agreeing a specification, procurement terms, etc, but ALSTOM wasn't; it's impossible to say if this disadvantaged the offer submitted for the WCML in any way.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

As the design and production would have gone out to competitive tender, it's hard to visualise what the outcome would have been.
GEC-Alsthom (with Fiat) might well have come up with a Pendolino-like train, or maybe more TGV-like (a UK version was then in production for Eurostar).
Derby was by then in the hands of ABB, which was building X2000s in Sweden.

Tender drawings submitted by bidders were for trains looking very much like the image shown; moreover, they would have been partially built at Wakefield, and have had Siemens electrics if the project had gone ahead.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Tender drawings submitted by bidders were for trains looking very much like the image shown; moreover, they would have been partially built at Wakefield, and have had Siemens electrics if the project had gone ahead.

Are there any of those drawings online?

 

[grumpyoldman01]

They all used IC70 seating and the same layouts but the seat covers were different - dark green on XC, alternating light blue and green on WC. My view would be that the WC Mk3 refurbs were slightly better, but the XC ones better on the Mk2s as they replaced more of the scruffy bits (e.g. re-powder coated the window surrounds) than the WC ones. At least one WC Mk2 set got emergency opening windows, no XC ones did.

A Pendolino beats either, because the IC70 seat is the worst railway seat I have ever experienced in UK rolling stock.

Weren't some of the WC Mk IIIs Bs with IC APT seats?

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Are there any of those drawings online?

Not that I'm aware of