UK face coverings discussion

[Grecian 1998]

I really can't see any likelihood of face coverings being mandated outdoors:

The police have said they aren't going to attend shops unless matters turn violent. The police are not going to trawl the great outdoors looking for people not wearing masks, who can simply state they are exempt. There is no requirement to carry ID in the UK so there won't be a requirement to carry an exemption letter. Police numbers have been cut over the last few years and there are still actual crimes being committed which might be considered a greater priority than someone's naked lips being visible at a zebra crossing.

If the police aren't going to enforce it, who would? Local government? Where's the money going to come from and what services have to be cut? The general public? That's a one way ticket to vigilante-ism going badly wrong.

Also the government seem to have realised combating obesity is quite important. Forcing people to wear something which makes outdoor exercise uncomfortable and nullifies a key factor in persuading people to walk rather than use the bus would be a strange decision (although TBF there have been plenty of those in recent months).

Finally, the summer has pretty much proven you can have large numbers of people in outdoor areas with little risk of spread - think of all the gleeful predictions of a second wave from keyboard warriors which have never materialised. Whilst beaches have been nowhere near as crowded as selected images would show, the Durdle Door evacuation, various protests and numerous raves don't seem to have caused any spikes.

It's possible that face coverings might be mandated in very specific areas of cities which get crowded, but even then it would need to be somewhere enforceable. To take Bristol as an example, it might be possible in Broadmead (already mandatory in Cabot's Circus as it's indoors) but I can't see it being enforceable in the Centre, Corn Street or the Harbourside. I still can't see anyone being delighted at paying for enforcement though.

As set out above though, even if it was mandated in certain areas, how is it going to be enforced? The police have better things to do and local government officers would have no power to demand more info if you stated you were exempt, nor could they physically remove you from an outdoor area.

We shall see though.

 

[MattA7]

Took the dreaded trip to asda today and although most customers were wearing masks about 30% of the staff weren’t. It infuriates me because due to Asperger’s syndrome I find wearing the mask distressing and being severely Underweight means I get breathless easy however I try to wear it is long as possible due to fears Of vigilantes.

I really don’t understand why the government didn’t have some official documents for those exempt. I’m exempt from wearing a seatbelt due to my conditions but that has the proper documentation if challenged. The face mask laws do not.

 

[Huntergreed]

Took the dreaded trip to asda today and although most customers were wearing masks about 30% of the staff weren’t. It infuriates me because due to Asperger’s syndrome I find wearing the mask distressing and being severely Underweight means I get breathless easy however I try to wear it is long as possible due to fears Of vigilantes.

I really don’t understand why the government didn’t have some official documents for those exempt. I’m exempt from wearing a seatbelt due to my conditions but that has the proper documentation if challenged. The face mask laws do not.

You're definitely exempt from mask wearing, if challenged by staff or police then just say 'I'm exempt'. If police ask why, then just explain what you have told us on here, and they'll understand. I agree it's not a good state of affairs, but please don't feel excluded from society due to this! Get out there and enjoy things now they are reopening, and don't let any self-appointed vigilantes tell you otherwise

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don’t understand why the government didn’t have some official documents for those exempt. I’m exempt from wearing a seatbelt due to my conditions but that has the proper documentation if challenged. The face mask laws do not.

Interestingly I proposed a formal means of getting an exemption letter and that was shouted down.

You could print one of these "exemption cards" though:

[Withdrawn] Face coverings: when to wear one, exemptions and what makes a good one

This page explains what face coverings are, including what makes a good one, when to wear a face covering and exemptions from wearing one.

www.gov.uk

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Face masks reduce severity of coronavirus symptoms in wearer, scientists find

Taking in fewer particles makes it easier for immune system to cope when infected, experts say

www.independent.co.uk

Face masks can prevent wearers from developing a serious case of Covid-19 by cutting the amount of virus in the body, scientists have found.

It means face coverings not only protect other people, but they also mean that if the person wearing it does become infected, their symptoms are milder, they say.


It became compulsory to wear face masks in shops in England last month, and in other public enclosed spaces at the weekend

More evidence to suggest that face masks really do work and why everyone in my opinion should wear them to halt the spread of the virus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Face masks reduce severity of coronavirus symptoms in wearer, scientists find

Taking in fewer particles makes it easier for immune system to cope when infected, experts say

www.independent.co.uk

More evidence to suggest that face masks really do work and why everyone in my opinion should wear them to halt the spread of the virus.

Could this actually be why the number of cases isn't falling but the number of hospitalisations and deaths still very much is? Namely that masks are causing the severity of cases to fall? Interesting.

If that's true, we could potentially reopen more things (but with masks), accepting a higher case rate but being comfortable that serious effects will be lower.

And for the more selfish anti-mask non-exempt Brit, perhaps if there's a benefit to themselves they'll consider wearing one too?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Could this actually be why the number of cases isn't falling but the number of hospitalisations and deaths still very much is? Interesting.

Cases in my opinion continue to increase because some people simply refuse to wear them whenever they need to thinking that this virus is all over. Very irresponsible!

 

[Richard Scott]

Could this actually be why the number of cases isn't falling but the number of hospitalisations and deaths still very much is? Interesting.

Possible but evidence from doctors treating such patients was viral load was reducing anyway long before masks were introduced so not confident this is much evidence for use of masks.

 

[DB]

Face masks reduce severity of coronavirus symptoms in wearer, scientists find

Taking in fewer particles makes it easier for immune system to cope when infected, experts say

www.independent.co.uk

More evidence to suggest that face masks really do work and why everyone in my opinion should wear them to halt the spread of the virus.

That proves nothing of the sort. It's a theoretical lab based test. It in no way proves that there is actually any appreciable risk in a shop, nor that masks in the way they are actually used make any difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cases in my opinion continue to increase because some people simply refuse to wear them whenever they need to thinking that this virus is all over. Very irresponsible!

My observation is that in the required places most people are wearing them unless they've just forgotten. There is a far higher representation of exempt people and "refuseniks" in here (which fits with the Forum's general libertarian leanings when it comes to civil liberties) than there appears to be in the general population.

 

[Richard Scott]

Cases in my opinion continue to increase because some people simply refuse to wear them whenever they need to thinking that this virus is all over. Very irresponsible!

Rubbish. Cases increasing/decreasing has next to nothing to do with mask use except those people who think it makes distancing redundant or fiddle with them constantly transferring high viral load if they touch something.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Face masks reduce severity of coronavirus symptoms in wearer, scientists find

Taking in fewer particles makes it easier for immune system to cope when infected, experts say

www.independent.co.uk

More evidence to suggest that face masks really do work and why everyone in my opinion should wear them to halt the spread of the virus.

I'm no scientist, but a cage barrier between hamsters can't really be compared to an old tea towel on a human, surely?

Also, it's lab-based so can't be compared to wearing one in a shop/bank/etc.

Cases in my opinion continue to increase because some people simply refuse to wear them whenever they need to thinking that this virus is all over. Very irresponsible!

I actually reckon cases are on the upward trend at the moment because pubs have reopened (distancing whilst drunk is difficult - see the Aberdeen cluster), and because people are less likely to distance when wearing a face covering (because masks are the societal golden bullet for COVID).

 

[westv]

Face masks reduce severity of coronavirus symptoms in wearer, scientists find

Taking in fewer particles makes it easier for immune system to cope when infected, experts say

www.independent.co.uk

More evidence to suggest that face masks really do work and why everyone in my opinion should wear them to halt the spread of the virus.

"They housed coronavirus-infected and healthy animals in adjoining cages, some of which were separated by partitions made of surgical masks."
Surgical masks. So I see less relevance to the real world.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

My observation is that in the required places most people are wearing them unless they've just forgotten. There is a far higher representation of exempt people and "refuseniks" in here (which fits with the Forum's general libertarian leanings when it comes to civil liberties) than there appears to be in the general population.

That's true but I'm entitled to my own opinion and if I'd would like to talk about my opinion (and yours too since you agree with me on that matter) of supporting the wearing of masks too.

 

[Darandio]

That's true but I'm entitled to my own opinion and if I'd would like to talk about my opinion (and yours too since you agree with me on that matter) of supporting the wearing of masks too.

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. Other people are equally entitled to disagree and challenge that opinion.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion. Other people are equally entitled to disagree and challenge that opinion.

I 100% agree with you.

 

[bramling]

Cases in my opinion continue to increase because some people simply refuse to wear them whenever they need to thinking that this virus is all over. Very irresponsible!

I admire your mind-reading skills, however as I write this (on board a train, devoid of mask) I am very aware that it’s not over, just like when I was working right through March, April and May and very aware of Covid.

 

[Domh245]

Took the dreaded trip to asda today and although most customers were wearing masks about 30% of the staff weren’t.

Sucks to hear that you had a poor experience whilst out shopping, and I do agree that the Government really ought to have made a better job of this and had some sort of official exemption card/printout etc that would have helped. As for your point I've quoted, there is no requirement for staff to wear masks when working (ditto for transport workers) - a caveat made because wearing a mask for a whole 8 hour shift (or performing safety critical duties in the case of transport workers) is made that much more difficult, something which isn't comparable for people going into stores for at most an hour or so.

Could this actually be why the number of cases isn't falling but the number of hospitalisations and deaths still very much is? Namely that masks are causing the severity of cases to fall? Interesting.

If that's true, we could potentially reopen more things (but with masks), accepting a higher case rate but being comfortable that serious effects will be lower.

And for the more selfish anti-mask non-exempt Brit, perhaps if there's a benefit to themselves they'll consider wearing one too?

Far more likely that it's a combination of more and better focused testing (picking up more asymptomatic cases) as well as managing what we couldn't do at the start of the pandemic and keeping the virus away from the vulnerable..

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Sucks to hear that you had a poor experience whilst out shopping, and I do agree that the Government really ought to have made a better job of this and had some sort of official exemption card/printout etc that would have helped. As for your point I've quoted, there is no requirement for staff to wear masks when working (ditto for transport workers) - a caveat made because wearing a mask for a whole 8 hour shift (or performing safety critical duties in the case of transport workers) is made that much more difficult, something which isn't comparable for people going into stores for at most an hour or so.

You've made a good point actually. As much as I support the mandating in masks in indoor spaces, they should have made them compulsory for staff too, and not just customers / passangers. The staff are the ones MORE vulnerable to catching the virus as they spend something like 7-8 hours inside an indoor space, not the customers / passangers, where in the case of shops, only tend to spend a maximum of something like 30-40 minutes.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

How am I belittling sexual abuse victims? All I am saying is that there are not very many of them.

Those who would experience extreme distress by wearing a mask due to sexual abuse should not wear one. That is very clear indeed.

Most people have not had an experience like that, and should therefore put the effort in to see if they can find a mask that works for them before deciding against wearing one, and not simply decide that based on scratchy, uncomfortable disposable blue/green ones.

So you’re asking that they shouldn’t look at the evidence that they ARE exempt, and instead buy multiple numbers of masks for which the evidence that they are effective is non-existent ?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

You've made a good point actually. As much as I support the mandating in masks in indoor spaces, they should have made them compulsory for staff too, and not just customers / passangers. The staff are the ones MORE vulnerable to catching the virus as they spend something like 7-8 hours inside an indoor space, not the customers / passangers, where in the case of shops, only tend to spend a maximum of something like 30-40 minutes.

I'd be interested to know how many supermarket workers caught the virus (when masks weren't mandated - i.e. at the height of the pandemic), and how many people caught the virus in supermarkets (again, at the height of the pandemic). The former should be rather easy to ascertain, but the latter realistically isn't.

 

[DB]

You've made a good point actually. As much as I support the mandating in masks in indoor spaces, they should have made them compulsory for staff too, and not just customers / passangers. The staff are the ones MORE vulnerable to catching the virus as they spend something like 7-8 hours inside an indoor space, not the customers / passangers, where in the case of shops, only tend to spend a maximum of something like 30-40 minutes.

We have a lot of railways staff on here, quite obviously, including some who are contributing to this thread. I'm sure they will be able to tell us if there have been widespread cases of railway staff getting infected.

 

[jtuk]

You've made a good point actually. As much as I support the mandating in masks in indoor spaces, they should have made them compulsory for staff too, and not just customers / passangers. The staff are the ones MORE vulnerable to catching the virus as they spend something like 7-8 hours inside an indoor space, not the customers / passangers, where in the case of shops, only tend to spend a maximum of something like 30-40 minutes.

The point of the masks isn't to stop you catching it

 

[SouthEastBuses]

We have a lot of railways staff on here, quite obviously, including some who are contributing to this thread. I'm sure they will be able to tell us if there have been widespread cases of railway staff getting infected.

True. But if you want to make masks compulsory, make them for staff too, and not just for passangers / customers! Exactly like they've done in Italy, where onboard the bus, BOTH the passengers AND the bus driver MUST wear a face mask.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The point of the masks isn't to stop you catching it

Are you sure about that? The point of masks is both to stop you from getting the virus, and to prevent you passing it on to others.

 

[DB]

True. But if you want to make masks compulsory, make them for staff too, and not just for passangers / customers! Exactly like they've done in Italy, where onboard the bus, BOTH the passengers AND the bus driver MUST wear a face mask.

Just because other countries have done it doesn't mean it actually makes any difference - and to be honest forcing bus drivers to wear masks sounds dangerous.

Haven't parts of Italy also mandated gloves? Which are even more pointless than masks as if they get contaminated with anything it's not as easy as just washing hands or using sanitiser.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. But if you want to make masks compulsory, make them for staff too, and not just for passangers / customers! Exactly like they've done in Italy, where onboard the bus, BOTH the passengers AND the bus driver MUST wear a face mask.

The driver is behind a perspex screen which provides more protection than a mask.

I do however believe that staff who enter the passenger compartment of a public transport vehicles should wear one while they are there unless they fit one of the Government's exemptions.

 

[Jayden99]

I can't find a link that isn't the Sun or Mail and they aren't getting my clicks, but there was an anti-masker incursion into a Morrisons in South London today, telling people to take their masks off because they're "BAD!". Wouldn't surprise me if they take every opportunity to spout about their right to choose what happens to their body while completely ignoring that quite a lot of people are choosing to wear them. The vigilantism goes both ways it seems :P

 

[jtuk]

Are you sure about that? The point of masks is both to stop you from getting the virus, and to prevent you passing it on to others.

Nobody has ever said the former, and there's at best dubious evidence for the latter.

 

[DB]

Are you sure about that? The point of masks is both to stop you from getting the virus, and to prevent you passing it on to others.

According to our wonderful leaders it's to stop people spreading it, not prevent them from catching it. This, they claim, has 'growing evidence' to support it - evidence which strangely they don't seem to have referred to specifically anywhere...