Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[Swanny200]

Where was the footage of the partially flooded / debris-covered section of double-track (released yesterday by Network Rail?) taken, and when?

According to others here, over a mile away from the accident.

 

[tiptoptaff]

So we know that the Driver and Guard have passed, regarding the situation that they were under, they would have been getting ready to detrain at Stonehaven, the guard would not have been checking tickets etc... what would they be doing in that situation, would they have just been communicating to the 6 or so passengers the situation or would he have been employed by the driver to act as a second set of eyes in the cab with a worsening situation of potential landslips, or would that not be allowed under any circumstances?

It's allowed but would have to be specifically authorised. If the driver thought there was no need for it (had previously passed through the area on the other line, weather had improved, better light etc) then the guard would probably have stayed in the train - I'd suggest that in 99.9% of the time in these circumstaces, the guard would have remained in the train. They were likely in their office in the TGS, which appears to have been the leading passenger vehicle, right behind the leading PC. If the set had been in the opposite formation, or indeed travelling in the other direction, it's likely the guard would have been in the rear coach and therefore survived.

 

[shakey1961]

I can't get my head around the way everything has come to rest. I've not read in detail the rest of the thread, but I'm inclined to believe part of the train has been slightly airborne for all the carriages to be in such awkward positions.

 

[DB]

It's allowed but would have to be specifically authorised. If the driver thought there was no need for it (had previously passed through the area on the other line, weather had improved, better light etc) then the guard would probably have stayed in the train - I'd suggest that in 99.9% of the time in these circumstaces, the guard would have remained in the train. They were likely in their office in the TGS, which appears to have been the leading passenger vehicle, right behind the leading PC. If the set had been in the opposite formation, or indeed travelling in the other direction, it's likely the guard would have been in the rear coach and therefore survived.

There is no TGS in the Scotrail sets - I understand that the guard's office is by the buffet (which was the last Mk3 given the direction of travel)

 

[O L Leigh]

The speculation contained within this thread does not dignify the severity of this incident. As of right now there are 429 people viewing this thread, of whom 236 are guests. Consequently we do not know who may be reading this discussion nor what conclusions may be being drawn from it.

While it’s not unreasonable that we have questions and possible theories, wouldn’t it be better to keep these to ourselves and wait for the proper authorities who will have access to the crash site, OTMR, voice tapes and all the pertinent factual information to carry out their investigations? The RAIB will tell us all in due course.

 

[35B]

There is no TGS in the Scotrail sets - I understand that the guard's office is by the buffet (which was the last Mk3 given the direction of travel)

I think, travelling back north, it was the first vehicle - which would also explain why it's fire damaged and near the destroyed power car.

 

[USRailFan]

It's allowed but would have to be specifically authorised. If the driver thought there was no need for it (had previously passed through the area on the other line, weather had improved, better light etc) then the guard would probably have stayed in the train - I'd suggest that in 99.9% of the time in these circumstaces, the guard would have remained in the train. They were likely in their office in the TGS, which appears to have been the leading passenger vehicle, right behind the leading PC. If the set had been in the opposite formation, or indeed travelling in the other direction, it's likely the guard would have been in the rear coach and therefore survived.

So the third crewmember - the one who walked to the line telephone - would then likely have been in the opposite end (operating catering trolley)?

 

[tiptoptaff]

There is no TGS in the Scotrail sets - I understand that the guard's office is by the buffet (which was the last Mk3 given the direction of travel)

Interesting, thanks. Didn't realise they didn't TGS vehicles. Should have paid more attention to the vehicle numbers earlier in the thread when the set details were given

 

[43066]

So the third crewmember - the one who walked to the line telephone - would then likely have been in the opposite end (operating catering trolley)?

If they were travelling pass they could have been anywhere.

 

[DB]

I think, travelling back north, it was the first vehicle - which would also explain why it's fire damaged and near the destroyed power car.

It's not - it's the vehicle which remains upright attached to the rear power car - can be clearly seen in the photos (retains slam doors at the counter end, and two windows plated over on one side).

The fire-damaged one is an ordinary standard-class coach.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

As the incident seems to have happened along a section of line with a raised embankment leading to the bridge parapet, might the embankment have failed / slipped just enough to cause the derailment (due to the weight of the train passing over it) because of water ingress / saturation, and not readily observable.

It's entirely possible, but we will need input from the geotechnical engineers to ascertain how this accident developed and to what extent, if any, the passing of the train contributed to any failure(s) of the permanent way.

I'm looking at the rainfall data from SEPA and it looks like there was no rainfall in the area until yesterday morning, with 31.4mm at 06:00, 20.6mm at 07:00, 21.4mm at 08:00 and 5.6mm at 09:00 with no further rainfall. It's not my area of expertise, but such short and heavy rainfall may well defeat the existing monitoring equipment that is in use on the network.

 

[Sleepy]

If they were travelling pass they could have been anywhere.

Could also be a driver / guard travelling towards Glasgow to work another train back or attend a medical.

 

[londonteacher]

A gofundme page has been set up to support the families of the Driver and Guard who booked on yesterday, but never booked off. Hope it's ok to post here for the railway family to donate if they wish

Donate to 1T08, organized by Dave Downey

With what has happened today and we are a railway family let's help out the driver's family and the conduct's family… Dave Downey needs your support for 1T08

www.gofundme.com

Is there also a fundraising page for the passenger who sadly lost their life? I know that currently their name has not been published but I'm sure this would be beneficial to their family.

 

[EverAnOptimist]

I can't get my head around the way everything has come to rest. I've not read in detail the rest of the thread, but I'm inclined to believe part of the train has been slightly airborne for all the carriages to be in such awkward positions.

Trying to get my head round how everything has come to rest to, I think reply #703 makes a good point/start.

That is that the leading power car derailed to the left on the approach to the bridge, impacting the masonry parapet head-on and becoming stiff whilst still being pushed from the rear (pushing the rear in the opposite direction) due to the significant speed and mass of the remaining carriages and trailing power car.

The leading power car now deflected to the left (in direction of travel) came down the embankment bringing the first carriage with it. The second carriage still being pushed from the rear with its front deflected partially to the left due to the carriage in fronts movement began a concertina, with its rear being pushed such that it was perpendicular to the tracks, at this point it potentially began rolling over or was pushed into a roll/upside down when the 3rd carriage mounted it and it then skidded on its roof down the tracks. The third carriage now atop of the the second & deflected to the right due to its movement was then pushed/rolled over as the 4th carriage also mounted the second and it & the trailing power car slightly deflected to the left (with its rear and the power cars front pushing the 3rd carriage). This is where they then came to rest.

This picture here is a good reference. All speculation of course.

 

[43066]

The speculation contained within this thread does not dignify the severity of this incident. As of right now there are 429 people viewing this thread, of whom 236 are guests. Consequently we do not know who may be reading this discussion nor what conclusions may be being drawn from it.

While it’s not unreasonable that we have questions and possible theories, wouldn’t it be better to keep these to ourselves and wait for the proper authorities who will have access to the crash site, OTMR, voice tapes and all the pertinent factual information to carry out their investigations? The RAIB will tell us all in due course.

While I understand where you’re coming from, nobody on the thread is claiming to know what happened, and I can’t see anything wrong with discussing topical aspects of railway operation. The mods are doing a good job of keeping the discussion sensible and relevant.

As an industry I’d say we need to get rather better at discussing why and how things can go wrong.

 

[Mike395]

Just another quick reminder - please can we stop and think before going too much into speculation as to the cause of this incident. As O L Leigh says a few posts above, we need to be mindful that the RAIB will carry out an investigation in due course, and speculation on that outcome at this point is unhelpful. Also, please think 'if a family member of someone who has sadly died in this tragedy is reading my reply, would it cause any offence or upset?' - if the answer is yes, you probably shouldn't be posting that reply.

 

[ainsworth74]

And just to add to the above from @Mike395 can I ask that we also leave the discussion regarding how emergency services locate accidents and whether they can use OS Grid References or not to a new thread please? I appreciate my early warning wasn't quite as clear as it could have been but I think it would be best if we move on. No doubt the RAIB will identify how the alarm was raised so we will find out in due time how it worked in this incident which means I don't think there's anything else to be gained here on discussing it further. If anyone wants to discuss it in general terms then a new thread would be more than welcome.

 

[O L Leigh]

As an industry I’d say we need to get rather better at discussing why and how things can go wrong.

I don’t disagree. But this is not an industry forum and the findings of the RAIB investigation will be publicly accessible to all who have an interest in reading it.

 

[marks87]

In terms of when things happened yesterday, I expect the RAIB will release an interim report in the next few days that details the timeline, because that consists of readily-available facts (e.g. the original call to the signaller, the time the "wrong road" move was authorised, the time(s) that emergency services were notified etc.).

Releasing that timeline will stop speculation as to how long the train was there.

 

[87electric]

The upright coach is 40622. Designated TGFB. Trailer First Class with mini buffet and guards compartment.

 

[Scotrail314209]

A lot of people are suggesting that the 3rd member of staff was a catering member. Scotrail have suspended their catering service on all trains, so it may well have been another guard travelling passenger.

 

[bramling]

My experience of a GWR 2+4 "Castle" HST (only between Penzance and St. Erth, admittedly) is some very sprightly low-end acceleration akin to a high-performance DMU, especially on a lightly loaded train. Plus any effect of gradient on the relevant section.

The section is question seems to be gently downhill, so along with the good performance of the short HST could well have allowed it to reach a reasonable speed if it was being driven to line speed.

Looking at the early photos of the accident where fine blue skies can be seen, and working on the basis there wasn’t a big delay in the incident being reported, it seems a reasonably possibility that the poor weather had largely passed by the time the train departed north from Carmont.

 

[weastebusdepot]

I'm trying to make sense of where the 158 was in this. I don't know this line, so please forgive any confusion on my part.

I understand the HST was initially stopped by a landslide before it was routed back to Stonehaven. Had the 158 come from this direction initially? Where did the 158's journey start?

The 158 started it's journey at Montrose. It was booked to travel to Inverurie passing through Stonehaven, Aberdeen and Dyce along the way. Around this time there were social media posts showing water above the railhead on the Aberdeen through platforms, whilst National Rail's current disruption pages was showing lines blocked between Aberdeen and Dyce due to a fallen wall. Therefore it was understandably terminated at Stonehaven. However if it was sitting on the down platform at Stonehaven with nowhere else to go, it might be another explanation why 1T08 wouldn't have started returning north until the platform was unoccupied.

 

[Crossover]

A gofundme page has been set up to support the families of the Driver and Guard who booked on yesterday, but never booked off. Hope it's ok to post here for the railway family to donate if they wish

Donate to 1T08, organized by Dave Downey

With what has happened today and we are a railway family let's help out the driver's family and the conduct's family… Dave Downey needs your support for 1T08

www.gofundme.com

Sorry to be the one to raise this, but does anyone know the campaign organiser and if they have any contact with either of the families or are in liaison with ScotRail or similar?

On the face of it, to me it rings a few alarm bells, not least as the organiser is shown to be located in Blackpool (so not particularly local to the area of the incident) and the narrative is lacking and not entirely clear (surely if this was someone in the railway they would know it was "conductors'" and not "conduct's"...)

It may be above board, but I would suggest exercising caution if we don't know the authenticity - sadly these exceptional situations bring out people who may not have the best of intentions. Indeed, there were a few which popped up during the earlier stages of Covid/lockdown which were removed within a few days

 

[westcoaster]

Does anyone know the scope of the works taking place at the bridge. You can see orange plant on site, and also at the staging point for the emergency services has a temporary access road structure installed across the field. Maybe it was these workers who alerted the emergency services.

 

[vdriud]

And one of the other coaches is partially underneth it.

The upright coach is the first class one.

There are no first class but is a buffet composite...

40622, 42007, 42564, 42145

 

[link1driver]

Just wanted to post publicly how sad I am at the loss of lives, as someone who drives the route everyday, it really hits home. Deeply saddened at Donald Dinnie passing, worked with him for a lot of years, although I didn’t know the driver, he was a well Kent face. The RAIB will get to the bottom of this incident, everything else is pure speculation, although some decent questions have already been asked on thus forum. RIP Donald COYR.

 

[CAIB]

I think the theory posted somewhere upthread of the front power car derailing and hitting the end of the bridge parapet makes a lot of sense. In that case it would stop very suddenly and the whole train would have had to go somewhere to dissipate its energy, explaining how parts of it went sideways and some coaches probably went up into the air before landing on the one that was crushed. This is a very different outcome from an accident such as Grayrigg, where there was no solid obstruction to stop the train, so it was brought to a stop relatively slowly by running over the ground.

Yes. A fair amount of energy to lose when the road has gone. The whole scene looks quick though. By chance two landslip is tragic.

 

[Saint66]

As you would expect, NR are carrying out inspections of similar/higher risk embankments following yesterday's tragic incident - https://news.sky.com/story/stonehav...fatal-aberdeenshire-train-derailment-12048213

Specialist inspections will be carried out on higher risk railway embankments following the fatal train derailment in Aberdeenshire, which killed three people and injured six others.

Network Rail will carry out the supplementary checks as an immediate precaution following Wednesday's crash.


The inspections - which will also involve a helicopter survey - will take place on areas of railway track with earth cuttings that are similar to those at Stonehaven, where the ScotRail passenger train derailed.

 

[55002]

Just wanted to post publicly how sad I am at the loss of lives, as someone who drives the route everyday, it really hits home. Deeply saddened at Donald Dinnie passing, worked with him for a lot of years, although I didn’t know the driver, he was a well Kent face. The RAIB will get to the bottom of this incident, everything else is pure speculation, although some decent questions have already been asked on thus forum. RIP Donald COYR.

Hear hear.