Furloughing in the UK - what is the current situation?

[Chester1]

I think you are right, but it is quite difficult to make any meaningful changes without putting some people into the misery of 'negative equity'.

It can be done through stagnant prices and growing wages. Even prices dropping very slowly should avoid negative equity as If people repay their mortgage faster than then the value of their home drops.

I support a wage top up scheme, probably best done by having a minimum proportion of pre covid hours to be eligible for the furlough scheme. E.G 60% and the government pays upto 80%.

 

[RT4038]

Its the employer who lining their pockets. When you can recover your housing layouts cost after two weeks, each caravan or hut brings in between £400 to £800 each week when you deduct the housing charge from the pay packet. With other deductions, the weekly pay packet is only about £100, this is still a lot of money to a East European from places like Bulgaria and Romania when taking home, the cost of living in these places is far lower as are the pay rates.

The Nature and Scale of Labour Exploitation Across All Sectors Within the United Kingdom Report by the Gandmaster and Labour abuse Authority 2018

I am not doubting that exploitation takes place, but where does it say that elimination of this will not result in increased prices for consumers? It doesn't, because we all know that will be the effect. So we turn turn a blind eye, and are therefore complicit. And we do that because we don't like the idea of reduced prosperity.

 

[Ken H]

In that case pay in those jobs has to escalate until people actually want to do them.

The UK economy is rather dysfunctional, I am told we are short of workers and yet we have a lot of industries operating in a very labour inefficient fashion. Which is it?

If you make unskilled jobs more expensive to employers then there is a risk employers will mechanise/computerise, or simply change their business to reduce headcount.
Have you not noticed the self pay machines at McDonalds and Morrisons cafes, and ordering by app at Wetherspoons?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wetherspoons has never offered table service so the app doesn't remove staff, and the same bar staff still need to bring your drinks over. It actually takes more staff time to handle an app sale than a bar sale.

 

[HSTEd]

If you make unskilled jobs more expensive to employers then there is a risk employers will mechanise/computerise, or simply change their business to reduce headcount.
Have you not noticed the self pay machines at McDonalds and Morrisons cafes, and ordering by app at Wetherspoons?

Precisely.

We want a world where we dont have vast number of people employed in menial jobs with terrible pay and conditions.
We need to drive the economy to a labour-tight condition to improve the standard of living of those at the bottom by deploying labour saving technology.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Precisely.

We want a world where we dont have vast number of people employed in menial jobs with terrible pay and conditions.
We need to drive the economy to a labour-tight condition to improve the standard of living of those at the bottom by deploying labour saving technology.

But what about people who genuinely don't have the intelligence or motor skills to do a skilled job? Surely the existence of basic manual labour for those people is important? The key being that the pay and conditions need to be better, and we need to be willing to pay a little more for our fruit and veg (say) to ensure those jobs are paid properly?

The thing that to me has gone wrong was that we have lost the way as recently as even the 80s many working-class people used to do a basic job but get enough money to live properly without benefits (even if it was a basic life, renting a typical Victorian two up two down or a decent quality Council house and with a camping holiday in the UK, probably by train, once a year), and be proud of the quality of the job they were doing and appreciated by people for doing it? We really do need that back to some extent.

 

[HSTEd]

But what about people who genuinely don't have the intelligence or motor skills to do a skilled job? Surely the existence of basic manual labour for those people is important?

We have manual labour at far greater levels than could be justified by the requirements of such people though.
Automation will not be able to drive all manual labour out of the market, certainly not in our lifetimes.

 

[Bantamzen]

But what about people who genuinely don't have the intelligence or motor skills to do a skilled job? Surely the existence of basic manual labour for those people is important? The key being that the pay and conditions need to be better, and we need to be willing to pay a little more for our fruit and veg (say) to ensure those jobs are paid properly?

The thing that to me has gone wrong was that we have lost the way as recently as even the 80s many working-class people used to do a basic job but get enough money to live properly without benefits (even if it was a basic life, renting a typical Victorian two up two down or a decent quality Council house and with a camping holiday in the UK, probably by train, once a year), and be proud of the quality of the job they were doing and appreciated by people for doing it? We really do need that back to some extent.

Give a man a fish & he will feed for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will feed for a lifetime.

Surely it is better to raise the standard of those least fortunate than to simply throw them the odd bone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Give a man a fish & he will feed for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will feed for a lifetime.

Surely it is better to raise the standard of those least fortunate than to simply throw them the odd bone?

Not everyone is capable of doing skilled or technical jobs, training or not. And we are missing out for not having those important manual jobs done - dirtier and weed-strewn streets, no or unsafe public toilets, messy, litter-strewn parks etc. We would all benefit from a return of those jobs.

 

[Bantamzen]

Not everyone is capable of doing skilled or technical jobs, training or not. And we are missing out for not having those important manual jobs done - dirtier and weed-strewn streets, no or unsafe public toilets, messy, litter-strewn parks etc. We would all benefit from a return of those jobs.

In time a lot of those jobs could be automated. So why not give the people who you would have do them more skills, give them a chance to better themselves? Or would you rather keep them at that level to help others feel better about themselves? You see I firmly believe that our best way forward is to automate the mundane as much as possible, and empower & enrich everyone.

It’s a good experience, not a regular experience.

Listen at £300 for 2, I want that cow to have been hand-fed the finest grasses known to humanity, had daily massages from highly skilled masseurs, had regular therapy sessions and given the freedom of a field the size of Gibraltar.

Nah, who am I kidding? I'm from Yorkshire. Three hundred brick for a couple of slabs of cow & a bottle of plonk is a rip off. I've travelled around the Med and had food that has simply blown me away for less than 10% of that cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In time a lot of those jobs could be automated. So why not give the people who you would have do them more skills, give them a chance to better themselves? Or would you rather keep them at that level to help others feel better about themselves? You see I firmly believe that our best way forward is to automate the mundane as much as possible, and empower & enrich everyone.

I'd love that to be the case, but there are, genuinely, people who do not have the brain capacity or dexterity to do a mentally challenging or skilled job (however good the training), and if you automate out all of those jobs that gives them nothing to do. OK, you could introduce UBI and so just pay them to do nowt, but that isn't exactly great for building self-worth.

I'd agree that people who *do* have that ability need to be encouraged to move up from those jobs (though they are a good starting point - perhaps a groundskeeper could move to a manager role in the Council?) but it will not be everyone.

A wider range of jobs, all respected, means a wider range of employed people.

FWIW it'll be a long time before we can automate weeding e.g. between paving flags. We might be able to automate spraying toxic glyphosphates, but we should perhaps be looking to move away from that[1]. And CCTV is just no substitute for a bog attendant or an attentive park keeper. CCTV is good for catching people afterwards (ish), but crime prevention really requires a person there to go "oi, no!".

[1] Some Councils already have - Lancaster, for instance, as a result of which most of the residential areas, which are classic stone flags and even some cobbles, look like 28 Days Later has happened rather than a pandemic of a mostly relatively minor coronavirus.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I remind everyone we are discussing the current situation re Furloughing in the UK in this thread. For discussion of eating out in chains vs independents please see the following thread (I've moved some more posts from this thread to that thread)

Are chain restaurants and shops failing because of COVID, or are they just not very good?

Pizza Express Stoke-on-Trent Garlic Bread, Pizza, glass of beer £25!!! I rest my case.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[RT4038]

But what about people who genuinely don't have the intelligence or motor skills to do a skilled job? Surely the existence of basic manual labour for those people is important? The key being that the pay and conditions need to be better, and we need to be willing to pay a little more for our fruit and veg (say) to ensure those jobs are paid properly?

Except, of course, we won't be willing to pay more for our fruit and veg - if prices go up we will demand salary rises to compensate for our loss of standard of living. Exactly what happened in the 70s, when the lowest paid workers were fighting for higher wages. This will in turn put the prices of everything else up to. It is called inflation. The lowest paid will not end up better off, and those living on savings and pension pots will be worse off.

We can't go back to those rose tinted days of the 80s (if they were ever really there) because the standard of living of so many has been improved, and those many do not want this standard to slip. This standard of living was achieved by offshoring production to cheaper jurisdictions, and for those low skilled jobs that couldn't be, tightening terms and conditions to reduce costs. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it will not be easy to put it back in.

More litter pickers or toilet attendants will cost the Government more than having those people on Universal Credit for a while, until the labour market adjusts. This will mean more taxation, and therefore inflationary as people demand higher salaries to keep their current standard of living.

 

[Midnight Sun]

More litter pickers or toilet attendants will cost the Government more than having those people on Universal Credit for a while, until the labour market adjusts. This will mean more taxation, and therefore inflationary as people demand higher salaries to keep their current standard of living.

Which is why the Daily Bigot readers call for people on Benefits to do workfare cleaning the streets and parks in return for their handouts.

 

[yorksrob]

We can't go back to those rose tinted days of the 80s (if they were ever really there) because the standard of living of so many has been improved, and those many do not want this standard to slip. This standard of living was achieved by offshoring production to cheaper jurisdictions, and for those low skilled jobs that couldn't be, tightening terms and conditions to reduce costs. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it will not be easy to put it back in.

If you pay more people a decent living wage, they have more money to spend in the economy. If you keep on offshoring everything to cut costs, there won't be enough people to keep the economy going at home, then you're left with no economy.

 

[RT4038]

If you pay more people a decent living wage, they have more money to spend in the economy. If you keep on offshoring everything to cut costs, there won't be enough people to keep the economy going at home, then you're left with no economy.

But the money for this decent living wage has to come from somewhere, so that means from other people in the economy who were spending money to keep the economy going.

 

[yorksrob]

But the money for this decent living wage has to come from somewhere, so that means from other people in the economy who were spending money to keep the economy going.

Indeed. It only works if you keep the cycle going and the money going around the system. If you start outsourcing everything it all falls apart.

 

[greyman42]

Indeed. It only works if you keep the cycle going and the money going around the system. If you start outsourcing everything it all falls apart.

Working from home does not help this either.

 

[RT4038]

Working from home does not help this either.

Well except that the money saved by not travelling to work, patronising city sandwich bars, going on overseas holidays etc is instead being spent on all sorts of home improvements, which is generating employment. We don't have to go back to the previous pattern of economic activity.

 

[birchesgreen]

Also money is spent in the local area not the city. I've been to a few so-called dormitory towns and they really do with a bit more money being spent locally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well except that the money saved by not travelling to work, patronising city sandwich bars, going on overseas holidays etc is instead being spent on all sorts of home improvements, which is generating employment. We don't have to go back to the previous pattern of economic activity.

One thing I've long thought as a long time homeworker is that it'd be nice if in my suburb there was a nice little cafe to go to at lunchtime. If you're at home all the time, going out for lunch is a nice treat, but where I am the only place walkable is a fairly rubbish knock-off "Nando's" that doesn't open at lunchtime and a pub, neither of which really fit - if I want to go to something else I need to drive (public transport/cycling not an option due to distance and limited time for lunch). Some of these cafes might do well to relocate to the suburbs as a result.

 

[RT4038]

One thing I've long thought as a long time homeworker is that it'd be nice if in my suburb there was a nice little cafe to go to at lunchtime. If you're at home all the time, going out for lunch is a nice treat, but where I am the only place walkable is a fairly rubbish knock-off "Nando's" that doesn't open at lunchtime and a pub, neither of which really fit - if I want to go to something else I need to drive (public transport/cycling not an option due to distance and limited time for lunch). Some of these cafes might do well to relocate to the suburbs as a result.

I guess that if WFH gets to a critical mass on a permanent basis, then cafes in the suburbs may become more of the norm? Nowt wrong with that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess that if WFH gets to a critical mass on a permanent basis, then cafes in the suburbs may become more of the norm? Nowt wrong with that!

Indeed not. You could have butchers, bakers and greengrocers back too, because you could pop to those on the way home or for an afternoon walk. The masses working from home is not only a negative thing as some think it is, it has a number of potential great positives.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Indeed not. You could have butchers, bakers and greengrocers back too, because you could pop to those on the way home or for an afternoon walk. The masses working from home is not only a negative thing as some think it is, it has a number of potential great positives.

I already frequented some of my local shops pre-COVID and continue to do so whilst on furlough. If I were on full salary, I'd go quite a bit more often.

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed not. You could have butchers, bakers and greengrocers back too, because you could pop to those on the way home or for an afternoon walk. The masses working from home is not only a negative thing as some think it is, it has a number of potential great positives.

I can almost heat the strains of Dvorak coming through.....

However, as with many places in the suburbs there is a small, teeny tiny problem, lack of suitable premises. So you are going to need landlords to sell properties they may never be able to sell, find properties that can not only be bought (and likely for a lot more per square metre), but be converted into café / restaurants and get through all the red tape & no doubt objections from people in the area. Its a nice idea, but unfortunately like some of your other ideas you haven't really thought any of this through.

Maybe in 10-20-30 years we might see more of this, it sure as heck won't happen overnight, which is the kind of timescales a lot of these businesses need the real world solutions to their immediate problems.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I think this hits the nail on the head. For *some* people this is all a godsend.

Certainly it’s very convenient for there to be a continued narrative that things like public transport are dangerous, masks being part of that.

We’re having similar with some of the shielding people. Now back with a “light workload”. It’s either safe or it’s not, and why on earth do they need a light workload then they’ve had half a year resting at home? Quite frankly some should simply be disposed off, however again it’s not easy to separate the decent from the deadwood.

Slightly off-topic, but we had about a dozen people return to work recently, after furlough and shielding was ended/paused.
One of these initially gave the impression of being ultra-cautious of anyone coming close, even refusing to loan someone a pen for the few seconds it would take to complete a routine leave request, lest the deadly virus be passed on. He used ‘fear of covid’ to apply for furlough, yet he now does overtime regularly, never wearing masks or asking people in his work area to do so. People commented that someone in genuine fear would surely not choose to put themselves in additional ‘danger’ by working extra hours, over and above those they are obliged to, when Covid is still around

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apply for furlough? You're not supposed to be able to apply for it. It's supposed to be determined by the employer based on the job role not being required (i.e. it's temporary compulsory redundancy), or based on the receipt of a shielding letter from the Government. If people are "applying for" it, it's being misused.

 

[bramling]

Slightly off-topic, but we had about a dozen people return to work recently, after furlough and shielding was ended/paused.
One of these initially gave the impression of being ultra-cautious of anyone coming close, even refusing to loan someone a pen for the few seconds it would take to complete a routine leave request, lest the deadly virus be passed on. He used ‘fear of covid’ to apply for furlough, yet he now does overtime regularly, never wearing masks or asking people in his work area to do so. People commented that someone in genuine fear would surely not choose to put themselves in additional ‘danger’ by working extra hours, over and above those they are obliged to, when Covid is still around

We had similar, at my place one went on shielding for four months ... but only after finishing a week of overtime. Complete ****take.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Apply for furlough? You're not supposed to be able to apply for it. It's supposed to be determined by the employer based on the job role not being required (i.e. it's temporary compulsory redundancy), or based on the receipt of a shielding letter from the Government. If people are "applying for" it, it's being misused.

Employers misusing government funds? It’s the government’s job to splurge and misuse the funds we supply them with

Seriously, though, this person claimed fear of the consequences of getting coronavirus was affecting his mental health to such an extent that I assume he got something from his GP that gave rise to a letter from the government.

 

[Ianno87]

Apply for furlough? You're not supposed to be able to apply for it. It's supposed to be determined by the employer based on the job role not being required (i.e. it's temporary compulsory redundancy), or based on the receipt of a shielding letter from the Government. If people are "applying for" it, it's being misused.

If somebody was medically required to shield and cannot work from home, then furlough is reasonable.

Depends whether "apply for furlough" really means "making my employer aware I am unable to travel to work due to being required to shield".