Loss of rights on Cross-London e-tickets

[SickyNicky]

I was alerted to this by a customer this morning. Look at the following fare:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BTN&dest=BDM&grpd=0410&ldn=1&tkt=SVR

You can see that it includes the Maltese cross for a cross-London transfer. However, this ticket is available as both TOD and e-ticket. When the latter is chosen (in conjunction with a Thameslink itinerary), no Maltese Cross is given, thus removing the right for a cross-London transfer.

This is the first instance I've come across where I would recommend that customers DON'T use e-tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why inconvenience those who are going to use Thameslink in having to faff about with a paper ticket when they have no intention of going via London, though?

It could perhaps do with having a couple of quid taken off it and being routed via City Thameslink (otherwise you remove the right to change to EWR at St Pancras if you wanted) but otherwise I don't see too much of a problem with this, beyond the sales UI should warn you that there is no LU validity on an e-ticket if you choose it.

We're going to have to address it at some point.

 

[Hadders]

This is very concerning, and not dissimilar to the issue I raised last week with Chiltern incorrectly issuing e-tickets to Kings Cross rather than London Terminals.

There are many reasons why a passenger might want to use the underground on a Bedford to Brighton ticket (for starters it’s actually valid via Euston, and often EMR and a quick change between STP and VIC on the Underground is faster than a direct Thameslink train.

The rail industry will not reduce the price so passengers will end up either losing flexibility or having to pay more.

The solution is either:

TfL accept etickets
E-tickets requiring a cross London interchange are withdrawn

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL accept etickets
E-tickets requiring a cross London interchange are withdrawn

3. Withdraw cross London validity other than on Thameslink and knock two quid off the price of these tickets. A through ticket used to save you the faff of buying a ticket at the TVM, now you just use contactless. That would also offer the option of using a bus, taxi, "Sadiq cycle", e-scooter or just walking without paying for a transfer you aren't going to use.

 

[Hadders]

3. Withdraw cross London validity and knock two quid off the price of these tickets. A through ticket used to save you the faff of buying a ticket at the TVM, now you just use contactless.

I did consider that but decided against it as it could have intended consequences. For example, what would happen to delay repay, you’d them have some TOCs trying to argue that as you had to have a separate ticket to travel on the underground it’s no longer a through ticket (I know it shouldn’t happen but even today we still have TOCs saying you have to buy a new ticket in the event that you miss a train due to a delay caused by the rail industry)

Also, you’d need to knock off more than a couple of quid. A single zone 1 journey on the Underground is £2.40 (and that’s before what I fear will be an inflation busting increase in January to discourage short distance Z1 journeys), so you’d need to knock £5 off a return. There’ll be no appetite to do this, especially on something like Stevenage to Slough care (shorter distances are available)

 

[Mag_seven]

Is it not beyond the wit of man for TfL to install a limited number of e-ticket readers at barriers at stations where a "cross London" ticket would be valid?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it not beyond the wit of man for TfL to install a limited number of e-ticket readers at barriers at stations where a "cross London" ticket would be valid?

I suspect the problem there is who pays for them? TfL aren't going to want to as it's not their problem that National Rail TOCs are moving headlong into a technology that is of no interest to them so why should they pay for it?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I suspect the problem there is who pays for them? TfL aren't going to want to as it's not their problem that National Rail TOCs are moving headlong into a technology that is of no interest to them so why should they pay for it?

Indeed. The cooperative attitude of the 80s that led to the Travelcard being developed has long gone. It's all about penny pinching and blaming someone else.

 

[Haywain]

being routed via City Thameslink

To completely remove ambiguity it could be routed 'Not Underground'.

It's all about penny pinching and blaming someone else.

I don't agree with that - in the 1980s there were two organisations with a stake in this - BR and LT. Now there are many more and the TOCs all have different priorities and timescales so there is no easy apportioning of costs. However, it is also overlooked that TfL have an additional problem with barcode ticket acceptance and that is that they require a fast flow of people through ticket barriers, without which they could find themselves having to close stations more frequently due to overcrowding as part of their safety case. It isn't clear that they have any confidence that such a flow could be maintained if people are using barcode tickets.

 

[najaB]

This is the first instance I've come across where I would recommend that customers DON'T use e-tickets.

Are we sure that this is deliberate and not just an oversight?

 

[35B]

Are we sure that this is deliberate and not just an oversight?

If so, it seems strange that it's been done to one format and not the other.

 

[Ianno87]

3. Withdraw cross London validity other than on Thameslink and knock two quid off the price of these tickets. A through ticket used to save you the faff of buying a ticket at the TVM, now you just use contactless. That would also offer the option of using a bus, taxi, "Sadiq cycle", e-scooter or just walking without paying for a transfer you aren't going to use.

I did consider that but decided against it as it could have intended consequences. For example, what would happen to delay repay, you’d them have some TOCs trying to argue that as you had to have a separate ticket to travel on the underground it’s no longer a through ticket (I know it shouldn’t happen but even today we still have TOCs saying you have to buy a new ticket in the event that you miss a train due to a delay caused by the rail industry)

Also, you’d need to knock off more than a couple of quid. A single zone 1 journey on the Underground is £2.40 (and that’s before what I fear will be an inflation busting increase in January to discourage short distance Z1 journeys), so you’d need to knock £5 off a return. There’ll be no appetite to do this, especially on something like Stevenage to Slough care (shorter distances are available)

Interesting that in the closest comparable city to London (Paris), you very much have to pay separately for a Metro transfer between Termini.

I agree that Contactless / Oyster provides the convenience these days of not having to queue up to buy a separate ticket.

 

[Hadders]

Interesting that in the closest comparable city to London (Paris), you very much have to pay separately for a Metro transfer between Termini.

I agree that Contactless / Oyster provides the convenience these days of not having to queue up to buy a separate ticket.

And what a pain it is in Paris having to buy a separate ticket when crossing Paris, especially if time is tight.

What’s wrong with being more joined up and integrated (shouldn’t we be trying to do more of that?) rather than adopting a ‘can’t do it because’ type of attitude, to the detriment of passengers.

London’s current system is much more passenger friendly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And what a pain it is in Paris having to buy a separate ticket when crossing Paris, especially if time is tight.

That it perhaps is, but tapping your contactless card on the barrier is arguably slightly less faff than inserting a paper ticket.

 

[Haywain]

If so, it seems strange that it's been done to one format and not the other.

What is it that you think "has been done"?

 

[Hadders]

That it perhaps is, but tapping your contactless card on the barrier is arguably slightly less faff than inserting a paper ticket.

But not if I end up paying more. I doubt that something like a Stevenage to Slough off peak day return will be reduced in price by £4.80.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is it that you think "has been done"?

Most flows with the Maltese cross aren't enabled for e-tickets. This one, it seems, is enabled, as a result of which if you select an e-ticket you get less validity than if you select a paper ticket.

But not if I end up paying more. I doubt that something like a Stevenage to Slough off peak day return will be reduced in price by £4.80.

You might want to check, with that one, if an outboundary Travelcard plus a BZ6-Slough return isn't cheaper anyway - it is for quite a number of flows like that one. Though that also raises the question of what to do with those tickets - though I expect the long term solution for outboundary Travelcards (even day travelcards) is probably ITSO. It's not really realistic to think TfL will maintain the magstripe readers forever for increasingly small numbers of railway ticket holders.

 

[Hadders]

You might want to check, with that one, if an outboundary Travelcard plus a BZ6-Slough return isn't cheaper anyway - it is for quite a number of flows like that one. Though that also raises the question of what to do with those tickets - though I expect the long term solution for outboundary Travelcards is probably ITSO.

The Travelcard and BZ combination can be cheaper, especially at weekends.

The point still stands though. There is no way a shortish distance return involving a cross London connection is going to be reduced in price by a fiver

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The Travelcard and BZ combination can be cheaper, especially at weekends.

The point still stands though. There is no way a shortish distance return involving a cross London connection is going to be reduced in price by a fiver

You say that, but the through fare (particularly ex-SVG, strangely it's dearer that direction) is only slightly more than the sum of the relevant London Terminals CDRs + 2× £2.40.

Of course there are many other cases where the difference is rather more and so a fare cut would not be palatable to the DfT/Treasury. In reality we all know what will happen.

 

[Hadders]

You say that, but the through fare (particularly ex-SVG, strangely it's dearer that direction) is only slightly more than the sum of the relevant London Terminals CDRs + 2× £2.40.

Of course there are many other cases where the difference is rather more and so a fare cut would not be palatable to the DfT/Treasury. In reality we all know what will happen.

Let’s not get distracted by a random example..... You are absolutely right that if the DfT/Treasury went down this route it would result in a huge increase in fares via the back door.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say that, but the through fare (particularly ex-SVG, strangely it's dearer that direction) is only slightly more than the sum of the relevant London Terminals CDRs + 2× £2.40.

They very often are priced like that - I find through off peak fares for a day return journey are very often poor value. Only usually worth buying them for a period return, particularly in the case where there isn't a period return to London or from it.

There are even some through cross-London day return fares to destinations in zones 5/6 (both Anytime and off peak) that are more expensive than a Travelcard which would also be valid for that journey, sometimes considerably so - Bletchley to East Croydon is definitely one of these.

If you do the split with a Travelcard plus a BZ6 ticket you also include the option to use the bus for the transfer, which is often more convenient.

 

[35B]

What is it that you think "has been done"?

It was in the context of a question about why if the loss of availability via Underground should be accidental in one format but not the other.

 

[Wallsendmag]

A ticket from Bedford to Brighton priced by the TOC that has a frequent direct service isn't valid to use the tube, shock horror. In this case isn't it a case of adding two and two and making 17? THE RDG guidelines say Cross London shouldn't be enabled for eTickets.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A ticket from Bedford to Brighton priced by the TOC that has a frequent direct service isn't valid to use the tube, shock horror. In this case isn't it a case of adding two and two and making 17? THE RDG guidelines say Cross London shouldn't be enabled for eTickets.

Right, so if it's not valid on the Tube, then why has the price stayed the same whilst passengers' rights have decreased?

Is it completely unreasonable to want to break your journey in Europe's biggest city? And perhaps take a train into one London Terminal but depart from another?

 

[Hadders]

A ticket from Bedford to Brighton priced by the TOC that has a frequent direct service isn't valid to use the tube, shock horror. In this case isn't it a case of adding two and two and making 17? THE RDG guidelines say Cross London shouldn't be enabled for eTickets.

It’s often faster if you take EMR to St Pancras then Underground to Victoria and a fast train from there. Journey planners even suggest that, and many people would beat the cross London connection between STP and VIC and get a train ahead of their itinerary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s often faster if you take EMR to St Pancras then Underground to Victoria and a fast train from there. Journey planners even suggest that, and many people would beat the cross London connection between STP and VIC and get a train ahead of their itinerary.

And if you pick that, it won't give you an e-ticket.

 

[Hadders]

And if you pick that, it won't give you an e-ticket.

But such ticket is routed Any Permitted. It shouldn’t be restricted to a particular route.

If what you are saying is correct, an an e-ticket will only be offered if an itinerary via City Thameslink is selected then we are in the same territory as the e-tickets to London Terminals thread I created last week.

etickets to London Terminals

I'm travelling from Stevenage to London tomorrow and have booked via Chiltern's website and selected an eticket. I selected Great Northern branded services between Stevenage and Kings Cross when I booked the tickets. The eticket has been issued from 'SVG' to 'KGX'. Had I have selected a paper...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[js517]

A ticket from Bedford to Brighton priced by the TOC that has a frequent direct service isn't valid to use the tube, shock horror. In this case isn't it a case of adding two and two and making 17? THE RDG guidelines say Cross London shouldn't be enabled for eTickets.

Do you know which RDG accreditation document mentions this? I haven't been able to find it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A reasonable fix for this would be to copy the fare and add a NOT UNDERGROUND one enabled for e-ticketing with the Any Permitted one not, price it 10p less so there's a differentiation.

 

[Hadders]

A reasonable fix for this would be to copy the fare and add a NOT UNDERGROUND one enabled for e-ticketing with the Any Permitted one not, price it 10p less so there's a differentiation.

Why should passengers end with less flexibility and more complicated fares....