Service improvements made possible by reinstating Castleford platform 2

[Iskra]

Moderator note: see also the following thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ervice-provision-through-to-castleford.223295

Branchline News( https://www.branchline.uk/home.php ) Page 30 reports that;

'An item reviewed in the Leeds Area Strategic Study ... is providing sufficient track and platform capacity on the 'Five Towns Corridor,' to support two Leeds-Sheffield trains per hour via Castleford. This would include reinstating Castleford P2. It is also being considered as part of the work to provide improved diversionary routes for the Trans-pennine Route Upgrade.

Firstly, this seems sensible on a number of levels; doubling the frequency on the Hallam line stopper is positive*, reinstating Castleford P2 is also sensible and will provide more operational flexibility and capacity, plus allowing through trains from Castleford to more exotic destinations and diversionary use.

*but why do we need a second really slow, circuitous stopper that includes a reversal? Why not have one slow stopper via Castleford and one direct Hallam line stopper. This is just doubling the current bizarre situation where the railway operates for its own convenience rather than that of its passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

Ooh now this is close to home.

It has to be said, of all the lines I've travelled on since lockdown, my local one, the Hallam is probably, anecdotally the most consistently busy.

That said, we have three trains an hour - two fast and one stopper in our "normal" timetable. The stops from Castleford North and Barnsley South already get two trains an hour, courtesy of other routes.

I'd be more tempted to turn one of the fasts into a semi fast to give a half hourly service to Normanton and the other stop South of Wakefield (whose name escapes me).

Either way, Normy requires a second train an hour to Leeds.

 

[Class 170101]

But are you likely to get that. DfT seems keen right now to remove trains from the timetable.

 

[yorksrob]

Well it can't remove any from Normy, we only have an hourly service anyway.

 

[YorksLad12]

Firstly, this seems sensible on a number of levels; doubling the frequency on the Hallam line stopper is positive*, reinstating Castleford P2 is also sensible and will provide more operational flexibility and capacity, plus allowing through trains from Castleford to more exotic destinations and diversionary use.

*but why do we need a second really slow, circuitous stopper that includes a reversal? Why not have one slow stopper via Castleford and one direct Hallam line stopper. This is just doubling the current bizarre situation where the railway operates for its own convenience rather than that of its passengers.

There needs to be a better (more clockface) service between Kirkgate and Castleford, rather than the six-minutes apart one we had before the hoo-ha hit. But the problem will be finding paths north of Cas and south of Barnsley, and platforms at Leeds and Sheffield. You could run Hudds - Cas - Ponte, or build P0 at Barnsley, but then it starts to look messy. P2 at Cas is long overdue, for flexibility - and it means all of the Leeds-bound services could go from P2, for example, leaving P1 for services from Leeds and the terminator from Kirkgate.

 

[LMS 4F]

The use of P2 at Castleford raises issues of access. Is it to be a bridge or a tunnel from
P1 or will access be provided from that side of the lines independently?
Not forgetting that it will need disabled access as well.

 

[YorksLad12]

The use of P2 at Castleford raises issues of access. Is it to be a bridge or a tunnel from
P1 or will access be provided from that side of the lines independently?
Not forgetting that it will need disabled access as well.

There's an existing underpass to the west. Assuming entry to and egress from P2 is at the western end there's what looks like NR land for level access to the highway.

The slope of the underpass might need reducing... but it already exists. And there's space on either side to make it more shallow.

 

[Iskra]

The use of P2 at Castleford raises issues of access. Is it to be a bridge or a tunnel from
P1 or will access be provided from that side of the lines independently?
Not forgetting that it will need disabled access as well.

People could just walk over the level crossing?

Edit, ignore- it’s further down the line than I thought

 

[LMS 4F]

There's an existing underpass to the west. Assuming entry to and egress from P2 is at the western end there's what looks like NR land for level access to the highway.

The slope of the underpass might need reducing... but it already exists. And there's space on either side to make it more shallow.

I am aware of the underpass and use it from time to time but I’m not sure where the access would be for P2 and it would be a long old walk if someone ended up on the wrong platform. I’m sure it was a bridge 40 years ago but of course that’s not going to happen.

 

[Iskra]

Ooh now this is close to home.

It has to be said, of all the lines I've travelled on since lockdown, my local one, the Hallam is probably, anecdotally the most consistently busy.

That said, we have three trains an hour - two fast and one stopper in our "normal" timetable. The stops from Castleford North and Barnsley South already get two trains an hour, courtesy of other routes.

I'd be more tempted to turn one of the fasts into a semi fast to give a half hourly service to Normanton and the other stop South of Wakefield (whose name escapes me).

Either way, Normy requires a second train an hour to Leeds.

I agree that is a sensible suggestion. Of course, one of the three existing services is due to be re-routed via Westgate, which leaves a gap...

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that is a sensible suggestion. Of course, one of the three existing services is due to be re-routed via Westgate, which leaves a gap...

Indeed. I believe the Nottingham train was supposed to be replaced by another Leeds - Sheffield fast via Barnsley, but with covid, who knows !

 

[YorksLad12]

Yeah, used to be a bridge. Steps rotted through, I believe, before its removal.

This is where I was thinking - the red rectangle. However, looking at the gradient on the underpass (on the northern side, at least) it might be too much to shallow out so you'd be more likely to get one of the long ramped bridges.

Indeed. I believe the Nottingham train was supposed to be replaced by another Leeds - Sheffield fast via Barnsley, but with covid, who knows !

Splitting hairs, but the Bradford - Leeds - Westgate - Sheffield - Nottingham service was to be new, with the existing service via Kirkgate being cut back to Sheffield. It would have been a useful addition with faster journeys to Nottingham for me but I'm gradually realising that some of the services proposed in the franchise were drawn from the pages of Speculative Ideas

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, used to be a bridge. Steps rotted through, I believe, before its removal.

This is where I was thinking - the red rectangle. However, looking at the gradient on the underpass (on the northern side, at least) it might be too much to shallow out so you'd be more likely to get one of the long ramped bridges.

View attachment 84238



Splitting hairs, but the Bradford - Leeds - Westgate - Sheffield - Nottingham service was to be new, with the existing service via Kirkgate being cut back to Sheffield. It would have been a useful addition with faster journeys to Nottingham for me but I'm gradually realising that some of the services proposed in the franchise were drawn from the pages of Speculative Ideas

Well, it's interesting. I've never been massively convinced that Barnsley needs two expresses per hour all to itself.

 

[tbtc]

A second Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service seems a nonsense - if there are spare paths for Leeds - Castleford then they really should be used for Pontefract services, rather than providing another Sheffield service on paper (that gets overtaken, like the current one already does).

I'm all for improving Castleford station (and improving Castleford generally), but it'd make more sense to focus on Leeds - Pontefract services - the "via Castleford" service to South Yorkshire are a waste of time.

If/when Northern's proposed Leeds -Westgate - Sheffield service happens (to take some pressure off the XC service, although a two coach 195 isn't going to help that much!), and the "Barnsley" services will be less time critical, I'd be tempted to do the following:

• Divert the current Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service to Pontefract and Knottingley
• Stop one of the Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield "semi fast" services at Normanton
• Stop the other Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield "semi fast" services at Darton
• Introduce an hourly Dodworth - Barnsley - Sheffield stopper (in place of the current "via Castleford" service
• That would reduce Castleford - Wakefield to "just" hourly, but the two services per hour are pretty badly timed at the moment, and the Huddersfield service is only really there because one unit can't manage the whopping thirty mile round trip between Wakefield and Huddersfield each hour, so an extra unit is required, and they might as well extend it to Castleford

I've never been massively convinced that Barnsley needs two expresses per hour all to itself

Barnsley has a marginally bigger population than Halifax, yet only gets effectively half the Leeds frequency (since the "via Castleford" service is overtaken en route)

It's still over half an hour to do Leeds - Barnsley, which isn't particularly "fast" (but, I guess, in "Northern" terms, it's all relative)

 

[yorksrob]

A second Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service seems a nonsense - if there are spare paths for Leeds - Castleford then they really should be used for Pontefract services, rather than providing another Sheffield service on paper (that gets overtaken, like the current one already does).

I'm all for improving Castleford station (and improving Castleford generally), but it'd make more sense to focus on Leeds - Pontefract services - the "via Castleford" service to South Yorkshire are a waste of time.

If/when Northern's proposed Leeds -Westgate - Sheffield service happens (to take some pressure off the XC service, although a two coach 195 isn't going to help that much!), and the "Barnsley" services will be less time critical, I'd be tempted to do the following:

• Divert the current Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service to Pontefract and Knottingley
• Stop one of the Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield "semi fast" services at Normanton
• Stop the other Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield "semi fast" services at Darton
• Introduce an hourly Dodworth - Barnsley - Sheffield stopper (in place of the current "via Castleford" service
• That would reduce Castleford - Wakefield to "just" hourly, but the two services per hour are pretty badly timed at the moment, and the Huddersfield service is only really there because one unit can't manage the whopping thirty mile round trip between Wakefield and Huddersfield each hour, so an extra unit is required, and they might as well extend it to Castleford

Barnsley has a marginally bigger population than Halifax, yet only gets effectively half the Leeds frequency (since the "via Castleford" service is overtaken en route)

It's still over half an hour to do Leeds - Barnsley, which isn't particularly "fast" (but, I guess, in "Northern" terms, it's all relative)

Barnsley's a reasonable way from Leeds, so I don't see it as being "a long time"for that journey.

I get your point regarding other similar towns having a more frequent service. I do think they need to stop one of the "fasts" at Normanton. Most similarly sized settlements in WYorks have a half hourly service.

 

[YorksLad12]

A second Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service seems a nonsense - if there are spare paths for Leeds - Castleford then they really should be used for Pontefract services, rather than providing another Sheffield service on paper (that gets overtaken, like the current one already does).

I'm all for improving Castleford station (and improving Castleford generally), but it'd make more sense to focus on Leeds - Pontefract services - the "via Castleford" service to South Yorkshire are a waste of time.

If/when Northern's proposed Leeds -Westgate - Sheffield service happens (to take some pressure off the XC service, although a two coach 195 isn't going to help that much!), and the "Barnsley" services will be less time critical, I'd be tempted to do the following:

• Divert the current Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service to Pontefract and Knottingley
• Stop one of the Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield "semi fast" services at Normanton
• Stop the other Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield "semi fast" services at Darton
• Introduce an hourly Dodworth - Barnsley - Sheffield stopper (in place of the current "via Castleford" service
• That would reduce Castleford - Wakefield to "just" hourly, but the two services per hour are pretty badly timed at the moment, and the Huddersfield service is only really there because one unit can't manage the whopping thirty mile round trip between Wakefield and Huddersfield each hour, so an extra unit is required, and they might as well extend it to Castleford

Barnsley has a marginally bigger population than Halifax, yet only gets effectively half the Leeds frequency (since the "via Castleford" service is overtaken en route)

It's still over half an hour to do Leeds - Barnsley, which isn't particularly "fast" (but, I guess, in "Northern" terms, it's all relative)

A two-carriage 195 wouldn't be great, but it would help!

If you're starting your new stopper from Dodworth why not start it at Penistone? Two units shuttling back and forth every hour? What about passengers from Castleford to points south of Wakefield - are you expecting them to all change at Kirkgate?

The semi-fasts almost stop at Normanton already, southbound, thanks to having to slow down to pass. (Sheffield-)Barnsley-Leeds could be faster; they always seem to be artificially slowed down with waits at Barnsley and Kirkgate, and waiting at signals outside Leeds when I catch them.

Well, it's interesting. I've never been massively convinced that Barnsley needs two expresses per hour all to itself.

Barnsley's part of Leeds City Region's travel to work area. That said, didn't the Leeds-Sheffield semi-fast start off as one one train per hour, before doubling up and then getting the Nottingham extension?

 

[tbtc]

I get your point regarding other similar towns having a more frequent service. I do think they need to stop one of the "fasts" at Normanton. Most similarly sized settlements in WYorks have a half hourly service.

I think that, once the "Westgate" service is introduced (and "long distance" passengers move onto it), there should be more scope for stops at Normanton, maybe Chapletown too (prime Sheffield commuter traffic, frequent bus service but only currently capacity for two trains per hour to stop there) - it's the age old problem of having "local" stations on a "long distance" line (now that the timetable has hourly trains to both Nottingham and Lincoln, rather than twenty years ago when everything terminated at Sheffield) - a few places in northern England suffer from this (Chester le Street, Batley, Dore etc)

A two-carriage 195 wouldn't be great, but it would help!

It feels like a drop in the ocean, when you consider how large they are Sheffield and Leeds are, the fact that there's only one train per hour doing the twenty nine mile distance (as the crow flies) in under an hour, the fact that this one service is run by a Voyager with only two and a half or three and a half Standard Class carriages, and is already full of longer distance passengers (e.g. Birmingham to Newcastle) and is the only service from anywhere large in the Midlands to West Yorkshire (if you ignore Newark etc on the ECML) - it does feel like one of the weakest links between pairs of cities - a 195 feels like a

If you're starting your new stopper from Dodworth why not start it at Penistone? Two units shuttling back and forth every hour?

My "logic" was that there's no scope to terminate it at Barnsley (given the need to dwell for a few minutes before heading back south, and how busy Barnsley is), so, if you're going to go beyond Barnsley then Dodworth would allow a reversal since its single track (without going all the way to Penistone and occupying the single track for some time in each direction) - more a case of "there needs to be a second stopper per hour south of Barnsley" than anything specific to Dodworth to be honest

What about passengers from Castleford to points south of Wakefield - are you expecting them to all change at Kirkgate?

Yes - keep the Castleford - Huddersfield service but I don't think that there are enough passengers to warrant a Castleford - Barnsley service - IMHO it's there because it was a convenient box ticking exercise in BR days (so that everywhere on the line could be served with one train per hour)

didn't the Leeds-Sheffield semi-fast start off as one one train per hour, before doubling up and then getting the Nottingham extension?

Yes, it partly replaced a Wakefield Kirkgate - Sheffield stopper (which was often cancelled in Northern Spirit days, one of the first services to get the chop when there were staffing/stock shortages) - I don't know how long this service had run before (whether it existed in BR days, or was a short lived "innovation" post-privatisation?)

When the Nottingham service was mooted, I was expecting it to be an extension of the hourly Leeds service rather than in addition to it - one of the few times I've been pleasantly surprised by the Northern franchise!

 

[Halish Railway]

I wonder what scope there is to send the Huddersfield to Castleford service to Leeds, either via Castleford or non-stop from Normanton. I’d imagine that the second option would only require one additional unit and since it wouldn’t be the busiest service Northern shouldn’t have to much of a trouble sourcing the additional units.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder what scope there is to send the Huddersfield to Castleford service to Leeds, either via Castleford or non-stop from Normanton. I’d imagine that the second option would only require one additional unit and since it wouldn’t be the busiest service Northern shouldn’t have to much of a trouble sourcing the additional units.

No, send it to York - that would be much more handy

 

[YorksLad12]

It feels like a drop in the ocean, when you consider how large they are Sheffield and Leeds are, the fact that there's only one train per hour doing the twenty nine mile distance (as the crow flies) in under an hour, the fact that this one service is run by a Voyager with only two and a half or three and a half Standard Class carriages, and is already full of longer distance passengers (e.g. Birmingham to Newcastle) and is the only service from anywhere large in the Midlands to West Yorkshire (if you ignore Newark etc on the ECML) - it does feel like one of the weakest links between pairs of cities - a 195 feels like a

My "logic" was that there's no scope to terminate it at Barnsley (given the need to dwell for a few minutes before heading back south, and how busy Barnsley is), so, if you're going to go beyond Barnsley then Dodworth would allow a reversal since its single track (without going all the way to Penistone and occupying the single track for some time in each direction) - more a case of "there needs to be a second stopper per hour south of Barnsley" than anything specific to Dodworth to be honest

I can see a two-carriage 195 being quickly filled, as it will take passengers from both the XC and stopping services but I'd rather they started with two then upgraded to three (or more). At this point I wish it would just start! When I used to catch the stopping service at 0748 (the semi-fast being missed or cancelled) it came in as 2x2-car Pacers and split, and was quite full (not to standing) during the whole journey.

Sheffield to Dodworth is 31 minutes; 25 minutes to and a fast turnaround at Barnsley (not calling at Elsecar) would mean you'd need only one unit. But anyone wanting to use the level crossing might be unhappy! Sadly, no scope for a bay at Barnsley without taking away the layover space for buses at the station, which is a shame as I'd thought of a Huddersfield-Penistone service, if the track allows, into a north-facing bay. Topic for a different post.

Yes - keep the Castleford - Huddersfield service but I don't think that there are enough passengers to warrant a Castleford - Barnsley service - IMHO it's there because it was a convenient box ticking exercise in BR days (so that everywhere on the line could be served with one train per hour)

We need data on this; but the present Hallam Line route came about because of the desire to increase services between Leeds and Castleford and the desire to close Altofts. Two birds, one stone. You couldn't do Castleford-Barnsley direct before 1989-ish. Hm...

Yes, it partly replaced a Wakefield Kirkgate - Sheffield stopper (which was often cancelled in Northern Spirit days, one of the first services to get the chop when there were staffing/stock shortages) - I don't know how long this service had run before (whether it existed in BR days, or was a short lived "innovation" post-privatisation?)

It wasn't running in 1990 but it was by 1994. I didn't keep all three photocopier boxes full of timetables when they came my way, just a representative sample

No, send it to York - that would be much more handy

Again, we need more data on the demand; but we're also beholden to railway geography. One could, for example, suggest diverting the Dearne Valley Line services at Sherburn to run to Castleford, Pontefract Monkhill, curve south to Baghill and resume the former route; but there's no curve between Monkhill and Baghill. Or, extend one of the Knottingley terminators to Doncaster via Askern; except there's only two platforms now at Knottingley, and the turn south is behind/south of the current station and platforms. So running up to Leeds becomes the "easy" solution, and provides more services to Leeds - if a little confusing when waiting for the next train to Leeds from Huddersfield...

Which, going full circle, makes the investment in and second platform at Castleford more sensible.

 

[yorksrob]

I can see a two-carriage 195 being quickly filled, as it will take passengers from both the XC and stopping services but I'd rather they started with two then upgraded to three (or more). At this point I wish it would just start! When I used to catch the stopping service at 0748 (the semi-fast being missed or cancelled) it came in as 2x2-car Pacers and split, and was quite full (not to standing) during the whole journey.

Sheffield to Dodworth is 31 minutes; 25 minutes to and a fast turnaround at Barnsley (not calling at Elsecar) would mean you'd need only one unit. But anyone wanting to use the level crossing might be unhappy! Sadly, no scope for a bay at Barnsley without taking away the layover space for buses at the station, which is a shame as I'd thought of a Huddersfield-Penistone service, if the track allows, into a north-facing bay. Topic for a different post.


We need data on this; but the present Hallam Line route came about because of the desire to increase services between Leeds and Castleford and the desire to close Altofts. Two birds, one stone. You couldn't do Castleford-Barnsley direct before 1989-ish. Hm...


It wasn't running in 1990 but it was by 1994. I didn't keep all three photocopier boxes full of timetables when they came my way, just a representative sample



Again, we need more data on the demand; but we're also beholden to railway geography. One could, for example, suggest diverting the Dearne Valley Line services at Sherburn to run to Castleford, Pontefract Monkhill, curve south to Baghill and resume the former route; but there's no curve between Monkhill and Baghill. Or, extend one of the Knottingley terminators to Doncaster via Askern; except there's only two platforms now at Knottingley, and the turn south is behind/south of the current station and platforms. So running up to Leeds becomes the "easy" solution, and provides more services to Leeds - if a little confusing when waiting for the next train to Leeds from Huddersfield...

Which, going full circle, makes the investment in and second platform at Castleford more sensible.

The bonus with extending the Huddersfield - Castleford to York is that it gets a unit out of the way at Cass, it links the five towns area which is economically fairly deprived with a major economic centre and provides an extra direct train between Wakefield and York. It also gives Sherburn a better service.

 

[Iskra]

My "logic" was that there's no scope to terminate it at Barnsley (given the need to dwell for a few minutes before heading back south, and how busy Barnsley is), so, if you're going to go beyond Barnsley then Dodworth would allow a reversal since its single track (without going all the way to Penistone and occupying the single track for some time in each direction) - more a case of "there needs to be a second stopper per hour south of Barnsley" than anything specific to Dodworth to be honest



Yes - keep the Castleford - Huddersfield service but I don't think that there are enough passengers to warrant a Castleford - Barnsley service - IMHO it's there because it was a convenient box ticking exercise in BR days (so that everywhere on the line could be served with one train per hour)



Yes, it partly replaced a Wakefield Kirkgate - Sheffield stopper (which was often cancelled in Northern Spirit days, one of the first services to get the chop when there were staffing/stock shortages) - I don't know how long this service had run before (whether it existed in BR days, or was a short lived "innovation" post-privatisation?)

When the Nottingham service was mooted, I was expecting it to be an extension of the hourly Leeds service rather than in addition to it - one of the few times I've been pleasantly surprised by the Northern franchise!

There are (were? in pre-covid days) a small number of services that terminate at Barnsley, and they turnaround Southwards surprisingly quickly so it is possible to do this.

There seems to be very little demand from Castleford Southwards, maybe the odd person for Kirkgate but that's it. The train is flooded with Castleford commuters at Leeds, then it 2/3 empties at Castleford leaving the remainder for Darton and stations South before it starts filling up again at Barnsley. How many more would use it without the detour to Castleford is an interesting question, but it is an incredibly unattractive service at present.

Knottingley and Bentham line services were also very quick to be chopped in Northern Spirit days.

That is true, it was an unexpected positive.

A further issue is that any service improvements on the Hallam Line realistically require improvements to P17 at Leeds, unless Platform 0 is going to assist in this?

I can see a two-carriage 195 being quickly filled, as it will take passengers from both the XC and stopping services but I'd rather they started with two then upgraded to three (or more). At this point I wish it would just start! When I used to catch the stopping service at 0748 (the semi-fast being missed or cancelled) it came in as 2x2-car Pacers and split, and was quite full (not to standing) during the whole journey.

Sheffield to Dodworth is 31 minutes; 25 minutes to and a fast turnaround at Barnsley (not calling at Elsecar) would mean you'd need only one unit. But anyone wanting to use the level crossing might be unhappy! Sadly, no scope for a bay at Barnsley without taking away the layover space for buses at the station, which is a shame as I'd thought of a Huddersfield-Penistone service, if the track allows, into a north-facing bay. Topic for a different post.


We need data on this; but the present Hallam Line route came about because of the desire to increase services between Leeds and Castleford and the desire to close Altofts. Two birds, one stone. You couldn't do Castleford-Barnsley direct before 1989-ish. Hm...


It wasn't running in 1990 but it was by 1994. I didn't keep all three photocopier boxes full of timetables when they came my way, just a representative sample



Again, we need more data on the demand; but we're also beholden to railway geography. One could, for example, suggest diverting the Dearne Valley Line services at Sherburn to run to Castleford, Pontefract Monkhill, curve south to Baghill and resume the former route; but there's no curve between Monkhill and Baghill. Or, extend one of the Knottingley terminators to Doncaster via Askern; except there's only two platforms now at Knottingley, and the turn south is behind/south of the current station and platforms. So running up to Leeds becomes the "easy" solution, and provides more services to Leeds - if a little confusing when waiting for the next train to Leeds from Huddersfield...

Which, going full circle, makes the investment in and second platform at Castleford more sensible.

The level crossing South of Barnsley is out of use now.

Barnsley-Castleford can now be done via Kirkgate with one change due to the new Huddersfield-Castleford service and it doesn't seem to be a major flow (understatement), so now would be a good time to look into changing this detour as there is a passable alternative to the direct but deviating stopper, which inconveniences other passengers.

 

[YorksLad12]

The bonus with extending the Huddersfield - Castleford to York is that it gets a unit out of the way at Cass, it links the five towns area which is economically fairly deprived with a major economic centre and provides an extra direct train between Wakefield and York. It also gives Sherburn a better service.

It does (although with P2, less of a problem), and the Five Towsn area is more bus dependant than similar areas with rail lines running through them, I think. All those colliery lines... There was a forum suggestion (I wish 'd bookmarked it now) of a curve east of South Milford to Sherburn. That would give both stations a better service, to Leeds and York, by diverting the existing Leeds-York stopper that way

 

[_toommm_]

There is a little siding at Barnsley with a shunt signal for trains to move out of the way if they were to terminate there:

 

[Iskra]

There is a little siding at Barnsley with a shunt signal for trains to move out of the way if they were to terminate there:

View attachment 84244

While it does exist, it's not in good condition and probably needs some work doing to bring it back into regular use. I will try take a picture next time I'm changing trains there.

 

[_toommm_]

While it does exist, it's not in good condition and probably needs some work doing to bring it back into regular use. I will try take a picture next time I'm changing trains there.

I did wonder about that, as it’s somewhere I don’t pass through regularly anymore.

 

[tbtc]

It wasn't running in 1990 but it was by 1994. I didn't keep all three photocopier boxes full of timetables when they came my way, just a representative sample

Interesting - thanks

extend one of the Knottingley terminators to Doncaster via Askern; except there's only two platforms now at Knottingley, and the turn south is behind/south of the current station and platforms

That's an interesting idea - giving a link to the ECML sounds good (maybe replacing the Adwick extension of the Sheffield - Doncaster stopper - I do get a bit confused with all of the lightly used line in that neck of the woods though

The bonus with extending the Huddersfield - Castleford to York is that it gets a unit out of the way at Cass, it links the five towns area which is economically fairly deprived with a major economic centre and provides an extra direct train between Wakefield and York. It also gives Sherburn a better service.

I think that, if the answer is to be "an hourly Castleford - York service" then it'd make more sense IMHO to have it as an extension of the Sheffield - Barnsley - Castleford service, since Huddersfield already gets four trains per hour to York (which will overtake a "via Castleford" service)

There are (were? in pre-covid days) a small number of services that terminate at Barnsley, and they turnaround Southwards surprisingly quickly so it is possible to do this

Ah, I wasn't aware of that (since the days when Midland Mainline used to terminate at Barnsley!)

Knottingley and Bentham line services were also very quick to be chopped in Northern Spirit days.

I remember the days when they just gave up on the Knottingley services (when "Leeds First" was happening) - the railway has certainly got a lot better than in those days!

 

[YorksLad12]

The answer to the OP's question of what improvements we would make seems to be "remove the all-stops service"

It's all moot until after the TPE upgrades, as paths will be needed for that (and the Hudds-Cas service I'd assume would be temporarily withdrawn), but we seem to be suggesting (some of this suggested by @tbtc above):

Pontefract Line: as now
1. 1tph Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley(-Goole).
2. 1tph Leeds-Westgate-Kirkgate-Monkhill-Knottingley.

Huddersfield Line: as now
3. 1 tph (Somewhere-)Castleford-Kirkgate-Huddersfield.

Hallam Line
4. 1tph semi-fast Leeds-Normanton-Kirkgate-Barnsley-Meadowhall-Sheffield(-Lincoln).
5. 1tph semi-fast Leeds-Kirkgate-Darton-Barnsley-Meadowhall-Sheffield(-Nottingham, until the new via Westgate service starts).
6. 1tph Sheffield-all stops to Barnsley(-Dodworth/Penistone/Kirkgate/somewhere).

That leaves us with the second Leeds-Woodlesford-Castleford path, which could be a shuttle or continue to Huddersfield or Knottingley. Not that Knottingley needs 3tph to Leeds... perhaps that could be the Cas-York service @yorksrob wants?

 

[yorksrob]

The answer to the OP's question of what improvements we would make seems to be "remove the all-stops service"

It's all moot until after the TPE upgrades, as paths will be needed for that (and the Hudds-Cas service I'd assume would be temporarily withdrawn), but we seem to be suggesting (some of this suggested by @tbtc above):

Pontefract Line: as now
1. 1tph Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley(-Goole).
2. 1tph Leeds-Westgate-Kirkgate-Monkhill-Knottingley.

Huddersfield Line: as now
3. 1 tph (Somewhere-)Castleford-Kirkgate-Huddersfield.

Hallam Line
4. 1tph semi-fast Leeds-Normanton-Kirkgate-Barnsley-Meadowhall-Sheffield(-Lincoln).
5. 1tph semi-fast Leeds-Kirkgate-Darton-Barnsley-Meadowhall-Sheffield(-Nottingham, until the new via Westgate service starts).
6. 1tph Sheffield-all stops to Barnsley(-Dodworth/Penistone/Kirkgate/somewhere).

That leaves us with the second Leeds-Woodlesford-Castleford path, which could be a shuttle or continue to Huddersfield or Knottingley. Not that Knottingley needs 3tph to Leeds... perhaps that could be the Cas-York service @yorksrob wants?

Alas, it wouldn't suffice for me as I'm aiming for Normanton - York direct !

 

[billio]

Alas, it wouldn't suffice for me as I'm aiming for Normanton - York direct !

Which would make a great deal of sense. At some point squeezing more an more trains through Leeds willl prove impossible and an alternative route would take some of the pressure off as well as offering new journey opportunities. Given that much of the infrastructure is already in place, I would just get on with it. Which particular parts of the rail industry are sitting in the way of making this happen ?