UK face coverings discussion

[david1212]

Surprised that this hasn't been brought up in here yet:

Coronavirus: Doctors call for mandatory masks in offices and outdoors in new wish list

Doctors accuse the government of "letting down its guard" and say "inconsistent" messaging has played a part in the second wave.

news.sky.com

Masks should be mandatory indoors and outdoors where two-metre social distancing is not possible, doctors have said.

''''''

The BMA's recommendations include:

Modifying the current "Rule of Six" with the rule that only two households can meet, and those should not exceed six people, ideally outdoors rather than indoors
Making the wearing of face masks mandatory in all offices and working environments, unless you are working alone
Making people wear masks in all outdoor settings where two-metre social distancing is not possible
Providing financial support to businesses, retail and hospitality settings to enable them to make premises COVID secure and provide clear rules on what "COVID secure" means
Providing medical grade masks, free of charge, to those who are over 60 or in a vulnerable group, as recommended by the World Health Organisation
Providing masks free of charge to those who are exempt from prescription charges and also at the entrance of all public settings if a person has not brought one
Adding more functionality to the NHS Test and Trace app to give people more detailed information on infection rates in their area including actual figures of rates of infection and trends

Making the wearing of face masks mandatory in all offices and working environments, unless you are working alone

How could this be more than a recommendation as for police to enter to check compliance would they not require a warrant?

Also working alone needs defining. If in your own 2m x 2m broom cupboard clearly alone but what about two people at opposite ends of the same area which is say 5m x 20m. What about Kwik-Fit, National Tyres etc where both the staff will mostly be rather more than 2m apart and doors are always open.

Another issue is all who wear glasses either for vision correction or safety. I manage with half fogged up lenses around shops but could not for work.

Going OT I find the worst shop areas are chilled and frozen aisles so do wonder generally how I will cope when winter arrives, the damp as much as the cold.

Making people wear masks in all outdoor settings where two-metre social distancing is not possible

Following on from the above I aim to walk down streets keep 2m distance or at least right one side of the pavement but many others do not. Again with glasses I would consider it unsafe due to tripping, not having a full view when crossing road etc. The key point here is close contact with any one person is momentary. Being forced into a queue where less than 2m distancing so close to the same people for several minutes is different.

 

[Richard Scott]

Making the wearing of face masks mandatory in all offices and working environments, unless you are working alone

How could this be more than a recommendation as for police to enter to check compliance would they not require a warrant?

Also working alone needs defining. If in your own 2m x 2m broom cupboard clearly alone but what about two people at opposite ends of the same area which is say 5m x 20m. What about Kwik-Fit, National Tyres etc where both the staff will mostly be rather more than 2m apart and doors are always open.

Another issue is all who wear glasses either for vision correction or safety. I manage with half fogged up lenses around shops but could not for work.

Going OT I find the worst shop areas are chilled and frozen aisles so do wonder generally how I will cope when winter arrives, the damp as much as the cold.

Making people wear masks in all outdoor settings where two-metre social distancing is not possible

Following on from the above I aim to walk down streets keep 2m distance or at least right one side of the pavement but many others do not. Again with glasses I would consider it unsafe due to tripping, not having a full view when crossing road etc. The key point here is close contact with any one person is momentary. Being forced into a queue where less than 2m distancing so close to the same people for several minutes is different.

Where's the science behind this? Oh silly me, there isn't any. Stupid of me to think that this might actually serve a purpose.

 

[kristiang85]

I was reading in the Guardian that the Czech republic is having a bad second wave. They were one of the least badly hit earlier in the year and indeed had compulsory face coverings including outside. I wonder if some of the clamour for masks in this country is from people looking there earlier in the year and thinking that was the way to beat the virus?

They had a fairly total lockdown right at the start, so now they've loosened up, the virus is hitting. It supports the theories that a) lockdowns just delay the inevitable, and screw your country up in the process for no reason and b) that here immunity is the way forward (given Sweden still has no hint of increases in actual health emergencies from COVID).

 

[yorkie]

I know the pro-mask lobotomists will dismiss this, but:

"Don't make assumptions about people who are not wearing masks"

HELEN JONES from the York Disability Forum discusses the wearing of face masks and how not everyone can cover up in public

www.yorkpress.co.uk

"Previously, they often wouldn’t let on to their friends that they had hearing difficulties and would get by with lip-reading.

"Now with face masks, they have to tell their friends, and in some cases, they are finding this really hard.

"We've tried visors, but some deaf children say they are just as bad - people get glare off them, so they can’t lip read in the same way, and they distort the sound.."

The mandating of masks really is very bad for many disabled people; it should not go on for much longer. We cannot continue to make things difficult for them.

And also:

...This attitude is resulting in people being verbally abused in shops when they don’t wear a face covering, even though there is no way to tell if someone is exempt just from looking at them....

I caught a train Guard going up to someone and aggressively asking why they are not wearing a mask; they didn't like it when I challenged their behaviour. Well, tough. If I see someone being verbally abused, intimidated, mistreated, I will defend them.

Surprised that this hasn't been brought up in here yet:

Coronavirus: Doctors call for mandatory masks in offices and outdoors in new wish list

Doctors accuse the government of "letting down its guard" and say "inconsistent" messaging has played a part in the second wave.

news.sky.com

The BMA are an extremist union who are incapable of seeing the bigger picture. I view them with the contempt they deserve.

Most unions have utterly absurd views on Covid19, and I very much include my own union in that. I have shared my concerns with my Union rep and threatened to leave the Union if things get any worse. I hope any sensible member of the BMA makes their feelings known too.

 

[StationTown]

The BMA are an extremist union who are incapable of seeing the bigger picture. I view them with the contempt they deserve.

In what way are they extremist?

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I remind posters that we are discussing face coverings on this thread.

I have split off some posts that were discussing the mental health issues surrounding COVID restrictions to a new thread which can be found here:

Are COVID restrictions ignoring mental health issues?

Moderator note: posts #1 - #10 originally in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/uk-face-coverings-discussion.206902/ In what way are they extremist? Do they consider the impact on mental health, deprivation, loss of hope, loss of livelihoods? Do they recognise the huge impact...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[MrTurbostar170]

Southeastern guard was insisting you need an "exemption certificate" this morning, apparently for the police, who weren't even present on that particular service. Stood my ground and he eventually walked off.

On way back BTP were present at Ashford, didn't say a word to me.

 

[MikeWM]

Southeastern guard was insisting you need an "exemption certificate" this morning, apparently for the police, who weren't even present on that particular service. Stood my ground and he eventually walked off.

On way back BTP were present at Ashford, didn't say a word to me.

Does Ashford win the award for 'most signs telling you to wear a mask?' When I was there a couple of weeks ago, I must have encountered at least 20 or 30 of them between the main gateline and the far platform for the Eastbourne service. I know we're all used to seeing far too many bossy signs nowadays, but that seemed excessive even by current standards.

 

[Yew]

I'm glad we've been wearing all of these masks, it's remarkable how cases haven't increased since we started. - Surely this shows how futile the whole endeavour is.

 

[DustyBin]

I was directed to this by somebody on another forum:

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

Pandemic Influenza—Personal Protective Measures

wwwnc.cdc.gov

There were 3 influenza pandemics in the 20th century, and there has been 1 so far in the 21st century. Local, national, and international health authorities regularly update their plans for mitigating the next influenza pandemic in light of the latest available evidence on the effectiveness of various control measures in reducing transmission. Here, we review the evidence base on the effectiveness of nonpharmaceutical personal protective measures and environmental hygiene measures in nonhealthcare settings and discuss their potential inclusion in pandemic plans. Although mechanistic studies support the potential effect of hand hygiene or face masks, evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza. We similarly found limited evidence on the effectiveness of improved hygiene and environmental cleaning. We identified several major knowledge gaps requiring further research, most fundamentally an improved characterization of the modes of person-to-person transmission.

It supports the argument that mask wearing, in it’s mandated form at least, is a waste of time.

I’ll ask again; if the government really believe masks to be effective, why are we allowed to wear pieces of old clothes, scarves and masks with valves in them? Surely it would be a very easy no-cost ‘win’ to eliminate these ineffective face coverings?

 

[island]

Because they make people feel safer and therefore more likely to go out and spend money and prop up the economy.

 

[kristiang85]

Because they make people feel safer and therefore more likely to go out and spend money and prop up the economy.

I can see this being the government's belief. But I also know there are many who either see mask wearing as a reason to believe it isn't save, or indeed they just find it unpleasant so don't go out - so I don't think overall it makes much difference.

 

[Domh245]

I must say that I'm very disappointed, yet not at all surprised to see the government getting things the wrong way round in the local alert (/tier) guidance

Under each alert level is the following (or variant of):

You must:

• wear a face covering in those areas where this is mandated

You should continue to:

• follow social distancing rules
• work from home where you can effectively do so
• when travelling, plan ahead or avoid busy times and routes. Walk or cycle if you can

At the very least "follow social distancing rules" should be under must, given as that's far more effective at reducing transmission than any face covering.

 

[Yew]

At the very least "follow social distancing rules" should be under must, given as that's far more effective at reducing transmission than any face covering.

Indeed, that's the measure that actually has some real effect.

 

[island]

It looks as though “must” represents legal obligations and “should” represents guidance. They have historically been criticized for blurring the lines between these.

 

[Huntergreed]

I had to phone my asthma nurse this morning due to my chest feeling quite tight. She informed me that this can quite possibly be due to wearing a mask and that she's had quite a few cases of people with mild asthma getting worse due to wearing a mask frequently and for long periods of time. I shall now no longer be wearing a mask in any setting and will be making full use of my exemption rather than trying to wear some of the time as I did before.

 

[kristiang85]

I had to phone my asthma nurse this morning due to my chest feeling quite tight. She informed me that this can quite possibly be due to wearing a mask and that she's had quite a few cases of people with mild asthma getting worse due to wearing a mask frequently and for long periods of time. I shall now no longer be wearing a mask in any setting and will be making full use of my exemption rather than trying to wear some of the time as I did before.

I realise now I seem to cough a bit after wearing a mask. I must be getting fibres in my throat or something, because it's only after periods of wearing it I seem to get the irritation.

I hope this doesn't mean I'm filling up my lungs with synthetic fibres...

 

[trebor79]

I realise now I seem to cough a bit after wearing a mask. I must be getting fibres in my throat or something, because it's only after periods of wearing it I seem to get the irritation.

I hope this doesn't mean I'm filling up my lungs with synthetic fibres...

Yep, I definitely get something that feels a mild chest infection if I wear a mask for more than 20 minutes or so.
I have only ever attempted to use cotton masks.

 

[MikeWM]

I wore a 'mask' (cloth) for an hour or so for a hospital appointment last week - first time I've put one on since July. Yes, I could have claimed exemption and seen what happened, but I thought it fair enough to see the effects and therefore if I'm still legitimately exempt.

I felt pretty awful for the rest of the day. Shallower than usual breathing, some coughing and wheezing, and a nasty headache.

I don't intend to try again!

 

[yorkie]

"It's people like you who spread coronavirus": Disabled mum's bus ordeal

Bus driver 'accused mum of taking the mick' - before abandoning all his passengers

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

A disabled mum who says she is exempt from wearing a mask claims a bus driver shouted at her for 'spreading coronavirus' - before abandoning his passengers when the row escalated.

Karrine, 27, has epilepsy and can suffer up to two seizures a week as a result. During the pandemic, she has found that wearing a mask causes her distress and can bring on her seizures.


As a result, Karrine says she has attained mask-wearing exemption from her doctor and has a form to prove it.

It's a difficult time for all front line workers, including bus drivers who risk their health every day to do their jobs, often under difficult conditions.

But on her journey from Heywood to Piccadilly on Monday, Karrine claims a bus driver demanded details of her condition - before telling her 'it's people like you who spread coronavirus'.

Because there were other passengers on the bus not wearing masks, Karrine suggested the driver was discriminating against her - prompting him to demand she get off.


When Karrine refused and started filming him, she says the driver abandoned a bus-full of passengers to sit at a bus stop opposite.

Diamond Bus North West have told the Manchester Evening News they are investigating the alleged incident.

Given how many are out of work, I hope the driver is sacked and replaced with any of the people who are desperate to work.

Disabled man who can't wear a mask says he was made to face the wall on a train

Neil Templeton is exempt from wearing a mask - but he says his 'humiliation' on a train highlights the challenges of hidden disabilities

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

So when, he claims, a conductor on an Avanti West Coast train from London to Manchester Piccadilly reprimanded him in front of other passengers for failing to wear a mask and ordered him to 'face the wall', he says it left him feeling humiliated and depressed. Neil was wearing a sunflower lanyard at the time, intended to signify his hidden disability.

There are some downright nasty Avanti Guards around (a minority, but I know several people who have had encountered them); I'd say I hope he gets sacked but I also know he won't, so there is no point hoping for it.

Avanti West Coast, who provide sunflower lanyards to be worn by people with hidden disabilities, and train staff on what they mean, have said they are investigating his complaint.

Just a ticking off, I bet. They won't dare take appropriate action for fear of reprisals from the Unions.

 

[Richard Scott]

"It's people like you who spread coronavirus": Disabled mum's bus ordeal

Bus driver 'accused mum of taking the mick' - before abandoning all his passengers

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Given how many are out of work, I hope the driver is sacked and replaced with any of the people who are desperate to work.

Disabled man who can't wear a mask says he was made to face the wall on a train

Neil Templeton is exempt from wearing a mask - but he says his 'humiliation' on a train highlights the challenges of hidden disabilities

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

There are some downright nasty Avanti Guards around (a minority, but I know several people who have had encountered them); I'd say I hope he gets sacked but I also know he won't, so there is no point hoping for it.

I'm afraid the comment of bus drivers risking their health in the article is really taking things too far. Agree with your comments.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I must say that I'm very disappointed, yet not at all surprised to see the government getting things the wrong way round in the local alert (/tier) guidance

Under each alert level is the following (or variant of):



At the very least "follow social distancing rules" should be under must, given as that's far more effective at reducing transmission than any face covering.

The order of importance in which those measures are listed is music to the ears of those who believe the mandating of masks was never about effectiveness, but about control!
Social distancing should be listed first, and as you say, under the heading ‘must’.

I'm afraid the comment of bus drivers risking their health in the article is really taking things too far. Agree with your comments.

I have a colleague who moaned about a friend of mine not observing a full 2m distance when queuing for service in the staff restaurant, despite the moaner having been stood next to a manager, sharing some ‘humourous’ clip on YouTube just minutes earlier.
She exploded at him with ‘people like you should stay at home and hide under the bed if you feel THAT unsafe!!’
I feel this bus driver needs a similar lecture, particularly if he was behind a plastic shield. He should be sacked for humiliating this woman. I would certainly have intervened on her behalf

 

[david1212]

Because they make people feel safer and therefore more likely to go out and spend money and prop up the economy.

NO !!

A mask and misted up glasses are not pleasant, the latter will be worse for the next few months.

Since face coverings in shops became mandatory I have cut my shop visits to a minimum. Once a week for my main shop then any others only when something becomes essential. I get in and out as quick as possible, no browsing and the possibility of spontaneous purchases.

Also I have not been on any public transport this year. Without the masks I would have had a few trips after essential travel only was ended. Hence loss to both transport and shops, hospitality etc where I would have visited.

 

[bramling]

"It's people like you who spread coronavirus": Disabled mum's bus ordeal

Bus driver 'accused mum of taking the mick' - before abandoning all his passengers

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Given how many are out of work, I hope the driver is sacked and replaced with any of the people who are desperate to work.

Disabled man who can't wear a mask says he was made to face the wall on a train

Neil Templeton is exempt from wearing a mask - but he says his 'humiliation' on a train highlights the challenges of hidden disabilities

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

There are some downright nasty Avanti Guards around (a minority, but I know several people who have had encountered them); I'd say I hope he gets sacked but I also know he won't, so there is no point hoping for it.


Just a ticking off, I bet. They won't dare take appropriate action for fear of reprisals from the Unions.

One could put it another way, which is that if some guards are going to conduct themselves in this way then to me it’s a good advert for DOO.

I must admit I’m rather glad my local TOC is DOO at the moment, as it’s been refreshingly normal compared to some of the horror stories we read on here.

I’ve seen mask obsessives parading up and down very lightly loaded trains looking to harass people not in masks, so it isn’t just guards doing this but some members of the public. In either case it’s completely unacceptable - I’m waiting to encounter one on my home territory, who will experience an awakening.

 

[43066]

One could put it another way, which is that if some guards are going to conduct themselves in this way then to me it’s a good advert for DOO.

I must admit I’m rather glad my local TOC is DOO at the moment, as it’s been refreshingly normal compared to some of the horror stories we read on here.

That’s an understandable sentiment given what we have read on here. Sadly, as is so often the case, it’s a small minority who are letting their more professional colleagues down.

It’s really very simple. Train crew just need to abide by the policies of their employers, as endorsed by their unions. Usually that means making professional announcements regarding masks, preferably mentioning exemptions, and accepting said exemptions at face value. Indulging their own prejudices by inventing additional rules, demanding that people show fictitious exemption certificates etc. is unacceptable and should be called out.

I’ve seen mask obsessives parading up and down very lightly loaded trains looking to harass people not in masks, so it isn’t just guards doing this but some members of the public. In either case it’s completely unacceptable - I’m waiting to encounter one on my home territory, who will experience an awakening.

I wonder if this kind of thing is happening outside London? I can’t say I’ve had any kind of overt challenge from a member of the public, despite travelling on trains in the London area daily, and never once wearing a covering.

Anyone challenging me will be rebuffed in no uncertain terms!

 

[furlong]

CDC Study Finds Overwhelming Majority Of People Getting Coronavirus Wore Masks

A study conducted in the United States in July found that when they compared 154 “case-patients,” who tested positive for COVID-19, to a control group of 160 participants from the same health care facility who were symptomatic but tested negative, over 70 percent of the case-patients were contaminated with the virus and fell ill despite “always” wearing a mask.
...
The study also demonstrates that under 4 percent of the case-patients became sick with the virus even though they “never” wore a mask or face covering.

So vastly more people who said they always wear masks caught the virus than people who said they never wore them, leading some people to suggest you're more at risk wearing one than not wearing one.

(Of course, that's fallacious reasoning like most of the other claims circulating for or against masks.)

 

[Bantamzen]

CDC Study Finds Overwhelming Majority Of People Getting Coronavirus Wore Masks



So vastly more people who said they always wear masks caught the virus than people who said they never wore them, leading some people to suggest you're more at risk wearing one than not wearing one.

(Of course, that's fallacious reasoning like most of the other claims circulating for or against masks.)

To be fair masks are ordered on the basis that they protect others not yourself. Of course any study that shows potentially that masks don't offer protection in public environments does then beg the question are they as equally ineffective in reducing spread? With the mandate that people with symptoms stay at home and isolate, we are effectively telling people to wear masks for when they are not sick & almost certainly not carrying / spreading the virus, I think more evidence is going to be needed to justify their continued use.

 

[Yew]

To be fair masks are ordered on the basis that they protect others not yourself. Of course any study that shows potentially that masks don't offer protection in public environments does then beg the question are they as equally ineffective in reducing spread? With the mandate that people with symptoms stay at home and isolate, we are effectively telling people to wear masks for when they are not sick & almost certainly not carrying / spreading the virus, I think more evidence is going to be needed to justify their continued use.

I think the medical term is "number needed to treat" the number of people who need to wear dubiously effective masks to stop one case (never mind death). For masks is it so phenomenally high, that if it were a drug with the costs and side effects that we see, it would never be approved.

 

[Jamesrob637]

NO !!

A mask and misted up glasses are not pleasant, the latter will be worse for the next few months.

Since face coverings in shops became mandatory I have cut my shop visits to a minimum. Once a week for my main shop then any others only when something becomes essential. I get in and out as quick as possible, no browsing and the possibility of spontaneous purchases.

Also I have not been on any public transport this year. Without the masks I would have had a few trips after essential travel only was ended. Hence loss to both transport and shops, hospitality etc where I would have visited.

Knowing us Brits, just as many will wear masks if the status changes to "optional but recommended"

Which is where I would have put things were I in charge.

 

[jumble]

As face coverings are now mandatory in most public indoor settings from today in most of the UK, this thread has been set up to continue the general discussion of this issue.

thanks

I am posting an email I sent to a pub co today as I cannot believe what I witnessed

Hi

I visited one of your pubs which I am not going to identify as I do not want to cause trouble for any individual as I imagine they were acting under the instructions of management

I was astonished to witness the following

A party of 4 came in none of whom were wearing masks.

The bar person asked if they had any and upon the party saying no they were sent packing.

The party offered to sit outside and be served at the table there but were still told this was not acceptable and they were sent away like naughty children



Contrast this with another pub I went to recently where my companion did not have a mask

The barperson simply produced a complimentary paper one ( which cost the business 15 pence or so) and we got on with having a pleasant drink.

( Tesco do the same and sell you a mask if you do not have one)



I struggle to understand why any business sector which is really struggling would send customers away rather than either giving away or even selling a mask as I imagine those customers will not be in any hurry to return.



I hope this has been valuable feedback as a really simple way to improve your profitability and viability