UK face coverings discussion

[C J Snarzell]

Who told you that?

I was thinking about the public transport scenario. Merseyrail are threatening huge fines for people not wearing a face mask on their carriages. If someone is about to be issued with a fine, isn't there some kind of onus on them to show proof of why they don't need to wear a mask if they have a medical condition?

For years, there was a similar scenario with non wearing of seat belts. If there was a genuine reason for not wearing one, and it was medical related, the driver had to show the police a medical note or some sort of valid document so they could be excused.

CJ

 

[Richard Scott]

I was thinking about the public transport scenario. Merseyrail are threatening huge fines for people not wearing a face mask on their carriages. If someone is about to be issued with a fine, isn't there some kind of onus on them to show proof of why they don't need to wear a mask if they have a medical condition?

For years, there was a similar scenario with non wearing of seat belts. If there was a genuine reason for not wearing one, and it was medical related, the driver had to show the police a medical note or some sort of valid document so they could be excused.

CJ

No, not currently.

 

[trebor79]

Had some BTP jobsworths at Faygate station tell me to put my mask on. This is the least used station in West Sussex with only 20 odd people per day The next train was in 30 minutes.

You did point out to them that there is no legal requirement for you to do so on an open air platform?

I was thinking about the public transport scenario. Merseyrail are threatening huge fines for people not wearing a face mask on their carriages. If someone is about to be issued with a fine, isn't there some kind of onus on them to show proof of why they don't need to wear a mask if they have a medical condition?

No, that isn't how the legislation has been written. If you say you are exempt, you are de facto exempt. There is no requirement in the legislation for you to provide proof, nor any provision for it to be demanded. The accompanying guidance explicitly states that you should not be exprct d to carry or provide proof.

For years, there was a similar scenario with non wearing of seat belts. If there was a genuine reason for not wearing one, and it was medical related, the driver had to show the police a medical note or some sort of valid document so they could be excused.

Yes that's correct, the legislation in that case dose make that the case. The face mask legislation doesn't.

 

[bramling]

Had some BTP jobsworths at Faygate station tell me to put my mask on. This is the least used station in West Sussex with only 20 odd people per day The next train was in 30 minutes.

Nice to know BTP are being wisely deployed...

What on earth were BTP doing at Faygate of all places?

 

[island]

You did point out to them that there is no legal requirement for you to do so on an open air platform?

It’s a bit problematic because once a BTP officer has told you to put on a mask, even if you’re outdoors, you’ll be at risk of breaking railway byelaw 12 if you don’t, and could end up being removed from the railway.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

It’s a bit problematic because once a BTP officer has told you to put on a mask, even if you’re outdoors, you’ll be at risk of breaking railway byelaw 12 if you don’t, and could end up being removed from the railway.

If a BTP officer tries to make his own laws up you should take his number and report him to his superiors.

 

[island]

If a BTP officer tries to make his own laws up you should take his number and report him to his superiors.

Even if that was ”making his own laws up”, which it isn’t, you can take all the numbers you want but you’re still unable to travel, facing a court date, and possibly arrested.

As the Americans say, you can beat the rap but you can’t beat the ride.

 

[GodAtum]

Even if that was ”making his own laws up”, which it isn’t, you can take all the numbers you want but you’re still unable to travel, facing a court date, and possibly arrested.

As the Americans say, you can beat the rap but you can’t beat the ride.

Is bylaw 12 an arrestable offence then?

 

[Dave91131]

It’s a bit problematic because once a BTP officer has told you to put on a mask, even if you’re outdoors, you’ll be at risk of breaking railway byelaw 12 if you don’t, and could end up being removed from the railway.

Even if the person being requested to wear a mask lays claim to one or more of the government specified exemptions?

 

[C J Snarzell]

There's was a recent incident in Liverpool where a BTP officer ended up in a scuffle with a chap on board a stationary Merseyrail train carriage - he was not wearing a mask. The video was published on the Liverpool Echo at the time.

The chap was what I would describe as 'anti-police' anyway but he was refusing point blank to comply with face coverings stating he was medically excempt.

The officer then asked for his personal details and he refused yet again stating Data Protection laws. The cop tried then to politely remove the chap off the train, but he was not budging and an ensuring fight broke out.

Clearly if you don't have to provide proof of a medical condition then how can the fines be legally enforced then?

CJ

 

[island]

Is bylaw 12 an arrestable offence then?

All offences are arrestable offences in England and Wales, though as ever one’s level of co-operation with the police is a strong factor in whether an arrest is necessary.

Even if the person being requested to wear a mask lays claim to one or more of the government specified exemptions?

Byelaw 12 (2) requires you to comply with safety instructions issued by an authorised person unless you have good cause not to. What is a good cause will depend upon the circumstances; guidance issued by the government could be persuasive.

That all only matters after the fact, however. If you don’t comply with the police, you could end up being removed from the railway, reported for prosecution, or arrested, inconveniences with which the average person will probably want to do without.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Even if that was ”making his own laws up”, which it isn’t, you can take all the numbers you want but you’re still unable to travel, facing a court date, and possibly arrested.

As the Americans say, you can beat the rap but you can’t beat the ride.

There is no law that requires you to wear a mask in outdoor areas of stations such as platforms so yes, any BTP officer ordering you to do so would be making his own laws up.

 

[island]

There is no law that requires you to wear a mask in outdoor areas of stations such as platforms so yes, any BTP officer ordering you to do so would be making his own laws up.

You may wish to reread railway byelaw 12.

As we’re going round in circles I won’t be engaging further on this point.

 

[trebor79]

You may wish to reread railway byelaw 12.

If the office cited bylaw 12 I'd want to know how putting a bit of cloth over my face constitutes a safety instruction.
The bylaw clearly inst intended to be used in that way.
Yes, I'd refuse, risk arrest and be quick certain of my case if they were daft enough to take it to court.

 

[43066]

Clearly if you don't have to provide proof of a medical condition then how can the fines be legally enforced then?

Pretty much only if you state to a police officer (or revenue enforcement officer) that you are refusing to wear a covering when required, and that you do not have a reasonable excuse or exemption. That’s why so few penalty notices/prosecutions have taken place.

 

[35B]

You may wish to reread railway byelaw 12.

As we’re going round in circles I won’t be engaging further on this point.

The phrase ”without good cause” crops up in the bylaw; I would have thought that acting within the law would constitute good cause if a policeman were to try to act in this way.

One does not have to oppose mask wearing or an interest in tinfoil hats to have legitimate concerns about the overuse of police powers in this area.

 

[GodAtum]

I've noticed it taking more time to board buses. You see a lot of people before have faff around in their wallets/purses for their ticket/money. Now they still do that AND faff around putting on a mask

 

[Reliablebeam]

Sat in a coffee shop in Holborn. Very surprised at the low compliance level. Coffee shop across the road and the resteraunt exactly the same. There is though the spectacle of a few Italians masked up and drinking coffee through a straw passed under the mask.

 

[bramling]

Sat in a coffee shop in Holborn. Very surprised at the low compliance level. Coffee shop across the road and the resteraunt exactly the same. There is though the spectacle of a few Italians masked up and drinking coffee through a straw passed under the mask.

Compliance (*) on the Underground quite low today as well. I'd say 50-75% in masks, and a good proportion of those round the chin.

I see the Euston lilac brigade is still going strong since I was last in London. Instead of all crowding round the escalators, they've now spread out so that entering the Underground one will pass a succession of them. I got an eyeballing which I presume was associating with no mask, I think he was about to say something but I gave him a *really* evil stare back and he seemed to back off. I really do not see the point of these people.

(* we need to be careful about the term compliance, as of course a proportion of those not in masks will be exempt, so compliance isn't really the right term. It's okay for here as everyone understands, but I would be very careful on for example my local facebook!).

 

[birchesgreen]

Quite a strong BTP presence at Derby today (all the more visible as the station wasn't that busy). Everyone was face covered, even in the open air.

 

[Richard Scott]

Went into a Spar shop today, they had a rather abrupt 'no face mask no entry' message. I politely pointed out to the lady serving that wasn't keen in this message as doesn't mention exemptions and that my mother is exempt. She said that it would be changed. I hope it is but willing to bet it isn't.

 

[LowLevel]

Quite a strong BTP presence at Derby today (all the more visible as the station wasn't that busy). Everyone was face covered, even in the open air.

There is a strong police presence all over the railway at the minute, both Home Office and BTP, uniformed and plain clothed. Someone appears to have had enough of the County Lines drug runners and they're picking them off left right and centre while they're very obvious.

 

[trainophile]

Went into a Spar shop today, they had a rather abrupt 'no face mask no entry' message. I politely pointed bout to the last serving that wasn't keen in this message as doesn't mention exemptions and that my mother is exempt. She said that it would be changed. I hope it is but willing to bet it isn't.

Same sign on the window of a charity shop I went in today. They must have produced a job lot and sold them off on eBay.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Compliance (*) on the Underground quite low today as well. I'd say 50-75% in masks, and a good proportion of those round the chin.

I see the Euston lilac brigade is still going strong since I was last in London. Instead of all crowding round the escalators, they've now spread out so that entering the Underground one will pass a succession of them. I got an eyeballing which I presume was associating with no mask, I think he was about to say something but I gave him a *really* evil stare back and he seemed to back off. I really do not see the point of these people.

(* we need to be careful about the term compliance, as of course a proportion of those not in masks will be exempt, so compliance isn't really the right term. It's okay for here as everyone understands, but I would be very careful on for example my local facebook!).

Point well made re: compliance!

I also noticed on the tube it was a bit lowered today. Quite a few had the chin ornament theme going on or were carrying them in case they were challenged!!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Surprised that this hasn't been brought up in here yet:

Coronavirus: Doctors call for mandatory masks in offices and outdoors in new wish list

Doctors accuse the government of "letting down its guard" and say "inconsistent" messaging has played a part in the second wave.

news.sky.com

Masks should be mandatory indoors and outdoors where two-metre social distancing is not possible, doctors have said.

Publishing a wish list of recommendations for ministers, the British Medical Association (BMA) accused the government of "letting down its guard" and said "inconsistent" messaging since the nationwide lockdown was lifted had played a part in the resurgence of the virus.

Chairman of the doctors' trade union body, Dr Chaand Nagpaul, said: "We are having to swallow a very bitter pill of the infection continuing to spread at a perilous rate.

"Stronger measures brought in now could be a far sweeter pill in the long run for far more people."

The BMA's recommendations include:

Modifying the current "Rule of Six" with the rule that only two households can meet, and those should not exceed six people, ideally outdoors rather than indoors
Making the wearing of face masks mandatory in all offices and working environments, unless you are working alone
Making people wear masks in all outdoor settings where two-metre social distancing is not possible
Providing financial support to businesses, retail and hospitality settings to enable them to make premises COVID secure and provide clear rules on what "COVID secure" means
Providing medical grade masks, free of charge, to those who are over 60 or in a vulnerable group, as recommended by the World Health Organisation
Providing masks free of charge to those who are exempt from prescription charges and also at the entrance of all public settings if a person has not brought one
Adding more functionality to the NHS Test and Trace app to give people more detailed information on infection rates in their area including actual figures of rates of infection and trends

 

[bramling]

Surprised that this hasn't been brought up in here yet:

Coronavirus: Doctors call for mandatory masks in offices and outdoors in new wish list

Doctors accuse the government of "letting down its guard" and say "inconsistent" messaging has played a part in the second wave.

news.sky.com

A policy of “you must put a mask on if you cannot avoid getting within 2 metres of someone else” would have some element of sense (though I realise it might be difficult to enforce).

This would cut out a lot of the maskophile types who will happily go walking down a lightly loaded train to look for someone to harass.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Outside is unnecessary. If that happens, I am likely to call on an exemption (asthma). Which, to prevent people doubting its credibility, would probably mean not wearing one anywhere and wearing e.g. a sunflower lanyard.

I suspect a lot of others would be pouring through their medical records looking for something suitable if such a completely unnecessary move was made. There is almost no evidence of outdoor spread whatsoever.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Outside is unnecessary. If that happens, I am likely to call on an exemption (asthma). Which, to prevent people doubting its credibility, would probably mean not wearing one anywhere and wearing e.g. a sunflower lanyard.

I suspect a lot of others would be pouring through their medical records looking for something suitable if such a completely unnecessary move was made. There is almost no evidence of outdoor spread whatsoever.

I agree with you. With maybe the exception of crowded spaces where social distancing is impossible, masks are useless outside.

 

[birchesgreen]

I was reading in the Guardian that the Czech republic is having a bad second wave. They were one of the least badly hit earlier in the year and indeed had compulsory face coverings including outside. I wonder if some of the clamour for masks in this country is from people looking there earlier in the year and thinking that was the way to beat the virus?

 

[Richard Scott]

I was reading in the Guardian that the Czech republic is having a bad second wave. They were one of the least badly hit earlier in the year and indeed had compulsory face coverings including outside. I wonder if some of the clamour for masks in this country is from people looking there earlier in the year and thinking that was the way to beat the virus?

No they're having a bad first wave, hardly any infections first going off so really just getting going there.