Is anyone else feeling politically homeless?

[birchesgreen]

Basic competence and humanity would be a start

 

[jtuk]

I would vote for Labour if they seperated from the NEC/Trade Union vote

This for me has been the number one reason why I've never considered voting Labour in my life, if they can't separate themselves from an antiquated concept that does no good they don't deserve my vote.

Well, it's number 2 now that Starmer seemingly wants to wreck the country worse than Johnson is doing

 

[Bald Rick]

Camborne in Cornwall is interesting. It was part of Falmouth & Camborne which voted Labour in 2001 but LibDem in 2005. In 2010 boundary changes created a new constituency Camborne & Redruth which voted Conservative.

Indeed - that boundary change didn’t help the Lib Dem MP at all. She was (and still is) an absolute star and would unquestionably have been a Minister in the Coaltion Governement, and was being lined up for leadership.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Labour voters-How would the Conservative Party need to change to attract your vote? For me being a Conservative, I would vote for Labour if they seperated from the NEC/Trade Union vote and became more of a "non-London voice" kind of party than just ideological left-wingism.

Assuming you mean, ex-Labour voters (given the topic of this discussion )....

1. Rediscover the meaning of ethical values: MPs and ministers expected to behave honourably and within the law or be sacked. No more Government trying to rip up the constitution or demonize judges and lawyers for doing their jobs whenever the Government doesn't get its own way. And no more fighting election campaigns by basically non-stop lying about their opponents.
2. Acknowledge that everyone is important and deserves a voice. No more 'dog-whistle' politics that try to secure votes from one group of people by demonizing some other group of people.
3. More credible focus on the environment, and stop caving in to the motorist lobby. The Tories have actually improved an awful lot on this in recent years, but I still get the sense that they talk about green issues while in practice dragging their feet when it comes to action. And I'm not yet convinced that the improvement is permanent.
4. I've no beef with their support for the market economy, but it needs to be part of a better articulated vision of how it can help everyone, including less fortunate members of society.
5. A more internationalist approach to World relations and international affairs. No more petty nationalism.
6. Supporting electoral reform and proportional representation would be a huge for me.

If they can do all that, then I might start seriously looking at them favourably.

 

[Chester1]

I'll also add myself to the 'politically homeless' group.

I was an active Labour member for some years, despite becoming increasingly uneasy about the direction Corbyn was leading the party in. With hindsight, I probably should have left years ago, but only finally did so earlier this year. In the end I figured that Keir Starmer is a pretty good leader whom I can see making a good Prime Minister, but he leads a party that's stuck with Corbyn's legacy of a very toxic culture, a holier-than-thou intolerance towards other viewpoints and a totally unrealistic ideological approach to politics, and I just couldn't support that any more.

Since then, I looked at the LibDems: They ought in many ways to be a natural home for me because my instincts tend to be very pragmatic, concerned about social justice and the environment while also believing in the market economy and maximising individual freedom as much as possible. But I've spent quite a bit of time looking online at what the LibDems are saying at the moment, and I find it very unappealing. In particular, it seems to me that - far from standing up for any identifiable liberal principles, mostly the LibDems currently seem to be falling into the trap of strongly aligning themselves with what I would see as fairly intolerant 'woke' politics and assuming that is the answer to our ills.

As for the Tories - totally out of the question because they seem to have abandoned any kind of moral compass.

Greens - also largely out of the question (other than possibly as a protest vote), even though I regard the environment and climate change as the most important issue of our times, because the Greens seem to have a completely unscientific approach, with a long history of frequently opposing things that are on balance good for combatting climate change (HS2, nuclear power, etc.) without apparently making any attempt to understand what they are opposing.

That seems to rule out all the parties. I suspect I will eventually end up with the LibDems on the basis of least-bad option, but I'm not feeling massively enthusiastic.

I agree with the Lib Dems on most domestic policy issues but their treatment of Tim Farron (leader 2015-17) and more recent ultra woke positions combined with an extreme approach to reversing brexit have alienated me. I believe in equality but identity politics currently seems to me to be about excuses to fight a tribal culture war. My view on brexit is that I voted remain, my side lost so I want a liberal brexit. The UK has plenty of models for being a socially and economically liberal country outside of multi national union e.g. Canada and New Zealand. I don't think even now they are in a place were most of the party can contemplate not being a member (or defacto Norway style) of the EU. There will be a policy void on important issues until they can. Its fair enough to support joining the single market but you also need a swathe of more realistic policies for the current reality. I suspect Starmer is gearing up to whip Labour MPs to vote in favour if there is a brexit deal. His view will be that it is a tolerable bare minimum but that side deals are needed to supplement it. Id still struggle to vote Labour but it would move the dial a bit.

Assuming you mean, ex-Labour voters (given the topic of this discussion )....

1. Rediscover the meaning of ethical values: MPs and ministers expected to behave honourably and within the law or be sacked. No more Government trying to rip up the constitution or demonize judges and lawyers for doing their jobs whenever the Government doesn't get its own way. And no more fighting election campaigns by basically non-stop lying about their opponents.
2. Acknowledge that everyone is important and deserves a voice. No more 'dog-whistle' politics that try to secure votes from one group of people by demonizing some other group of people.
3. More credible focus on the environment, and stop caving in to the motorist lobby. The Tories have actually improved an awful lot on this in recent years, but I still get the sense that they talk about green issues while in practice dragging their feet when it comes to action. And I'm not yet convinced that the improvement is permanent.
4. I've no beef with their support for the market economy, but it needs to be part of a better articulated vision of how it can help everyone, including less fortunate members of society.
5. A more internationalist approach to World relations and international affairs. No more petty nationalism.
6. Supporting electoral reform and proportional representation would be a huge for me.

If they can do all that, then I might start seriously looking at them favourably.

Some of my friends who don't vote Tory have said they would considering if Sunak becomes PM. If the nationalist rhetoric is dropped under a new leader and "Global Britain" becomes a meaningful platform of policies for an open, pro democracy, pro free trade, pro (controlled) immigration then I would consider voting for them. If there is a brexit deal then any Tory MP who votes against it should have the whip removed like what happened to the die hard remainer Tories last year. That would remove a dozen or more extreme MPs from the party.

 

[trainophile]

Are there any politicians left who are altruistic and not just in it for career progression?

I quite like Lisa Nandy, would vote for her if I lived in Wigan, even though I've been a lifelong Tory until now.

 

[Scotrail12]

I can't believe I'm saying this but at this point, I'll be voting for Farage in the next election unless Starmer redeems himself post COVID or Conservatives have a decent leader.

I just hope his party is available in Scottish constituencies - would not vote SNP if forced to at gunpoint.

 

[DB]

I'm not sure it's so unrealistic: New Zealand has, for all practical purposes, achieved close to zero-Covid, and Australia and several Asian countries aren't too far behind. Obviously, to achieve that, they acted earlier than the UK and have had fairly strict quarantines on people coming into the country, something we've been reluctant to do here.

But unless they impose 2 week quarantines indefinitely this won't continue long term, and doing do would be ruinous economically. A virus which has achieved such wide spread can only be eradicated by a very effective vaccine, and even then is likely to take years. They've simply delayed the problem, not resolved it.

As regards political parties, I would normally vote either Green or Labour. Have voted Lib Dem in the past. Currently, there is no party I would vote for.

 

[alex397]

I can't believe I'm saying this but at this point, I'll be voting for Farage in the next election unless Starmer redeems himself post COVID or Conservatives have a decent leader.

I just hope his party is available in Scottish constituencies - would not vote SNP if forced to at gunpoint.

It seems to me a massive contrast to be voting for Farage, but still considering Labour. Although of course, nothing is black and white with political views.

You don’t have to answer, but what appeals to you about Farage? Regardless of his views, he seems to regularly lie and make u-turns, very much like the current government. He portrays an image of being anti-establishment, despite having an establishment background which seems very dishonest to me. He has also failed to become an MP on 7 occasions.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can't believe I'm saying this but at this point, I'll be voting for Farage in the next election unless Starmer redeems himself post COVID or Conservatives have a decent leader.

I just hope his party is available in Scottish constituencies - would not vote SNP if forced to at gunpoint.

Don’t forget Farage counts Trump as a friend. All you need to know.

 

[Darandio]

I can't believe I'm saying this but at this point, I'll be voting for Farage in the next election unless Starmer redeems himself post COVID or Conservatives have a decent leader.

I just hope his party is available in Scottish constituencies - would not vote SNP if forced to at gunpoint.

Why anyone would vote for the opportunist party is beyond me. He only goes for whatever the trend is, it's currently the restrictions so he's on the bandwagon. Once we get back to some sort of normal the trend might well be for all English to hate Scotland, you can guarantee his 'We Hate Scotland' party would follow in short order.

 

[Busaholic]

Indeed - that boundary change didn’t help the Lib Dem MP at all. She was (and still is) an absolute star and would unquestionably have been a Minister in the Coaltion Governement, and was being lined up for leadership.

As somebody living in the next constituency who has voted Lib Dem in every General Election since 1992, and seen one elected on many occasions until recently, I cannot concur with your verdict on Candy Atherton, who didn't come well out of the 'expenses scandal', not so much because of the scale of her claims but what they were for, the Lib Dem equivalent of the taxpayers paying for an MP's moat. It did not go down well with the impoverished constituents of Camborne and Redruth: I recall other press stories around that time that painted her in a less than flattering light. Camborne had allowed itself to be seduced by the dubious charms of the entryist Sebastian Coe for the Conservatives in 1992 (although, in truth, it would have been the Falmouth half of the then constituency that elected him) and were now keen to be represented by someone not so nakedly seen to be in it for themselves.

 

[Bald Rick]

As somebody living in the next constituency who has voted Lib Dem in every General Election since 1992, and seen one elected on many occasions until recently, I cannot concur with your verdict on Candy Atherton, who didn't come well out of the 'expenses scandal', not so much because of the scale of her claims but what they were for, the Lib Dem equivalent of the taxpayers paying for an MP's moat. It did not go down well with the impoverished constituents of Camborne and Redruth: I recall other press stories around that time that painted her in a less than flattering light. Camborne had allowed itself to be seduced by the dubious charms of the entryist Sebastian Coe for the Conservatives in 1992 (although, in truth, it would have been the Falmouth half of the then constituency that elected him) and were now keen to be represented by someone not so nakedly seen to be in it for themselves.

I was referring to Julia Goldsworthy, although I think you were too. Fair enough, I’m not local and didn’t know about the local feeling. I can only go by what I know, and that is that of all the MPs I’ve met, she was one of the very best.

 

[Scotrail12]

It seems to me a massive contrast to be voting for Farage, but still considering Labour. Although of course, nothing is black and white with political views.

You don’t have to answer, but what appeals to you about Farage? Regardless of his views, he seems to regularly lie and make u-turns, very much like the current government. He portrays an image of being anti-establishment, despite having an establishment background which seems very dishonest to me. He has also failed to become an MP on 7 occasions.

Any party except for the SNP is on the menu for me depending on who they serve up as leader. As it stands as of today, a vote for Farage from me is more of a protest vote at the current abysmal leadership we have and whilst Farage is a definite opportunist, I do feel it's crucial that someone in the political world speaks up about the deadly effects of lockdowns.

 

[yorksrob]

I've been a socialist for as long as I remember, but with Labour being as much use as a puddle in discussions around lockdown, I find myself far more in agreement with the backbench Tories such as Graham Brady.

However hopeless and in thrall to SAGE Johnson is, I would fear a Labour Government far more without the balance of the anti-lockdown Tories.

 

[antharro]

I've been mostly on the right for most of my adult life. However way back in the day I voted Lib Dem a couple of times in the locals as my local counsellors did a pretty good job. I have never voted Labour and highly doubt I ever would - plenty has been said in this thread already about them which covers my thoughts exactly. I've voted Green once, and Tory and UKIP numerous times - Tory in the last elections. I don't really fit into any party - I know I lean to the right but I hold views that would traditionally be held on the left - nationalised industry and services, for example.

I'm giving the Tories the next couple of years to see how they do, but right now I can only see myself voting for them as a "least worst" option. I started out optimistic after the election but I'm finding it hard to keep the faith. As for whatever Farage comes up with, I'll can't say decisively that I would definitely vote for whatever party he puts forward but I would consider it.

While I'm posting, I'd just like to add that it's a pleasure to find a politics thread that has gone for a few pages without resorting to name calling and (ultimately) thread locking!

 

[Cowley]

I’ve moved the Donald Trump related posts into the Donald Trump thread now. Can we try and keep this one on topic please. Thanks all.
The Trump thread is here:

Donald Trump and the aftermath of his presidency

Donald Trump's inauguration takes place today. Thoughts?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[D365]

The lib dems are what huge numbers of people would want if you actually forced it out of them: a progressive party with sensible policies which - and this is the big one - not in thrall to vested interests and their lobbyists. Of course it is that last point that which is the reason there is no media coverage. They are perpetual outsiders.

This is exactly why I feel more of an alignment to Lib Dem than to any other party. Alas you've summed up the difficulties very well.

I've had individuals (whom I later found out to be ardent Labour/Corbyn supporters) seemingly chastise me for sticking to my middle-ground views. The aggressive Labour "campaigning" last year (on both sides - pro and anti) made it impossible to see the Lib Dems as anything more than outsiders.

 

[brad465]

Peter Hitchens was saying on Talk Radio recently that despite Labour voting with the Government on most actions, he doesn't think it will impact them too negatively come the next election, citing how the Tories voted with the Government on Iraq but Labour are almost wholly blamed/remembered for it. He believes the economic damage will largely be attributed to the incumbent Government, like has been the case in previous recessions.

On here many of us appear to be well informed and will think otherwise to this statement, however no particular platform is representative of the average voter, who may well think otherwise to our views.

 

[DB]

Peter Hitchens was saying on Talk Radio recently that despite Labour voting with the Government on most actions, he doesn't think it will impact them too negatively come the next election, citing how the Tories voted with the Government on Iraq but Labour are almost wholly blamed/remembered for it. He believes the economic damage will largely be attributed to the incumbent Government, like has been the case in previous recessions.

On here many of us appear to be well informed and will think otherwise to this statement, however no particular platform is representative of the average voter, who may well think otherwise to our views.

Problem is that all parties are implicated in this.

I'm sure the Tories will take the bulk of the blame though - just as Brown did for not regulating the banks more strongly. The Tories largley got away without criticism, despite having pushed for even less regulation that Labour put in place.

 

[PeterY]

I've never really been politically minded and I'm in my 60's. I do vote but struggle to pick which party to vote for. I think, I followed my father's views in that all politicians are there, only to line their own pockets and not for the likes of me.

I just wish politicians would get out of the electric gated houses and see what it's really like in the "real" world.

 

[trebor79]

I honestly don't know how I will vote next, I've always voted Conservative.
My local (Conservative) MP, in a very safe seat hasn't even bothered replying to communications on the governments performance.

Test & Trace is the most monumental waste of money - it must be the biggest rip-off of government by consultants ever. £22bn, works out at over £20,000 per case, and getting on for £40,000 per case that is successfully contacted and provides details of close contacts. Just think about that for a moment. Forty thousand pounds for someone to call your mates and ask them to isolate. That's over 1.5 times the average annual salary. The labour cost of that work is going to be around £200. Where is the other £39,800 going? I know there are overheads, software etc to pay for, but still!

There's absolutely no way I will ever vote Conservative ever again until Boris Johnson and the entire cabinet are gone from positions of responsibility (with the possible exception of Sunak).

I actually think we need a reset in politics, I'd go so far as a completely reformed system. MP's should not be allowed to serve for more than two terms, and ministers should be barred for life from employment in certain industries after they leave parliament - banking, consulting, investment management etc. This will remove a lot of conflicts of interest, and ensure that parliament is stuffed with "real" people with real lives in the real world rather than a many career politicians who have been in an insulated Westminster bubble for decades. I honestly think many of them have lost sight of what they are actually there for, and believe it's all about scoring political points rather than thinking about and pushing for the best impact upon the real world.
I'd move parliament out of the Palace of Westminster and into a modern, fit for purpose building somewhere other than London. Perhaps somewhere up north, Carlisle or somewhere else that desperately needs a bit of a boost. All the daft traditions like Black Rod, "I see strangers", and other ceremonial nonsense ditched - all this stuff helps create the bubble our politicians are in. Many of the ministries I would likewise move out of London and disperse over the country. I'd have a large secondary government/ministry facility somewhere in the middle of the country with facilities to host policy-making events and discussions.

I'm mulling the idea of standing as an independent in the next election. I'll almost certainly lose but Labour are never ever going to get in here and I think people might be persuaded next time around to vote for a "normal" aligned with their interests.

 

[ABB125]

I'm mulling the idea of standing as an independent in the next election. I'll almost certainly lose but Labour are never ever going to get in here and I think people might be persuaded next time around to vote for a "normal" aligned with their interests.

Interestingly, my dad was semi-seriously considering standing as an independent last time, but never got around to it. Obviously there would have been no chance of him winning (very safe Conservative seat), but it would have been interesting to see what happened.

I suspect there might be rather more independents next time around!

 

[37424]

I'm not going to critise the government over Corona too much because it was something unpresedented in my lifetime and the chances of any government handling it totally right was never going to happen, and of course 'handling it correctly' is open to intrepretation depending on your viewpoint. As a Remainer or someone who will accept some sort of Brexit deal the fact we are less than 2 months away and we don't know what's happening I will critise the government for that and if we end up with no deal then I won't vote Tory again thats for sure, I get partularly annoyed when Johson doesn't even have the guts to call it No Deal now, it's the Australia Deal.

Politically I am probably closet to the Lib Dem's but I am not impressed with them these days particularly when they turned round and said we will just cancel Brexit. Labour are too far left for me and Corbyn wasn't fit to be Prime Minister as far as I was concerned, Starmer is an improvement but the Labour party still has a significant number of Corbyn supporters so the jury is very much out as to whether I could vote Labour in future.

As for Farage there is nothing I can say about him which doesn't involve and lot of swear words.

 

[DB]

I'm not going to critise the government over Corona too much because it was something unpresedented in my lifetime and the chances of any government handling it totally right was never going to happen, and of course 'handling it correctly' is open to intrepretation depending on your viewpoint.

But there is a difference between having a consistent policy (which different people may or may not agree with), and a constant stream of knee-jerk reactions ansd backtracking, and taking actions based on claims which contradict the actual data (e.g. claims that hospitals were already overwhelmed at the beginning of the latest lockdown, which the data shows they weren't, and many other similar cases).

 

[37424]

But there is a difference between having a consistent policy (which different people may or may not agree with), and a constant stream of knee-jerk reactions ansd backtracking, and taking actions based on claims which contradict the actual data (e.g. claims that hospitals were already overwhelmed at the beginning of the latest lockdown, which the data shows they weren't, and many other similar cases).

I'm not going not get into a Corona debate on this thread and I know a lot on here are anti lockdown which I'm not , but what I do know is that the hospital I was in a couple of weeks ago was very close to the limit, yes the government havent got it prefect by any means far from it, but I doubt Labour would have done any better, I'm more concerned what the general policies of the parties will be going forward, and I think all the parties still approach things from a 20th century perspective, when they should be looking at new ways to approach things from a 21st century perpective.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not going not get into a Corona debate on this thread and I know a lot on here are anti lockdown which I'm not , but what I do know is that the hospital I was in a couple of weeks ago was very close to the limit, yes the government havent got it prefect by any means far from it, but I doubt Labour would have done any better, I'm more concerned what the general policies of the parties will be going forward, and I think all the parties still approach things from a 20th century perspective, when they should be looking at new ways to approach things from a 21st century perpective.

Absolutely - it's so much more than just Covid (though for some people, they don't seem to be able to discuss anything else) and Farage is just an odious, right wing, dog whistler.

I was feeling politically homeless. I have never voted Tory; I believe in free market freedoms, enabling people to be entrepreneurial and being pro-business but as a means of enabling the overall standard of life to be increased, so very much the Scandinavian model where, incidentally, there are still wealth inequalities but overall, the starting off point is better. Basically, what is termed New Labour or Blairism when, in reality, that was a move begun by Kinnock and the late John Smith, before the marketing people got in on the act.

As soon as the wrong Miliband was voted in as Labour leader, I knew trouble was ahead as he just didn't have the skills or the people with them. What he then did was, with laudable intentions, to try to make the Labour party more accessible but, as we know, that just allowed a bunch of SWP insurgents to vote in a cabal of unreconstructed Trots. For those of us old enough, it was a fast rewind back to the early 80s and the debacle that ended up with the 1983 Tory landslide. 2017 was a blip that emboldened the Corbynistas when, in reality, it was a reflection on the desperate Tory campaign under Theresa May.

Being more Centrist is where Labour HAS to be in order to be relevant, binding the old beliefs with the understanding that the world has changed. Hopefully, Starmer is now beginning to rebuild the Labour party into something that is reflective of what the electorate actually wants whilst also being true to its traditions; as a party of the working classes rather than some student protest or ageing middle class lefties fixated on class warfare, gender pronouns, and Palestine.

Alan Johnson was spot on in his excoriating dissection of Jon Landsman on election night. I thought the defeat of Laura Pidcock was emblematic, losing North West Durham (ffs); a woman so convinced of the purity of their beliefs that they cannot possibly entertain anything that challenges that, let alone having a Tory as a friend. It's the same stupidity as not being friends with a Brexiteer if you're a Remainer, or being able to discuss rationally about Covid less you're labelled as a Lockdown fanatic/Let It Ripper* (* delete as appropriate ).

I'll wait to see what Starmer begins to come up with but I'm more optimistic about finding a home than I was last year.

 

[HSTEd]

Being more Centrist is where Labour HAS to be in order to be relevant, binding the old beliefs with the understanding that the world has changed. Hopefully, Starmer is now beginning to rebuild the Labour party into something that is reflective of what the electorate actually wants whilst also being true to its traditions; as a party of the working classes rather than some student protest or ageing middle class lefties fixated on class warfare, gender pronouns, and Palestine.

The problem is that there are not enough votes in the centre to win Labour the election now that the civil war that started at Corbyn's victory in the first leadership election has destroyed any faith the left of the party has in the other wings.
The left has seen how far the Blairites are willing to go to ensure Corbyn's defeat, and that they prefer a Tory government to one where the left of the party has any influence.

(The left might be a relatively small group, but it has enough votes to lose Labour the election if it defects to someone else en masse)

Keir is even now engaging in purges of the party to solidy Blairite control, and somehow the PLP that spent years barracking against Corbyn in attempts to undermine him expect the left of the party to shut up and fall in line.
It would be comical if it weren't so tragic.

They set the bridge on fire and are now upset that it's still burning.
The Labour party is simply finished, it can't put the coalition back together, and the best bet Keir has of getting into Number 10 is to put proportional representation into the manifesto and accept that the party will split itself into at least three peices after that is in place.
That might be enough to get the various wingso f the party to trust each other enough for one more election, but I doubt it.

 

[brad465]

They set the bridge on fire and are now upset that it's still burning.
The Labour party is simply finished, it can't put the coalition back together, and the best bet Keir has of getting into Number 10 is to put proportional representation into the manifesto and accept that the party will split itself into at least three peices after that is in place.
That might be enough to get the various wingso f the party to trust each other enough for one more election, but I doubt it.

I certainly agree they need to bring PR in, and actually polling of Labour membership shows strong support that means it has a good chance of uniting the party enough for an election campaign centred on it, if that policy happens. If they split after the election they'll eventually realise they need to work together to get some form of power, which might actually make them more cohesive in future elections.

It's also worth pointing out the Tory Party has its own divisions but keeps them better under wraps. However some are suggesting the expected Brexit fallout next year will expose these divisions, something Covid has already started doing itself recently.

 

[HSTEd]

I certainly agree they need to bring PR in, and actually polling of Labour membership shows strong support that means it has a good chance of uniting the party enough for an election campaign centred on it, if that policy happens. If they split after the election they'll eventually realise they need to work together to get some form of power, which might actually make them more cohesive in future elections.

It is likely that if they did split into the Blairite Wing, the Party "Centre" (Burnham et al) and the Corbynite left, at least the latter two would spend most of their time in alliance. So the movement Labour represents would survive.