Connections

[Capybara]

What exactly consitutes a connection these days? When I was young, trains on branch lines, for instance, would always wait for trains that were listed as connections if the incoming train was delayed. Now, despite minimum connection times being listed at stations, that doesn't seem to happen any more, presumably because trains running on time is more important than the timely delivery of passengers. Is that correct?

I'm just back from a trip to Europe where I observed German trains regularly waiting, and had a train in the Czech Republic wait for me (and others).

 

[Any Permitted]

I think it depends on how important the route is (this is just observations rather than actually knowing).

I mean if the London train is late then the Great Yarmouth train will wait for a while at Norwich but not long, if the Great Yarmouth train is late the London train won't wait a single second. I was getting off a late-running London train at Ipswich the other day and a 153 on the Cambridge service waited a good 15 minutes past it's departure time in the bay platform for a rather ungrateful family to dawdle over the footbridge and take a slow meander down the platform.

 

[142094]

At some of the larger stations you are required to leave a certain number of minutes to catch a connection - say if you get to station X at xx.10 and the next train to Y is xx.14 but the connection time is 5 minutes this would not be a 'booked connection', so you couldn't complain if you missed it.

 

[Dewedin]

What exactly consitutes a connection these days.

Train Y Departure - Train X Arrival >= Minimum Connection Time for Station Z

A couple of years ago I experienced problems on the WCML and the Windermere TPE service waited for the Virgin service to arrive at Oxenholme for a good 15-20 minutes.

More recently I was travelling TPE from Preston to Dewsbury on a Thursday evening, the first train arrived in Manchester Picc 20 minutes late and the 'connecting' train hadn't waited, despite the TM calling ahead.

 

[Fred26]

Don't some TOC's have permission to hold their branch line trains for a set amount of time without incurring any sort of penalty?
I'm thinking of the Marks Tey to Sudbury line with NXEA. I think I heard a few years ago, that if the train from London is running late the Sudbury train can be held (for ten minutes?), but I don't know how accurate that is. Obviously that wouldn't apply if the Sudbury train was about to miss its connection due to being late, as there is more than one train per hour from Marks Tey to Liverpool Street.

 

[jopsuk]

Without reference to anything to do with penalties, branch trains are much more amenable to being held as they won't muck up "slots"- intercity trains can't really be held, especially if they're heading for somewhere rather busy such as London as one slightly late train can cause chaos...

 

[Greenback]

On the other hand, where minor routes are not one train operated, and have single line sections, holding a train can have serious consequences. Take, for example, Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth. Although there is presently only one train every two hours, which would result in a huge delay for a missed connection to, say, Welshpool, consideration also needs to be given to how holding a train for even five minutes would impact on other services.

Each situation has to be judged on it's own merits, so sometimes the decisions made could appear to be inconsistent, but trains are still sometimes held for connections!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Rule of thumb these days is you don't hold an on time train for a late running one. Holds have to be granted by control on their own merits as suggested by Greenback ^
Some trains that connect into services from my station, if held can affect connections further on.

 

[mickey]

There's no hard and fast rule about holding trains for late inbound services. Some TOCs advertise that they do it (e.g. Chiltern on its shuttle, but only for a late northbound - they won't hold the mainline train) but for most it's strictly on a needs-must basis. It's most common for the last connection of the night, assuming someone on the station has the nouse to realise problems could be caused and solved. As said above, single track sections will almost never be held, for obvious reasons (think what happens with a single small delay on the Cotswold line, for example!).

The example that most springs to mind for me though is Holyhead trains at Crewe, which are often held for late inbound VT services. I'm frequently amazed at quite how willing certain staff on this route are to keep people moving.

 

[Bittern]

I think it depends on how important the route is (this is just observations rather than actually knowing).

Hows this one?

Coming back from Inverness last year, I was on the 16:53 to Edinburgh, switching at Perth for the 19:14 to Glasgow Queen street (from Aberdeen). Unfortunately, a northbound HST was late, and because the track is mostly single file between Blair Atholl (I think) and Perth, we were late too, and arrived at Perth just after the Glasgow train left.

Now, this is advertised as a connection. Why couldn't they have just held the Glasgow train for a few more minutes?

 

[mickey]

(deleting duplication)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In the old days they would quite often hold anything for up to 5 minutes for a connection on request as long as the train being held wasn't scheduled to depart before the incoming one with the person trying to make the connection. Even on quite busy lines.

Most of the time this system worked very well as long as the service was running normally.

But on occasion it could go spectacularly wrong if a disruption started AFTER a "hold" was arranged - see my post #4 in this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34855 for an example of just such a foul up.

I suspect it is probably not a coincidence that the "hold" rule was reviewed not long after that incident and then phased out...

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Now, this is advertised as a connection. Why couldn't they have just held the Glasgow train for a few more minutes?

Because when it costs the TOC £250 a minute to hold a train... 9 times out of 10 it's probably cheaper to taxi pax.

 

[yorkie]

Because when it costs the TOC £250 a minute to hold a train... 9 times out of 10 it's probably cheaper to taxi pax.

Theoretically cheaper, yes, but not really cheaper, at least not for the rail industry or the taxpayers/farepayers.

But it keeps the accountants happy, so it MUST be done!

 

[466.networkers]

In regards to the Sheerness Line, if a train to London or Dover/Ramsgate/Faversham is delayed, then the Sheerness train has to wait in Platform 3 at Sittingbourne due to the path it takes. Wonder how much Southeastern have to pay in 'late' fees per year ...

 

[yorkie]

Now, this is advertised as a connection. Why couldn't they have just held the Glasgow train for a few more minutes?

Statistics matter more than actual passenger experiences. If they want to make a statement at how happy everyone is, ATOC will do a survey on a non-delayed train and ensure that 4 out of 5 people say rail travel is an utter delight. The reality is ignored and papered over.

They'd rather lose £millions each year in ridiculously expensive taxi bills, than the money stay within the rail industry but go to 'rival' companies.

This is to ensure the taxpayers and farepayers get the worst possible deal, while the bean counters are kept happy.:roll: After all, they can keep putting the fares up and up above inflation and they can ensure that loads of taxpayers money props up the taxi industry. And who is going to stop them?

Perhaps our new Government can see some of the crazy ways the rail industry wastes money and put a stop to it, rather than just close lines and cut services instead...

 

[tbtc]

Trouble is, you can't get everything to connect with everything.

If you had to hold the Norwich - Liverpool service at Norwich to connect with a late running service from Great Yarmouth then that makes the Liverpool service late which means other services that connect with it later on on the journey are going to be impacted... (do you hold an ECML service at Peterborough to connect for Norwich - Leeds passengers, do you hold a Nottingham - Cardiff train for Derby passengers, do you hold a Transpennine service at Manchester for Sheffield - Blackpool passengers...)

There will always be "one minute connections" or connections that fall just under the minimum connection time (e.g. only four minutes at a station where a minimum of five minutes are required)

 

[ivanhoe]

There should be different rules for the so called Branch Line Trains which should be exempt from any penalties whatsoever if they wait for late running main line trains. Having experienced a missed connection at Nuneaton for Leicester(last train) I saw how crass the current system is. Virgin telephoned ahead but control for X Country said no. In the meantime it was left to London Midland Staff to source taxis for 15 passengers. I would not mind, but the X country train waits at Leicester for 15 minutes before returning to Birmingham. The whole system is chaotic, not fit for purpose, but nobody speaks out on behalf of passengers.

 

[Greenback]

But as tbtc rightly points out, it's impossible to connect everywhere with everywhere else. 15 mins is not a long time for a train turnaround, during which time a seat may have to be cleaned, and reservations loaded before allowing passengers to evne start boarding. I;ve seen ATW 15 minute turnarounds at Mancheste Piccadilly, and they are pretty tight.

Then you have to think about people on the Nuneaton - Leicester train. How many want to be delayed? How many have onward connection sor arrangements to be picked up at Leicester, and how many will be inconvenienced by that? Is it more than the 15 on the late train? If so, how many more? What number should it be before it;s better to hold the train?

There are so many factors that have to be considered, which is why I hope that decisions are made carefully and taking into account all of the circumstances.

 

[yorkie]

I'd like to know how much it costs for 15 people to be transported by taxi from Nuneaton - Leicester. If it costs any more than that to delay a train for a few minutes, then the system is screwed. The rail industry is literally throwing money away.

The taxi companies are laughing all the way to the bank, and we are the ones paying for it.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I'd like to know how much it costs for 15 people to be transported by taxi from Nuneaton - Leicester. If it costs any more than that to delay a train for a few minutes, then the system is screwed. The rail industry is literally throwing money away.

The taxi companies are laughing all the way to the bank, and we are the ones paying for it.

You're quite right, if I think I can get a connection held, I will try my best, always do, not only does it keep the pax happy and keep them moving, it makes my job a damn sight easier than having to spend half hour ringing and chasing up TOC's and taxi companies.

 

[Greenback]

I'd like to know how much it costs for 15 people to be transported by taxi from Nuneaton - Leicester. If it costs any more than that to delay a train for a few minutes, then the system is screwed. The rail industry is literally throwing money away.

The taxi companies are laughing all the way to the bank, and we are the ones paying for it.

I agree that a lot of money is beging wasted. I assume the service in question is a late night train, otherwise there would have been little need for a taxi in the first place. Of course, having to wait for more than an hour would mean all the delayed passengers being entitled to compensation. I have no idea which would be the cheaper option overall!

You're quite right, if I think I can get a connection held, I will try my best, always do, not only does it keep the pax happy and keep them moving, it makes my job a damn sight easier than having to spend half hour ringing and chasing up TOC's and taxi companies.

Most front line staff will try and hold a connection, but my understanding is that the decision is often taken by the TOC control, sometimes in conjunction with NR.

When connections are held at Swansea, as they are more often than not, I don't mind too much, as I might be in need of that one day myself. Not all passengers are understanding, though, especially if they have friends waiting to collect them, or a bus connection to pick up. I know of one person who travels to Swansea every Friday afternoon in order to connect into the LAST bus to a village which leaves at 1700! If his train is ten minutes late, he will miss the bus, and his only alternative is one an hour later and a long walk! As there are no through tickets, he is pretty stuck!

 

[ukrob]

I'd like to know how much it costs for 15 people to be transported by taxi from Nuneaton - Leicester. If it costs any more than that to delay a train for a few minutes, then the system is screwed. The rail industry is literally throwing money away.

The taxi companies are laughing all the way to the bank, and we are the ones paying for it.

£240. Four cabs at £60 each carrying 4,4,4 and 3 people. It might be cheaper if the taxi firm has minibuses available. Obviously that is only a quote however the TOC's will have contracts with taxi companies.

Someone said it costs £250 per minute to hold a train. I have no idea where that number comes from or if it is correct, but lets hold the train for four minutes - that is £1000. So according to the very simplistic maths, a taxi is over four times cheaper. Obviously other factors come into it as well.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Then you have to think about people on the Nuneaton - Leicester train. How many want to be delayed? How many have onward connection sor arrangements to be picked up at Leicester, and how many will be inconvenienced by that? Is it more than the 15 on the late train? If so, how many more? What number should it be before it;s better to hold the train?

Nuneaton is a good case for why it is often best not to hold connections. The LM Trent Valley service arrives at xx.01 and the onward Leicester stopper is xx.23. Whilst it might seem a good idea to hold the XC service if the LM is running 25-30 late but the XC service connects into an EMT service to Nottingham which is just a 4 minute connection. The number of people making a Tamworth - Hinckley journey is likely to be much less than the number doing Hinckley/Narborough - Loughborough.

 

[Greenback]

£240. Four cabs at £60 each carrying 4,4,4 and 3 people. It might be cheaper if the taxi firm has minibuses available. Obviously that is only a quote however the TOC's will have contracts with taxi companies.

Someone said it costs £250 per minute to hold a train. I have no idea where that number comes from or if it is correct, but lets hold the train for four minutes - that is £1000. So according to the very simplistic maths, a taxi is over four times cheaper. Obviously other factors come into it as well.

I believe TOC's can negotiate better rates with taxi companies than we can as private individuals!

Nuneaton is a good case for why it is often best not to hold connections. The LM Trent Valley service arrives at xx.01 and the onward Leicester stopper is xx.23. Whilst it might seem a good idea to hold the XC service if the LM is running 25-30 late but the XC service connects into an EMT service to Nottingham which is just a 4 minute connection. The number of people making a Tamworth - Hinckley journey is likely to be much less than the number doing Hinckley/Narborough - Loughborough.

Which is what I was trying clumsily to say, but I lacked the local knowledge! I don;t think that whether to hold a connection should ever be a decision based on money, but should take into account the needs of the majority of passengers.

 

[mickey]

Which is what I was trying clumsily to say, but I lacked the local knowledge! I don;t think that whether to hold a connection should ever be a decision based on money, but should take into account the needs of the majority of passengers.

But is it practical - or even possible - to count the number of passengers who could be affected, on anything up to half a dozen trains, to find the utilitarian solution? Especially in the time available?

Then you have to think about people on the Nuneaton - Leicester train. How many want to be delayed? How many have onward connection sor arrangements to be picked up at Leicester, and how many will be inconvenienced by that? Is it more than the 15 on the late train? If so, how many more? What number should it be before it;s better to hold the train?

And if there are delays and holds at Nuneaton, who's going to pay compensation to all the FOCs who get delayed as a result? Let's not forget that they have the same rights to their paths as everyone else.

 

[Lampshade]

A couple of years ago I experienced problems on the WCML and the Windermere TPE service waited for the Virgin service to arrive at Oxenholme for a good 15-20 minutes.

I was going to mention this. Myself and a friend were heading to the Windermere Airshow last year but the service was 10 minutes late into Preston and lost further time at Lancaster. We must have 'missed' the TPE at Oxenholme by 12 minutes but they held it, which is just as well given the amount of people who got off the Virgin service there heading for Windermere.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I've known of a connecting service to wait a good 45mins-1 hour before now, might have something to do with one of the arriva directors wanting it mind...

 

[TEW]

Often it depends on the guard on the delayed train, if they ask people if they have any connections they can give numbers of people requiring connections to their control. If TOC controls don't know if anybody on the delayed train wants the connection, it won't be held.

 

[yorkie]

I believe TOC's can negotiate better rates with taxi companies than we can as private individuals!

I'm sure they can, and some may do, but I've seen a taxi bill for over £750 before, but the people in the taxi could have been told to get a train 1/3 of the way there then a taxi, and would have been happy in a hotel, and travel the next day, which would have cost a lot less.