Did any VEPs ever run as 3-car units?

[AY1975]

There were CIGs on the Lymington branch that ran as 3-car units (including 1497 and 1498 that were converted for use only on the branch in 2005) and from about 1993 onwards until the last CEPs were withdrawn there were some 3-CEPs, but did any VEPs ever run as 3-car units (with the TS removed)?

 

[randyrippley]

according to this webpage, yes

SREmG

Enthusiasts, Historians, and Modellers of the Southern Railway, including its predecessors and successors, corresponding over the internet.

sremg.org.uk

Around 1995 the Veps were rebuilt to increase passenger accommodation by eliminating the very under utilised luggage cage in the guards van area and installing an additional two bay seating saloon. Although South West Trains Veps have remained largely unaltered since their conversion Connex South Central have continued to modify their fleet. Some units have had their trailer second open removed and the driving trailer composite converted to a driving trailer second open - these becoming 3 Veps. On the 29 May 1999 CSC introduced its first new sub-class 423/9 (4 Vop "vestibule open plan") by converting the DTC to a DTSOL in a similar fashion to the conversion of Ceps to Cops, however unlike the 3 Vep conversion the Vops remain 4 car units.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember the vandalisation of the VEP's (the opening out of the compartments), but I don't recall seeing any as 3-cars. Not to say it didn't happen, as I'd moved up North in 1996.

 

[Journeyman]

according to this webpage, yes

SREmG

Enthusiasts, Historians, and Modellers of the Southern Railway, including its predecessors and successors, corresponding over the internet.

sremg.org.uk

I don't think that's accurate. I lived in VEP territory right up until their withdrawal, and have most Platform 5 books from the early nineties to date. I've never seen a 3-VEP, and none were ever listed in the books.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Didn't the "celebrity" SWT rail blue unit (named "Gordon Pettitt" after a recently retired manager iirc) run as a 3-car unit for a while?

 

[Journeyman]

Didn't the "celebrity" SWT rail blue unit (named "Gordon Pettitt" after a recently retired manager iirc) run as a 3-car unit for a while?

No.

 

[JonathanH]

The 8-VAB in the 1970s was effectively a 5-VEP and a 3-VEP with the former augmented with a restaurant car but I am not aware of any other 3-VEP operating at any point in the final part of their operating history.

https://sremg.org.uk/proto/8vab-mob.shtml

The unique 8-Vab unit 1968-1974
by Tanya Jackson
In March 1968 a unique eight car unit - 8001 (class 480) - was put together from 4-Vep units 7739, 7741 and 7742 to make up for a shortage in stock on the newly electrified Bournemouth line, partly resulting from teething troubles experienced with the motors of the new 4-Rep units. The Vep vehicles that went to form it were brand new and never saw service as Veps before they were formed into the Vab.

The unit was formed:

driving trailer composite (DTC)
non driving motor open brake second (MBSO)
driving trailer composite (DTC)
PLUS

driving trailer composite (DTC)
non driving motor open brake second (MBSO)
trailer buffet (TRB)
non driving motor open brake second (MBSO)
driving trailer composite (DTC)
and was basically two units, one of three cars and one of five, permanently coupled together. The buffet was a loco-hauled carriage specially converted to work within the unit. MBSO 62203, one of those formed adjacent to buffet car has its 3+2 seating converted to 2+1 with tables at the majority of seating bays. The unit was intended to power an additional 4 TC unit, hence the application for 6 motor bogies in the unit, but it also worked singly when it could be counted upon to provide lively running. It was disbanded in December 1974 when a second batch of 4 Reps were introduced.

The VEP part of the Blood and Custard website doesn't appear to have been written yet.

 

[Journeyman]

The 8-VAB in the 1970s was effectively a 5-VEP and a 3-VEP with the former augmented with a restaurant car but I am not aware of any other 3-VEP operating at any point in the final part of their operating history.

https://sremg.org.uk/proto/8vab-mob.shtml



If there was any 3-VEP it would be recorded here:

The 8-VAB doesn't really count because it always ran as an 8-car formation. If any 3-car units ever operated, it would have been on a temporary basis, and never officially, but I'm pretty sure it never occurred.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If any 3-car units ever operated, it would have been on a temporary basis, and never officially, but I'm pretty sure it never occurred.

There was 7700, which ran as a 3 car for a while although it did eventually become a 4 car. Somewhere I have a picture of it at Fratton as a 3 car...

 

[Journeyman]

There was 7700, which ran as a 3 car for a while although it did eventually become a 4 car. Somewhere I have a picture of it at Fratton as a 3 car...

Was that the one that ended up being 2 VEP carriages and 2 CIG carriages?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Was that the one that ended up being 2 VEP carriages and 2 CIG carriages?

I think it was, yes.

 

[Beebman]

I've found a photo of 7700 as a 4-car unit at Clapham Junction on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74009/4270173998/

The leading car is definitely from a CIG unit. The rear car is in shadow but it looks to me like a VEP DTC and the comments for the photo suggest that it only had one CIG vehicle (at least when the photo was taken).

 

[Journeyman]

I've found a photo of 7700 as a 4-car unit at Clapham Junction on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74009/4270173998/

The leading car is definitely from a CIG unit. The rear car is in shadow but it looks to me like a VEP DTC and the comments for the photo suggest that it only had one CIG vehicle (at least when the photo was taken).

The third vehicle is a motor coach, because the second vehicle is definitely a trailer. 7700 had CIG driving trailers and VEP intermediate vehicles for most of it's existence at least. It had to be a 4 car formation here, otherwise it would be unpowered.

 

[MotCO]

I must admit I don't know my VEPs from my CIGs, but didn't South Eastern run some 11 car formations, which would have been made up of 2 x 4 car and 1 x 3 cars?

Also, this photo looks like 3 car formation (not my photo)

4-VEP at Brighton

3486 leaving Brighton empty for the depot

www.flickr.com

Photo shows a VEP no. 3486 ariving at Brighton in grey and yellow livery. Photo taken in 2005.

 

[JonathanH]

Also, this photo looks like 3 car formation (not my photo)

The third coach is very obviously not a driving car. You can just make out the edge of the final vehicle.

I must admit I don't know my VEPs from my CIGs, but didn't South Eastern run some 11 car formations, which would have been made up of 2 x 4 car and 1 x 3 cars?

South Eastern had eighteen 3-CEPs. South Central had eleven 3-COPs (former BIGs (class 422) from which a buffet car had been removed). Neither operated 3-VEPs.

 

[Journeyman]

South Eastern had eighteen 3-CEPs. South Central had eleven 3-COPs (former BIGs (class 422) from which a buffet car had been removed). Neither operated 3-VEPs.

Indeed. 3-VEPs never existed anywhere, throughout the history of the class. I'm surprised so many people seem to think they did. You won't find a photo of one anywhere!

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed. 3-VEPs never existed anywhere, throughout the history of the class. I'm surprised so many people seem to think they did. You won't find a photo of one anywhere!

Given the trailer coach had 98 standard class seats and there wasn't much to go wrong in it, removing it in favour of the other three coaches would have been somewhat questionable.

 

[Journeyman]

Given the trailer coach had 98 standard class seats and there wasn't much to go wrong in it, removing it in favour of the other three coaches would have been somewhat questionable.

Exactly. The VEPs were built as crowd-shifters, and were very good at loading and unloading huge numbers quickly. If you wanted three cars for lightly used branch lines, CIGs and CEPs made more sense. VEPs were more valuable running as 12-car trains in the peaks.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Indeed. 3-VEPs never existed anywhere, throughout the history of the class. I'm surprised so many people seem to think they did. You won't find a photo of one anywhere!

27th April 1984, at Fratton. Although unfortunately not clear from the picture, it did have only three cars at the time - it had four cars by 1985.

Strictly speaking, it's not a 3 car VEP as it was called a 3-VIG ( and later 4-VIG ) at the time ( a mash up of VEP and CIG ).

 

[Journeyman]

27th April 1984, at Fratton. Although unfortunately not clear from the picture, it did have only three cars at the time - it had four cars by 1985.

Strictly speaking, it's not a 3 car VEP as it was called a 3-VIG ( and later 4-VIG ) at the time ( a mash up of VEP and CIG ).

Yeah, I think that's the only time any VEP vehicles operated in a three-car formation - a temporary reformation of spare vehicles resulting from accident damage, with a fourth vehicle added at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yeah, I think that's the only time any VEP vehicles operated in a three-car formation - a temporary reformation of spare vehicles resulting from accident damage, with a fourth vehicle added at the earliest opportunity.

I've never been able to find out if it ever ran in service with only three cars though.

 

[Journeyman]

I've never been able to find out if it ever ran in service with only three cars though.

It may well not have done. There were no 3-car CEPs or CIGs at the time either, so no diagrams existed for 3-car EMUs on the Southern.