Brexit matters

[21C101]

Sadly I think there is a similar thread in the Scottish independence / EU membership debate too.

And Ireland, where Sinn Fein (Ourselves Alone) had a damascene but shallow conversion from vehement anti EU to pro EU on the "my enemies enemy is my friend" principle.

How long that survives a hike in contributions and harmonisation of corporation tax across the EU remains to be seen. Below is letter to the Irish Times on Corporation Tax issue.

EU and corporate tax regime

www.irishtimes.com

 

[RT4038]

And Ireland, where Sinn Fein (Ourselves Alone) had a damascene but shallow conversion from vehement anti EU to pro EU on the "my enemies enemy is my friend" principle.

How long that survives a hike in contributions and harmonisation of corporation tax across the EU remains to be seen. Below is letter to the Irish Times on Corporation Tax issue.

EU and corporate tax regime

www.irishtimes.com

Quite.
It does rather say something when Scotland and Ireland seek EU protection against the English. Not sure whether this is good or bad? probably both!

I rather suspect that the looming 'harmonisation' of financial practices (and threatened increased regulation of our City casino) has been a major impetus by a certain strata of society to push Brexit through. (The harmonisation presumably intended to protect France and entrench German hegemony?)

 

[matacaster]

More low-paid employment where people are constantly monitored and have to pee in plastic bottles because they don't get proper toilet breaks, and are bullied into meeting ridiculous targets just to make the richest man in the world even richer.

Excuse me if I'm hesitant to celebrate that particular Brexit dividend.

Do amazon's continental workers do that now? If so, perhaps on principle you should not buy from amazon?

 

[Journeyman]

Do amazon's continental workers do that now? If so, perhaps on principle you should not buy from amazon?

Exactly, I don't. I got given a £100 Amazon gift card for Christmas which I returned to the sender.

 

[radamfi]

The EHIC section on the UK government website has been updated and it looks like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein won't accept the UK EHIC or GHIC from 1 January. But it seems you can use a UK passport in Norway instead of having EHIC. I guess they weren't part of the EU deal so are out of scope for EHIC.

Applying for healthcare cover abroad (GHIC and EHIC)

Find out if you're eligible to apply for a new UK EHIC or UK Global Health Insurance Card (GHIC).

www.gov.uk

Visiting Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland from 1 January 2021​

You can use a UK passport to get medically necessary healthcare in Norway.

For most people, UK-issued EHICs are not valid in Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland from 1 January 2021.

Make sure you take out travel insurance with medical cover for your trip.

You may not have access to free emergency medical treatment and could be charged for your healthcare if you do not get health cover with your travel insurance.

Maybe there will be deals for Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein in the future. I guess that's obviously pretty serious for a lot of train fans here. I was hoping to spend a lot of time in Switzerland when I'm retired so it looks like I'm definitely going to have to move to Ireland to retain EHIC validity in Switzerland if that situation doesn't change, due to my health conditions.

 

[37424]

So it would appear the ERG have given their approval so it should pass tomorrow without issue and obviously they have decided its bad enough for them to make money out of it. It would appear that up 20 Labour will vote against, the SNP and the DUP and the Lib Dems. Now the Lib Dems should appeal to me a centerist Remainer, but I think they have been an absolute disgrace on Brexit, first there was we will just cancel it if we win the election, and now voting against a deal which maybe not what they want but the alternative is No Deal, I'm unlikely to vote Lib Un Democrat anytime soon.

 

[Journeyman]

So it would appear the ERG have given their approval so it should pass tomorrow without issue and obviously they have decided its bad enough for them to make money out of it. It would appear that up 20 Labour will vote against, the SNP and the DUP and the Lib Dems. Now the Lib Dems should appeal to me a centerist Remainer, but I think they have been an absolute disgrace on Brexit, first there was we will just cancel it if we win the election, and now voting against a deal which maybe not what they want but the alternative is No Deal, I'm unlikely to vote Lib Un Democrat anytime soon.

Thing is, both the Lib Dems and SNP can afford to do this, because (a) there's not enough of them to defeat the government anyway, and (b) they don't want Brexit cooties all over them, especially important for the perenially-hard-done-by SNP, seeking to maximise anti-Westminster ill-feeling as per usual.

I agree that the Lib Dems seriously misjudged the mood at the last election. If we were ever to rejoin the EU, it would take more than a decisive election victory for a pro-EU party, it would need a referendum with an absolutely stonking majority in favour, and let's face it, that's decades away at least.

It's an absolutely terrible deal, but the risk of no deal is even worse. It has to be passed.

 

[radamfi]

Now the Lib Dems should appeal to me a centerist Remainer, but I think they have been an absolute disgrace on Brexit, first there was we will just cancel it if we win the election, and now voting against a deal which maybe not what they want but the alternative is No Deal, I'm unlikely to vote Lib Un Democrat anytime soon.

The referendum was only advisory so cancelling was a valid option. Similar could be said about the Swiss referendum to end free movement. That looked very dodgy for Switzerland for a while. They got kicked out of Erasmus for that vote. But the sensible Swiss realised ending free movement isn't really practical because it would mean leaving the single market. So even the Swiss were able to cancel their equivalent of Brexit. Referendums are not advisory there like they are here.

The Lib Dem votes in Parliament are only symbolic and irrelevant so there's no need to take such a principled stance.

 

[37424]

Thing is, both the Lib Dems and SNP can afford to do this, because (a) there's not enough of them to defeat the government anyway, and (b) they don't want Brexit cooties all over them, especially important for the perenially-hard-done-by SNP, seeking to maximise anti-Westminster ill-feeling as per usual.

It's an absolutely terrible deal, but the risk of no deal is even worse. It has to be passed.

But of course they could just abstain, as for the Deal I wouldn't class it as terrible, I think its up to the country to make the best of it, and in particular lets see what happens with trade deals with other countries, its a opportunity to call out Brexiteers if that doesn't go well or admit we were wrong if it does.

Yes the referendum was advisory but the government was expected to act on it. The Lib Dems whole attitude to referendum stank in my view, I was happy to accept the result the only thing that wasn't acceptable to me was No Deal as that wasn't on the table at the time of the referendum despite what some Hard Brexiteers said

 

[Journeyman]

But of course they could just abstain, as for the Deal I wouldn't class it as terrible, I think its up to the country to make the best of it, and in particular lets see what happens with trade deals with other countries, its a opportunity to call out Brexiteers if that doesn't go well or admit we were wrong if it does.

Yes the referendum was advisory but the government was expected to act on it. The Lib Dems whole attitude to referendum stank in my view, I was happy to accept the result the only thing that wasn't acceptable to me was No Deal as that wasn't on the table at the time of the referendum despite what some Hard Brexiteers said

I've accepted that Remain lost the vote, and that it had to be honoured. I'm just depressed about it all at the moment, because all I can see is what we're about to lose, and all of our dealings with Europe are going to get more difficult and more expensive, for absolutely no gain. The whole aftermath has been abysmally handled by just about every politician.

I fear for Scotland's future. I'm an Englishman who lives in Scotland, and I find the rise of hardcore nationalism here to be really, really unpleasant. Scotland's links with rUK are far more economically and culturally important than our links to the EU, and I don't consider the breakup of the UK to be an acceptable price to pay for Scotland rejoining the EU. It will result in a much harder border with England that will have devastating economic effects on a lot of people and places. Hardly surprising the SNP are being awkward, though. It forwards their agenda, regardless of how bad that would be for your average Scot, and diverts attention away from how spectacularly useless they've been in Government.

 

[radamfi]

I fear for Scotland's future. I'm an Englishman who lives in Scotland, and I find the rise of hardcore nationalism here to be really, really unpleasant. Scotland's links with rUK are far more economically and culturally important than our links to the EU, and I don't consider the breakup of the UK to be an acceptable price to pay for Scotland rejoining the EU. It will result in a much harder border with England that will have devastating economic effects on a lot of people and places. Hardly surprising the SNP are being awkward, though. It forwards their agenda, regardless of how bad that would be for your average Scot, and diverts attention away from how spectacularly useless they've been in Government.

My partner is from Scotland and we are considering retiring there, but I'm reluctant to move there if it isn't in the EU. Ireland will have to be the choice if Scotland stays outside the EU. It would be great if Scotland joined the EU as we would be able to live near her family.

 

[Journeyman]

My partner is from Scotland and we are considering retiring there, but I'm reluctant to move there if it isn't in the EU. Ireland will have to be the choice if Scotland stays outside the EU. It would be great if Scotland joined the EU as we would be able to live near her family.

I'm as Remain as they come, but Scotland being in the EU and England being outside would cause absolutely massive problems, and I don't even want to think about how they'd be handled. I don't consider EU membership for Scotland being worth the hassle - 60% of Scotland's trade is with rUK, and geographically Scotland is far more distant from continental Europe than the south of England is. I think the best hope for all of us is a gradual return to closer relations with the EU, but Scotland rejoining and England staying out would be just about the worst possible outcome. None of the conditions which make the NI solution work apply in Scotland, and a fully-fledged land border with customs controls would be a nightmare.

 

[radamfi]

I'm as Remain as they come, but Scotland being in the EU and England being outside would cause absolutely massive problems, and I don't even want to think about how they'd be handled. I don't consider EU membership for Scotland being worth the hassle - 60% of Scotland's trade is with rUK, and geographically Scotland is far more distant from continental Europe than the south of England is. I think the best hope for all of us is a gradual return to closer relations with the EU, but Scotland rejoining and England staying out would be just about the worst possible outcome. None of the conditions which make the NI solution work apply in Scotland, and a fully-fledged land border with customs controls would be a nightmare.

I'm sure there will still be free movement between England and Scotland in any circumstance. There will also be a free trade deal between England and Scotland. If Ireland do OK under Brexit then I'm sure Scotland can after joining the EU, and they will regain the precious free movement under EU membership.

 

[37424]

I'm sure there will still be free movement between England and Scotland in any circumstance. There will also be a free trade deal between England and Scotland. If Ireland do OK under Brexit then I'm sure Scotland can after joining the EU, and they will regain the precious free movement under EU membership.

There is no doubt the English/Scottish Border and movement of goods between them would be a big issue with a Scotland in the EU but I think quite a lot of companies could be attracted to a Scotland in the EU from England and Wales. How could you do a free trade deal with Scotland if its an EU country other than on the existing EU trade deal?

 

[Journeyman]

I'm sure there will still be free movement between England and Scotland in any circumstance. There will also be a free trade deal between England and Scotland. If Ireland do OK under Brexit then I'm sure Scotland can after joining the EU, and they will regain the precious free movement under EU membership.

I don't think you understand the situation. If Scotland is in the EU and England isn't, all trade between the two countries would have to be under the terms of the EU deal that's just been agreed. Scotland, as an EU member, won't have freedom to make its own trade deal with England.

The solution adopted for Ireland keeps Northern Ireland in the single market and customs union so the border can be maintained as an open one. The border is now located in the Irish Sea, so it's effectively invisible to anyone crossing from NI to RoI. You can't apply that to Scotland. There's no escaping the fact that you'd have to have a proper customs border between Scotland and England if an independent Scotland joins the EU. We might retain some sort of freedom of movement, as we have with Ireland, but trade and business will face a whole heap of extra obstacles, and Scotland will face a huge heap of additional problems with its biggest neighbour.

How could you do a free trade deal with Scotland if its an EU country other than on the Existing EU trade deal?

Exactly, you can't. One of the biggest arguments in favour of Brexit was that EU membership locks you into EU trade deals, and you can't do any of your own. Scotland won't get an exemption to that under any circumstances, as it'll be seen as a threat to the integrity of the Single Market.

 

[radamfi]

There is no doubt the English/Scottish Border and movement of goods between them would be a big issue with a Scotland in the EU but I think quite a lot of companies could be attracted to a Scotland in the EU from England and Wales.

A huge amount of traffic crosses the customs borders between Switzerland and its neighbours, way busier than the England/Scotland border.

How could you do a free trade deal with Scotland if its an EU country other than on the Existing EU trade deal?

I'm talking about the existing deal.

I don't think you understand the situation. If Scotland is in the EU and England isn't, all trade between the two countries would have to be under the terms of the EU deal that's just been agreed. Scotland, as an EU member, won't have freedom to make its own trade deal with England.

I'm talking about the existing deal.

 

[Journeyman]

A huge amount of traffic crosses the customs borders between Switzerland and its neighbours, way busier than the England/Scotland border.


I'm talking about the existing deal.

Switzerland is fully compliant with all EU standards and plays by the rules of the Single Market. England is quite possibly going to deviate from that. The existing deal will result in customs infrastructure and checks on the Scotland/England border, something that has never happened before.

 

[radamfi]

Switzerland is fully compliant with all EU standards and plays by the rules of the Single Market. England is quite possibly going to deviate from that. The existing deal will result in customs infrastructure and checks on the Scotland/England border, something that has never happened before.

England should rejoin the single market under Scottish independence. It would be completely wrong for England to blackmail Scotland into staying in the UK and lose its great opportunity to join the EU.

 

[Journeyman]

England will have to rejoin the single market under Scottish independence. It would be completely wrong for England to blackmail Scotland into staying in the UK and lose its great opportunity to join the EU.

Good luck with that. There's no way in a million years that England will accept rejoining the SM. All this will achieve is a constitutional crisis the likes of which we've never seen. I personally don't even remotely have the appetite for that, so if another indyref is held, it's a no from me. Again.

 

[radamfi]

There's no way in a million years that England will accept rejoining the SM.

Why are you so sure about that? Only a few posts ago you said you hope for "closer relations with the EU". Scotland leaving the UK would be a huge excuse for the UK government to say that they are staying outside the EU but re-joining the single market to make the new relationship with Scotland work. As it stands at the moment, Scotland don't get independence, they lose free movement and are out of the EU. There has to be some compensation for the Scots.

 

[Journeyman]

Why are you so sure about that? Only a few posts ago you said you hope for "closer relations with the EU". Scotland leaving the UK would be a huge excuse for the UK government to say that they are staying outside the EU but re-joining the single market to make the new relationship with Scotland work. As it stands at the moment, Scotland don't get independence, they lose free movement and are out of the EU. There has to be some compensation for the Scots.

I think it's blindingly obvious that the Brexit negotiations will be a Sunday School picnic compared to the acrimonious chaos that will result from trying to unravel 300 years of extremely close relations and agreements, most of which aren't in writing. The Tories made ending Freedom of Movement a massive big deal in the Brexit negotiations, and have withdrawn from everything that requires FoM as a condition of membership. This has clearly gone down well with English voters who view it as a victory, and all I can see is the mother of all standoffs between the SNP and the Tories. There's no way the current government in Westminster would back down on that, Brexit is all about controlling immigration and doing independent trade deals, and they'd throw Scotland to the wolves rather than compromise on that. Add into the mix the SNP's determination to play the victim and act hard done by, and that's a toxic can of worms I don't even want to open.

I do want closer links with the EU again, but I think they have to evolve UK-wide over time, as people come to recognise the benefits they will bring. There's no way you can just force the issue, and expect England to give up everything they've supposedly fought for.

If a (legitimate) Scottish indyref is held, I'll have to accept the result, but I'm of the opinion that independence will be much like Brexit - an enormously acrimonious and damaging process that will bring precious little gain at enormous cost. I can't face it, to be honest.

 

[radamfi]

and they'd throw Scotland to the wolves rather than compromise on that.

If that's the case then the UK doesn't deserve to hang onto Scotland. It would show utter contempt for the Scots.

 

[Journeyman]

If that's the case then the UK doesn't deserve to hang onto Scotland. It would show utter contempt for the Scots.

It depends what they vote for. I think a lot of people in Scotland consider the Union to be more important than EU membership, and the number of people who think that surprised the SNP. Although support for independence has risen and there's currently a (small) majority in favour of it, it's not inevitable that another indyref would be won, and it could go either way, on a similarly close margin to the Brexit vote. After years and years of constant campaigning for independence, I'm heartily sick of it as a political issue, and it really, really needs to be put to rest, at least for a while, until we're 100% clear what impact the Brexit deal will have. Another referendum with a 48/52 outcome will just result in more division and hatred, with the arguments going on for years, and honestly...do we really need that? Can we please just stop with all of this? I really, really don't want there to ever be a referendum on anything in this country again, ever.

 

[Cowley]

I know that it’s a bit hard to keep this subject separate but just a reminder that some of the discussion on Scotland would probably be better in this thread:

Scotland post-Brexit - what happens next?

As there were a fair few Scottish independence conversations going on in the Brexit thread I thought it'd be useful to create a new one to discuss where Scotland goes from here and how it may happen (or not!) Personally I'm not a believer in re-running referenda in order to get the 'right'...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks all.

 

[Spamcan81]

More downsides to Johnson's "terrific" deal.

Brexit: UK sausage makers face EU export ban

Meat producers seek clarity over rules that mean some products cannot be exported to the EU under the trade deal.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Chester1]

Edit - Posted in wrong thread.

 

[SS4]

Boris knew exactly what he was doing by stalling for months and months before coming up with a deal that effectively cannot be voted against because no deal would be worse.

We (realistically that is the press) should be asking why we are voting on a deal one day ahead of the end of the transition period instead of months? But they're suckling at the Tory teat so it's never going to happen

 

[Journeyman]

Boris knew exactly what he was doing by stalling for months and months before coming up with a deal that effectively cannot be voted against because no deal would be worse.

We (realistically that is the press) should be asking why we are voting on a deal one day ahead of the end of the transition period instead of months? But they're suckling at the Tory teat so it's never going to happen

I can't help thinking that Boris would have gone for no deal if Trump had won a second term. It's only after he didn't that Boris realised he'd have to try and salvage something, and he's deliberately run down the clock in an attempt to avoid people realising what a complete pile of junk we've been sold. We're too busy being relieved we got a deal at all, to realise just how much worse that deal is than what we had before.

 

[SS4]

I can't help thinking that Boris would have gone for no deal if Trump had won a second term. It's only after he didn't that Boris realised he'd have to try and salvage something, and he's deliberately run down the clock in an attempt to avoid people realising what a complete pile of junk we've been sold. We're too busy being relieved we got a deal at all, to realise just how much worse that deal is than what we had before.

Oh definitely, and it's likely the deal is better than no deal but what frustrates me is that the question of whether or not he ran down the clock simply isn't put to him. I'm sure we used to have journalists that asked hard questions but now we seem to just have yes men.

 

[Cowley]

I can't help thinking that Boris would have gone for no deal if Trump had won a second term. It's only after he didn't that Boris realised he'd have to try and salvage something, and he's deliberately run down the clock in an attempt to avoid people realising what a complete pile of junk we've been sold. We're too busy being relieved we got a deal at all, to realise just how much worse that deal is than what we had before.

I think that’s very much a distinct possibility.
Trump losing was a complete game changer as far as Boris was concerned (although I’m sure that he saw it coming).
Boris blows with the wind and that’s exactly what he’s doing now.
He’s got his wet finger in the air and he’s having a good think about what the best move for him in all of this is next.
That tactic has certainly worked for him up to this point in his rise to the top, so I don’t see him changing his methods on that front.