Brexit matters

[nlogax]

There will also be distractions, Patel has started talking about the death penalty. Its very unlikely to happen but very useful to gain attention.

From what I've seen many of the same people who clamoured for Brexit are gunning for this since a complete random on social media suggested Patel was looking into it. I'm half expecting further non-proposals for the return of workhouses, national tap water defluoridation and mandatory smoking in pubs.

 

[21C101]

The Remainer argument now seems to boil down to the fear that Brexit leaves us naked before the Wicked Tories, who, freed from the shackles of EU law, will send children up chimneys and bring back workhouses; because the British People are too stupid to vote for progressive governments and will just vote for who the Daily Mail instructs them to.

 

[nlogax]

The Remainer argument now seems to boil down to the fear that Brexit leaves us naked before the Wicked Tories, who, freed from the shackles of EU law, will send children up chimneys and bring back workhouses; because the British People are too stupid to vote for progressive governments and will just vote for who the Daily Mail instructs them to.

Spectacularly hilarious strawman.

 

[bspahh]

The Remainer argument now seems to boil down to the fear that Brexit leaves us naked before the Wicked Tories, who, freed from the shackles of EU law, will send children up chimneys and bring back workhouses; because the British People are too stupid to vote for progressive governments and will just vote for who the Daily Mail instructs them to.

I'm worried about the Wicked Tories, who, freed from the shackles of EU law, will spend government money on contracts where the most important factors are whether you are a Conservative party donor, related to a minister, or landlord of the minister's local, and where the money ends up in a non-domiciled tax haven.

 

[Dave1987]

The Remainer argument now seems to boil down to the fear that Brexit leaves us naked before the Wicked Tories, who, freed from the shackles of EU law, will send children up chimneys and bring back workhouses; because the British People are too stupid to vote for progressive governments and will just vote for who the Daily Mail instructs them to.

I believe BoJo said "major changes are coming". This is the man who gave out £20m in contracts to a "middleman" to source PPE and over £200m to a jewellery firm in California who had never actually made PPE before (and who messed it up as the PPE was unusable by the NHS) but could not bring himself to extend free school meals to British children which cost a fraction of all of that. Tens of billions of £'s to Deloitte for NHS contracts during the pandemic, pure coincidence that the head of Deloitte also happens to be a big Tory party donor. Yeah I'm concerned what they are capable of freed of the shackles of EU law.

 

[radamfi]

How come there is no awareness of the VAT changes which make it prohibitive for most small online retailers to sell to the UK from 1 January?

 

[edwin_m]

The Remainer argument now seems to boil down to the fear that Brexit leaves us naked before the Wicked Tories, who, freed from the shackles of EU law, will send children up chimneys and bring back workhouses; because the British People are too stupid to vote for progressive governments and will just vote for who the Daily Mail instructs them to.

Seeing as many of us can't see what other "benefit" Brexit brings, the suspicion must be that someone is planning either this or some way of enriching their cronies.

There will also be distractions, Patel has started talking about the death penalty. Its very unlikely to happen but very useful to gain attention.

Something I believe no EU member state can introduce...

 

[Spamcan81]

How come there is no awareness of the VAT changes which make it prohibitive for most small online retailers to sell to the UK from 1 January?

That's something that HMG has sneaked in and has received very little publicity. IIRC companies like Amazon are also going to need to stock everything in a UK warehouse rather than deliver it from a European warehouse under associated rules. Could well mean certain items no longer being available.

Seeing as many of us can't see what other "benefit" Brexit brings, the suspicion must be that someone is planning either this or some way of enriching their cronies.

Something I believe no EU member state can introduce...

This current shower seem to exists purely for self enrichment and that of their cronies. No wonder they wanted to be out of the EU and its competitive tendering rules and proposed tax haven rules.

 

[backontrack]

There will also be distractions, Patel has started talking about the death penalty. Its very unlikely to happen but very useful to gain attention.

I should be angrier about this - or at least more shocked - but, to be quite frank - considering the policies of the DWP, the Home Office, the Treasury...I'd argue that we've already had a death penalty in England for ten years.

 

[najaB]

I'm worried about the Wicked Tories, who, freed from the shackles of EU law, will continue to spend government money on contracts where the most important factors are whether you are a Conservative party donor, related to a minister, or landlord of the minister's local, and where the money ends up in a non-domiciled tax haven.

Fixed that for you.

 

[radamfi]

That's something that HMG has sneaked in and has received very little publicity. IIRC companies like Amazon are also going to need to stock everything in a UK warehouse rather than deliver it from a European warehouse under associated rules. Could well mean certain items no longer being available.

I just looked into this more and bizarrely it seems that a lot of people first found out about this from William Shatner. The UK will be unique in making exporters responsible for collecting the VAT. Not only that, there's a fee, no wonder small retailers won't deliver to the UK any more. This sounds like UK protectionism. What if every country did this? Each retailer would have to have a VAT account with each country. The EU deal should have dealt with this.

 

[backontrack]

Fixed that for you.

It's like the Panama Papers never happened.

 

[21C101]

Spectacularly hilarious strawman.

The subsequent responses suggest otherwise....

 

[nlogax]

The subsequent responses suggest otherwise....

They're based in reality. There's a real likelihood that the UK government will do some pretty unpleasant things in coming years. Your examples take them up to daft Dickensian extremes which no-one is suggesting. Try exploring the possibilities that exist based upon government statements, policies and the lessons of recent history.

 

[alex397]

There will also be distractions, Patel has started talking about the death penalty. Its very unlikely to happen but very useful to gain attention.

I hope she isn’t talking about this again.

I remember she talked about it on BBC Question Time in 2011, and made herself look very ill informed, especially with Ian Hislop there who rightfully informed her how stupid it would be. A few years later in 2016 she said she no longer supports it.

Has she gone back on that now? I really hope not.

 

[21C101]

They're based in reality. There's a real likelihood that the UK government will do some pretty unpleasant things in coming years. Your examples take them up to daft Dickensian extremes which no-one is suggesting. Try exploring the possibilities that exist based upon government statements, policies and the lessons of recent history.

The examples were there to make a point, not be taken literally, but I don't think that really needs explaining.

The point remains that what is driving much of the remainer sentiment here is fear of what a UK government without it's hands tied by European Law might do, which in turn is based on fear that the UK electorate will elect a government that is minded to do it (in that context, the death penalty is topical today).

In other words, a lack of trust in the British people to do the "right thing" in the ballot box and a wish to tie their hands to stop such reactionary tendencies.

In that context, the relentless negativity of the remain campaign - with almost no attempt to make a concrete positive case for EU membership - starts to make sense, as - at it's core - for many, remain was never really about the EU, other than using the EU as a vehicle to deliver policies that the UK electorate couldn't be persuaded to support in the ballot box; and glorifying the EU as an idol that represented those policies while sweeping its many shortcomings under the carpet.

 

[Pinza-C55]

That's something that HMG has sneaked in and has received very little publicity. IIRC companies like Amazon are also going to need to stock everything in a UK warehouse rather than deliver it from a European warehouse under associated rules. Could well mean certain items no longer being available.



This current shower seem to exists purely for self enrichment and that of their cronies. No wonder they wanted to be out of the EU and its competitive tendering rules and proposed tax haven rules.

Won't that mean more jobs in UK warehouses ?

 

[edwin_m]

The examples were there to make a point, not be taken literally, but I don't think that really needs explaining.

The point remains that what is driving much of the remainer sentiment here is fear of what a UK government without it's hands tied by European Law might do, which in turn is based on fear that the UK electorate will elect a government that is minded to do it (in that context, the death penalty is topical today).

In other words, a lack of trust in the British people to do the "right thing" in the ballot box and a wish to tie their hands to stop such reactionary tendencies.

In that context, the relentless negativity of the remain campaign - with almost no attempt to make a concrete positive case for EU membership - starts to make sense, as - at it's core - for many, remain was never really about the EU, other than using the EU as a vehicle to deliver policies that the UK electorate couldn't be persuaded to support in the ballot box; and glorifying the EU as an idol that represented those policies while sweeping its many shortcomings under the carpet.

The record of lies and deception by those now running the government makes it difficult to believe any of their promises. And the hopelessness of the Remain campaign and the Corbyn Labour party left a situation where enough people saw the Tories as the least worst choice that they ended up being elected by a large majority (of seats but not of votes). In our imperfect democracy that confers far more power than in most countries where checks and balances are better developed. Here we only have the House of Lords.

The death penalty wasn't in the manifesto, just as our manner of leaving wasn't defined in the referendum campaign. So you can't claim either was supported at the ballot box.

 

[Journeyman]

The death penalty wasn't in the manifesto, just as our manner of leaving wasn't defined in the referendum campaign. So you can't claim either was supported at the ballot box.

We're still members of the Council of Europe, and we're bound by human rights legislation as a result. The death penalty is banned in all member states, so we'd have to leave to reintroduce it, which would be a seriously bad move.

The only country in Europe to retain the death penalty is Belarus. Trust me, that's not a nation you want to emulate or admire.

 

[najaB]

Won't that mean more jobs in UK warehouses ?

Only if the sales in the UK market offset the duplication of costs. If they don't then it would make sense to exit the market.

 

[dgl]

I just looked into this more and bizarrely it seems that a lot of people first found out about this from William Shatner. The UK will be unique in making exporters responsible for collecting the VAT. Not only that, there's a fee, no wonder small retailers won't deliver to the UK any more. This sounds like UK protectionism. What if every country did this? Each retailer would have to have a VAT account with each country. The EU deal should have dealt with this.

iirc big online retailers in the EU already have to charge the VAT of where the item is being shipped to, Thomann Musikhaus have always charged me UK VAT rather than the 19% German VAT and have a UK VAT number, yet they have only one warehouse in Treppendorf, Germany.

 

[Journeyman]

Won't that mean more jobs in UK warehouses ?

More low-paid employment where people are constantly monitored and have to pee in plastic bottles because they don't get proper toilet breaks, and are bullied into meeting ridiculous targets just to make the richest man in the world even richer.

Excuse me if I'm hesitant to celebrate that particular Brexit dividend.

 

[Spamcan81]

I just looked into this more and bizarrely it seems that a lot of people first found out about this from William Shatner. The UK will be unique in making exporters responsible for collecting the VAT. Not only that, there's a fee, no wonder small retailers won't deliver to the UK any more. This sounds like UK protectionism. What if every country did this? Each retailer would have to have a VAT account with each country. The EU deal should have dealt with this.

I think at the same time they've scrapped the £18(?) exemption limit for small items. I've occasionally bought steam sound CDs from a guy in Australia under that exemption so looks like that source will dry up.

Won't that mean more jobs in UK warehouses ?

If the item is a big enough seller then I'd imagine it's already stocked in the UK. If it's a niche item then I doubt they'll bother stocking where demand is low.

 

[Pinza-C55]

More low-paid employment where people are constantly monitored and have to pee in plastic bottles because they don't get proper toilet breaks, and are bullied into meeting ridiculous targets just to make the richest man in the world even richer.

Excuse me if I'm hesitant to celebrate that particular Brexit dividend.

So the answer is yes it will mean more jobs, even if they are minimum wage ? Thanks.

 

[Journeyman]

So the answer is yes it will mean more jobs, even if they are minimum wage ? Thanks.

I suspect it'll be scant compensation for the thousands of very well paid jobs we'll lose, because the deal we have doesn't cover services, and we've lost passporting for the financial industry.

 

[najaB]

So the answer is yes it will mean more jobs, even if they are minimum wage ? Thanks.

New jobs, not necessarily more jobs.

 

[bspahh]

So the answer is yes it will mean more jobs, even if they are minimum wage ? Thanks.

You might end up buying the same things from a UK warehouse. The price is likely to go up, as there will be extra stock just for the UK market. Its a smaller market, so there are fewer economies of scale. If the price is higher, will customers still pay?

You might also find that its no longer economic to sell those goods to the UK. This has happened for William Shatner's online shop

https://twitter.com/WilliamShatner/status/1316887009198141441

 

[yorksrob]

British judges can make decisions. However, they can be overruled by partnership councils. They aren't the ECJ, but are based in Brussels half the time. David Allen Green commented yesterday:

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1343224452553834496

All free trade agreements are a loss of sovereignty. They are a curtailment on the right of a democracy to govern its own economy. That said, if we agree that as a democracy we need free trade deals, they have to be arbitrated.

I think that the partnership council will be jointly UK/EU, which seems to be precisely what we have been calling for, and sensible for a bi-lateral agreement.

 

[Dave1987]

You might end up buying the same things from a UK warehouse. The price is likely to go up, as there will be extra stock just for the UK market. Its a smaller market, so there are fewer economies of scale. If the price is higher, will customers still pay?

You might also find that its no longer economic to sell those goods to the UK. This has happened for William Shatner's online shop

https://twitter.com/WilliamShatner/status/1316887009198141441

Yup you wi probably get price increases due to the duplication of roles. Also what happens when other countries do exactly the same to British exports? Tit for tat trade wars only makes people poorer.

So the answer is yes it will mean more jobs, even if they are minimum wage ? Thanks.

And that is precisely what the UK has been hit so so badly by the Covid lockdowns. Pre Covid the UK economy was full of low skill, low wage, low productivity jobs. Other countries could do exactly the same to us for what our small businesses export. The UK is in a lot of debt right now and to get out of that hole it needs new highly paid, high productivity jobs, not just a few low-skill jobs in a warehouse causing prices to increase. Do you really not expect other countries to not do the same to British small exporters if they believe the British policy hurts their companies?

 

[RT4038]

The examples were there to make a point, not be taken literally, but I don't think that really needs explaining.

The point remains that what is driving much of the remainer sentiment here is fear of what a UK government without it's hands tied by European Law might do, which in turn is based on fear that the UK electorate will elect a government that is minded to do it (in that context, the death penalty is topical today).

In other words, a lack of trust in the British people to do the "right thing" in the ballot box and a wish to tie their hands to stop such reactionary tendencies.

In that context, the relentless negativity of the remain campaign - with almost no attempt to make a concrete positive case for EU membership - starts to make sense, as - at it's core - for many, remain was never really about the EU, other than using the EU as a vehicle to deliver policies that the UK electorate couldn't be persuaded to support in the ballot box; and glorifying the EU as an idol that represented those policies while sweeping its many shortcomings under the carpet.

Sadly I think there is a similar thread in the Scottish independence / EU membership debate too.