My proposals to require people with mental & physical disabilities to wear masks

[takno]

Trying desperately not to take sides in this debate, but from an observational perspective it’s interesting to see the differences in attitudes (both official and public) in various countries. We are fairly relaxed, with no need to ‘prove’ anything. But Germany, for example, has no similar list of exemptions. In the US, transport providers got fed up with the government not formalising any rules, so made their own. All major airlines there enforce a strict ‘mask over mouth and nose’ policy, and don’t accept anyone for travel who refuses (for any reason, whether we would allow an exemption or not). The only exception is Delta, who allow maskless travel but only following a video consultation with their company health department, who will assess the claimed exemption. And in neither of these countries is there a huge level of non-adherence, at least in a transport setting. It seems allowing exemptions increases the incidence of people claiming them.

I suspect the percentage of people able and needing to claim in this country is rather higher than the percentage of people not wearing masks. People are averse to confrontation and, having been relentlessly told that masks help are afraid of infecting others, so they are just not going on public transport or in shops when they can avoid it. Certainly I'm in that position.

Obviously if they started mandating masks in even more inane places like outdoors then "compliance" would probably drop, because these people have not actually stopped existing for the convenience of legislators. Once people are not wearing a mandatory mask outdoors they would also likely stop avoiding places where they were supposed to wear them indoors, so the effect could even be outright counterproductive.

As to the situation in other countries, people may be staying home even more. I'd say that from what I've heard in most "no exceptions" countries, compliance is actually lower than here, and enforcement is even patchier. In particular there is a lot of tokenistic wearing for a few seconds, or not over the mouth going on in some countries.

As regards air travel, well over half the population of most countries don't get on a plane in any given year anyway, and this year has hardly been a good year for going abroad, so there's really been no need. If you have an exemption then far better to get a train and claim it.

 

[Whistler40145]

There should be no exemption from wearing a mask, given the current crisis. All the exemptions are excuses really. It's a thin piece of material. All the weak excuses about asthma, or some phobia are just - the dog ate my homework style of excuses.

You could even wear a mask over the tubes up your nose, if you are on oxygen, and breathing wise, if you need to be on oxygen, then you don't get much more ill than that.

Do you have difficulty in breathing wearing a mask, because unless you do, then you've absolutely no idea what it's like

 

[Wuffle]

I've noticed that many who wear masks, usually disposable or cloth, touch and adjust them and then place their hands on other surfaces or when in shops on goods
And no I don't wear a mask because I am exempt but I keep my hands in my pockets

 

[DB]

I've noticed that many who wear masks, usually disposable or cloth, touch and adjust them and then place their hands on other surfaces or when in shops on goods
And no I don't wear a mask because I am exempt but I keep my hands in my pockets

They also take them off on trains and put them on the table while they drink their coffee, or just anyway, the put them back on again if the guard appears, then take them off again...

 

[SS4]

I don't want to make masks mandatory but I cannot believe that everyone I see without a mask is exempt - there are just too many of them. But what to do? I don't have an answer but special shopping hours or a card proving exemption (similar to blue badge) would work.

I think we've gone too far down the individualistic route and should come back a bit more to the common good. That also includes distancing which iirc is more effective than masks but if I were two metres behind the usual slow and oblivious people at all times I'd spend all day shopping

 

[DB]

I don't want to make masks mandatory but I cannot believe that everyone I see without a mask is exempt - there are just too many of them. But what to do? I don't have an answer but special shopping hours or a card proving exemption (similar to blue badge) would work.

I think we've gone too far down the individualistic route and should come back a bit more to the common good. That also includes distancing which iirc is more effective than masks but if I were two metres behind the usual slow and oblivious people at all times I'd spend all day shopping

The "common good" being wearing masks (for which there is no evidence of any benefit), presumably?

 

[SS4]

The "common good" being wearing masks (for which there is no evidence of any benefit), presumably?

Yes. You're calling for evidence of a disease who's effects are fairly unknown. It should not be used as a replacement for hand washing or distancing

Oxford COVID-19 study: face masks and coverings work – act now | University of Oxford

Cloth face coverings, even homemade masks made of the correct material, are effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19 - for the wearer and those around them - according to a new study from Oxford’s Leverhulme Centre for Demographic Science.

www.ox.ac.uk

Efficacy of masks and face coverings in controlling outward aerosol particle emission from expiratory activities - PubMed

The COVID-19 pandemic triggered a surge in demand for facemasks to protect against disease transmission. In response to shortages, many public health authorities have recommended homemade masks as acceptable alternatives to surgical masks and N95 respirators. Although mask wearing is intended...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do face masks work? Here's what the science says

Experts fear making face coverings compulsory could give people false sense of security, leading them to ignore other hygiene practices

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't want to make masks mandatory but I cannot believe that everyone I see without a mask is exempt - there are just too many of them. But what to do? I don't have an answer but special shopping hours or a card proving exemption (similar to blue badge) would work.

An exemption card would work but would be unpopular.

Special shopping hours is an awful idea. Does the railway tell wheelchair users that they can only have access to an accessible toilet if they're travelling at a specific time? I think not. Why should masks be any different?

 

[DB]

Yes. You're calling for evidence of a disease who's effects are fairly unknown. It should not be used as a replacement for hand washing or distancing

Oxford COVID-19 study: face masks and coverings work – act now | University of Oxford

Cloth face coverings, even homemade masks made of the correct material, are effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19 - for the wearer and those around them - according to a new study from Oxford’s Leverhulme Centre for Demographic Science.

www.ox.ac.uk

Efficacy of masks and face coverings in controlling outward aerosol particle emission from expiratory activities - PubMed

The COVID-19 pandemic triggered a surge in demand for facemasks to protect against disease transmission. In response to shortages, many public health authorities have recommended homemade masks as acceptable alternatives to surgical masks and N95 respirators. Although mask wearing is intended...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do face masks work? Here's what the science says

Experts fear making face coverings compulsory could give people false sense of security, leading them to ignore other hygiene practices

www.telegraph.co.uk

We've been through all of these before and they are nonsense - have a read of the masks thread. Oxford University does itself no credit by backing the first one: it claims to show a benefit to wearing masks in public but actually only looked at just four studies (details on P7 of the full report), all in healthcare settings, three of which appeared to show a benefit. I hope I don't need to explain why healthcare settings and the bogroll aisle at Tesco are in no way comparable.

That one also contains the memorable phrase:

The lack of clear recommendations for the general public and low uptake of wearing face masks and coverings may be attributed to: (i) over-reliance on an evidence-based medicine approach

Quite how any study claiming that 'over-reliance on an evidence-based medicine approach' is somehow bad can claim any credibility at all is a mystery.

Also, have a look at infection and death graphs for individual countries and see if you can spot whether and where mask mandates were made - you won't be able to, and in a number of cases the rates actually increased following mask mandation, i.e.they are at best having no impact in reducing cases and might (not proven) actually be contributing to an increase.

 

[SS4]

An exemption card would work but would be unpopular.

Special shopping hours is an awful idea. Does the railway tell wheelchair users that they can only have access to an accessible toilet if they're travelling at a specific time? I think not. Why should masks be any different?

It [a card] would be unpopular but I see it being the best method.

Special shopping hours probably won't work in retrospect - it's a good point you raise.

Do any other forum members know a good way to reduce the number of people not wearing face coverings whilst probably not exempt? And remember it doesn't matter if you agree with the law or not it is law

 

[DB]

An exemption card would work but would be unpopular.

Well, it wouldn't really as the NHS does not have the capacity to validate all the requests, some of which (the mental health ones) would require further time talking to the person - and there are non-medical reasons which would render it unworkable.

 

[yorkie]

Yes. You're calling for evidence of a disease who's effects are fairly unknown. It should not be used as a replacement for hand washing or distancing

Oxford COVID-19 study: face masks and coverings work – act now | University of Oxford

Cloth face coverings, even homemade masks made of the correct material, are effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19 - for the wearer and those around them - according to a new study from Oxford’s Leverhulme Centre for Demographic Science.

www.ox.ac.uk

Efficacy of masks and face coverings in controlling outward aerosol particle emission from expiratory activities - PubMed

The COVID-19 pandemic triggered a surge in demand for facemasks to protect against disease transmission. In response to shortages, many public health authorities have recommended homemade masks as acceptable alternatives to surgical masks and N95 respirators. Although mask wearing is intended...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do face masks work? Here's what the science says

Experts fear making face coverings compulsory could give people false sense of security, leading them to ignore other hygiene practices

www.telegraph.co.uk

But none of this proves the real-world effectiveness of mask mandates.

The evidence so far is very wishy-washy and theoretical, based on lab studies and not based on what actually happens in reality.

The reality is that many nations that have strict mask mandates end up with cases shooting up shortly after the mask mandate is introduced (italy is a good example of this); if the mask mandate was any use you would not expect to see such increases.

An exemption card would work but would be unpopular.

And overburden GPs or whoever is expected to administer them.

This is all old ground covered in other threads.

 

[DB]

Do any other forum members know a good way to reduce the number of people not wearing face coverings whilst probably not exempt? And remember it doesn't matter if you agree with the law or not it is law

How about just minding your own business and not obsessing over whether or not someone is doing something which has no proven benefit anyway?

 

[SS4]

Where is the proof it doesn't work? Honestly, too many people are expecting evidence on the same level as climate change or MMR for a novel coronavirus

 

[DB]

Where is the proof it doesn't work? Honestly, too many people are expecting evidence on the same level as climate change or MMR for a novel coronavirus

You don't 'prove' that something doesn't work - that's not how scientific proof works. You prove the positive, not the negative, i.e. prove what does happen, not what doesn't happen - and there is no evidence at all that masks reduce cases (as both Yorkie and I have pointed out, there is evidence suggesting that they might make things worse - but no follow-up studies are ever done on this as it doesn't suit the political agenda).

 

[BJames]

Where is the proof it doesn't work? Honestly, too many people are expecting evidence on the same level as climate change or MMR for a novel coronavirus

Why is it unreasonable to expect evidence? It's been over a year since the first case, and all I'm seeing is increased cases, not less cases, despite the mask mandates. In terms of "how to get more compliance" as you asked earlier, could you direct me to some evidence that suggests compliance is actually low?

 

[SS4]

You don't 'prove' that something doesn't work - that's not how scientific proof works. You prove the positive, not the negative, i.e. prove what does happen, not what doesn't happen - and there is no evidence at all that masks reduce cases (as both Yorkie and I have pointed out, there is evidence suggesting that they might make things worse - but no follow-up studies are ever done on this as it doesn't suit the political agenda).

Sorry, you're right. Burden of proof would be to show that masks work as it's the positive case.

Honestly you raise good points and I'm sorry if I came across as contrary or angry

 

[DB]

Sorry, you're right. Burden of proof would be to show that masks work as it's the positive case.

Honestly you raise good points and I'm sorry if I came across as contrary or angry

No problem!

Seriously though, do have a read of the masks thread - the goverment have been very good at pushing the mask message as if the benefit is proven beyond doubt, which just isn't the case when looking beyond the headlines.

 

[SS4]

Why is it unreasonable to expect evidence? It's been over a year since the first case, and all I'm seeing is increased cases, not less cases, despite the mask mandates. In terms of "how to get more compliance" as you asked earlier, could you direct me to some evidence that suggests compliance is actually low?

One year is next to no time for an effective study, especially on something so complex. Increased cases is not proof the mask policy doesn't work - it's possible it is working but we don't see it because it's slowing the rate rather than stopping it dead in its tracks. Or it's having no effect or it's having a detrimental effect.

I don't have evidence to low compliance. I'm not even going to try and say that my observations are even close to evidence but from what I've seen there'd have to be an unbelievably high number of people with disabilities. I don't think we'll ever get reliable compliance figures as (again only my own observation so please do not think I'm citing hard fact) people aren't challenged on it very often.

Can I just say though I appreciate the forum members for having a different view. I may not agree in full but it's a pleasure to see some other points of view put across well

 

[DB]

One year is next to no time for an effective study, especially on something so complex. Increased cases is not proof the mask policy doesn't work - it's possible it is working but we don't see it because it's slowing the rate rather than stopping it dead in its tracks. Or it's having no effect or it's having a detrimental effect.

That might possibly apply if just looking at one country or in one situation (public transport, shops, etc), although even then it would be expected that a change in the graph trajectory would probably be visible. However, when looked at across the multiple countries which have gone down this route there would be evidence if it was slowing infections - it's a large enough dataset that this would show up. And if anything, the evidence tends to indicate that if they are having any effect it is probably to make things worse.

 

[UP13]

Why do you find it shameful to wear a mask?

Wearing a mask in a relatively uncrowded street gives the impression of paranoia.

Round here people who wear masks in wide open spaces where there is hardly anybody else get just as strange looks as those who don't wear masks inside shops.

 

[py_megapixel]

Wearing a mask in a relatively uncrowded street gives the impression of paranoia.

Round here people who wear masks in wide open spaces where there is hardly anybody else get just as strange looks as those who don't wear masks inside shops.

Round here, people just assume that your hands are full or that you're walking between shops and can't be bothered taking it off.

 

[UP13]

Round here, people just assume that your hands are full or that you're walking between shops and can't be bothered taking it off.

If somebody is carrying shopping then fair enough, and I often don't take my mask off until I've got the trolley to my car.

However I see plenty of people going out for casual walks down footpaths wearing them, and even see people going for jogs and bike rides wearing them.

 

[DB]

If somebody is carrying shopping then fair enough, and I often don't take my mask off until I've got the trolley to my car.

However I see plenty of people going out for casual walks down footpaths wearing them, and even see people going for jogs and bike rides wearing them.

In cars on their own is the most bizarre!

 

[takno]

Wearing a mask in a relatively uncrowded street gives the impression of paranoia.

Round here people who wear masks in wide open spaces where there is hardly anybody else get just as strange looks as those who don't wear masks inside shops.

I think the whole mask thing has become toxic and awkward for a lot of people whether wearing one or not. I tend to assume that people wearing a mask outside are between shops or buses when in town, or specifically shielding for health reasons tbh.

 

[UP13]

In cars on their own is the most bizarre!

Saw somebody earlier have their windows open and wearing a mask in their own car. Very strange.

 

[py_megapixel]

If somebody is carrying shopping then fair enough, and I often don't take my mask off until I've got the trolley to my car.

However I see plenty of people going out for casual walks down footpaths wearing them, and even see people going for jogs and bike rides wearing them.

That's really not something I've seen at all where I live. People don't generally seem to wear masks unless they are in a building, walking between buildings, or have their hands full having just left a building.

In cars on their own is the most bizarre!

I've seen people wearing disposable gloves in their own cars as well.
Of course, it is their decision what precautions they wish to take, but unless they're wearing gloves 24/7, and changing them whenever they touch a different surface, they probably aren't doing anything to help.

 

[UP13]

I think the whole mask thing has become toxic and awkward for a lot of people whether wearing one or not. I tend to assume that people wearing a mask outside are between shops or buses when in town, or specifically shielding for health reasons tbh.

Agreed.

After they announced tier 4, I went to my parents to drop off presents and pick up presents. All socially distances and just dropping off on drive way, but my parents and sister wore masks inside their own doorway and closed the door when I went within 10 metres and even when briefly chatting from my car window a good 15 metres away they still wore masks. They said they just wanted to be safe. If Boris hadn't announced anything they wouldn't have worn masks.

People on here say that people won't put up with it any longer, but plenty of people like my mother who take every no restriction to heart and is scared. She is a massive anti-Tory and hates Boris and thinks he's an idiot but regarding Covid every time he says jump, she says how high.

Masks are definitely driving a wedge between people.

 

[Andrew S]

There should be no exemption from wearing a mask, given the current crisis. All the exemptions are excuses really. It's a thin piece of material. All the weak excuses about asthma, or some phobia are just - the dog ate my homework style of excuses.

You could even wear a mask over the tubes up your nose, if you are on oxygen, and breathing wise, if you need to be on oxygen, then you don't get much more ill than that.

Good grief.

Others have already said plenty about this. There are certainly many legitimate reasons for exemptions. I have a friend who was physically attacked last year, the attacker used gaff tape on their face as a restraint. When they first mentioned that they had an exemption from face covering I didn't understand why, but it dawned on me when others on this forum mentioned rape incidents in this context. I realised very sharply that we can't judge others at first glance.

I wouldn't wear a scarf over my mouth. Too itchy. I can't imagine would complain that they can't breathe with a mask yet would happily cover their mouth with a scarf.

I'm not advocating actively wearing masks on cold days, but if I leave work or the shop and it's really cold I might just leave it on. I'd only do that if it was super cold, i.e. the cold bothers me more than the shame of being seen wearing a mask in a street. 99.9% of the time I am not that cold.

Again, others have commented, but why be ashamed to be seen wearing a mask? I wonder if some people simply put it on when going out, and take it off when they get home. Maybe not strictly necessary but these things quickly become habit.

Wearing a mask in a relatively uncrowded street gives the impression of paranoia.

Round here people who wear masks in wide open spaces where there is hardly anybody else get just as strange looks as those who don't wear masks inside shops.

I cycle along part of the Thames Path several times a week. It is very open, sparsely populated, yet plenty of people are wearing masks jogging or cycling, as well as walking. Perhaps, as above, it is just habit to put it on when going out. Perhaps also it is there ready if you suddenly reach a crowded part of the path. Even though it's outside, I've seen some people get nervous getting too close to others, so the mask may be a reassurance.

Having said all that, I'm not convinced masks are that effective either.

 

[yorkie]

Yes masks are divisive and creating all sorts of problems where none existed before. They create arguments. They deter some people (e.g. those with anxieties) from leaving the house. They cause discrimination.

The opening post in this thread demonstrates a lack of understanding that some people have on these issues.