• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Proposals to reopen Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton

Status
Not open for further replies.

21C101

Established Member
Joined
19 Jul 2014
Messages
2,555
This mad idea (reopening Meldon to Tavistock) needs to be quashed once and for ever. Meldon viaduct deserves the same fate as Belah.
Have I stumbled onto a time warp into Western Region HQ board room in the 1960s during a plenary session being addressed by Fred Margetts?

Whether or not Meldon carries trains again it won't be going anywhere, as it has been thoroughly restored and now carries thousands of walkers and cyclists. And it is listed.

And some of Margetts and Fiennes successors in Swindon did their best to quash it for ever by when being asked to price reopening by HM Government, after the Dawlish fiasco, coming up with a gold plated double track intercity signalled high speed route at a cost of £875 million, but that didn't work either as this thread testifies to.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
Given that the main flow of passenger traffic would likely be from Southampton, Portsmouth, and points along the SWML rather than from London chances are all you'd need is extra capacity (longer trains) on the existing services running out of Waterloo, but only for points West of Basingstoke. As I suspect that early days there's little need for an additional service or of London.

Longer term, when you could justify a second Plymouth service, then you're probably looking at possibly post Crossrail 2 which does create additional paths out of London. Which as you pointed out wouldn't really work from Paddington.

With a second service you could find (although extra work would be needed to create capacity for extra services on the WofE line) that it could be viable to look at trying to attract London passengers by cutting stops. By doing so it could be that you could reach Exeter sooner than the next Paddington service but leaving London later than the previous.

In the interim, but after electrification, you could look at moving some of the more minor stations to be served by extending the Basingstoke stoppers to (ideally Yeovil) but giving them a 2tph frequency. Yes those West of Salisbury would change there to get to London, likewise those West of Basingstoke.

However at ~800 passengers a day (about 400 each way), or less, at most of the stations other than the key ones, it's hardly going to inconvenience many people, however most of that inconvenience would be offset by a doubling of services for most places.

Even if you couldn't get to be "quicker" than waiting for the next service, depending on what rail passenger numbers do post Covid-19 (and long distance may increase due to people WFH more and therefore no longer needing a car for getting to work), we may find that there's as need for increasing capacity heading westwards. Whilst there's some capacity uplift possible from the Paddington semi fasts, that might not gain all that much extra space. Especially if the increased frequency may encourage more use (even though the overlap between the two is limited a lot of the often skipped stations have a much more reliable level of service).

Even if there's a fall, chances are it's only going to roll passenger numbers back by a few years and mostly during the peaks with reduced commuting.

Whilst there's likely to be risks with linking up services to for a Waterloo Plymouth service, some of that can be protected against. Firstly there could be more loops/additional redoubling, which could add a few minutes of buffer to where the services need to pass. Next up there could be small increases in padding to ensure the paths are met (for instance you could lose one stop and use the time saved).

Whilst you do gain access to the rail network by having two branches, that's not always where people want to go. For instance the Tavistock line would work if you want to get to Plymouth, heading to Exeter or London, less so (still possible, but would take a lot longer).

The fact that it didn't have a good case when only looking at local services, doesn't mean that that would also be the case when you look at a through service. Not least because the ticket prices paid are much higher, you could sell one £21 ticket rather than 14 £3.50 tickets to generate the same income, but at a lower cost. Especially given that there's the potential for the extra passengers on the existing part of the services would likely be traveling in capacity needed for the London end of the services.

At £21 (and look at how far £17 gets you from Exeter, assuming £4 for the leg from Plymouth, when heading off peak along the WofE line) you'd need about 33 passengers/hour (16 in each direction) over a 15 hour day (7am to 10pm) to generate £3 million of income (assuming that lease costs are £120,000/coach/year and you're going to run 6 coach trains and you have double that for other costs which gets you to £3 million).

Whilst that's possibly a fairly big ask, of the average ticket was £24 that falls to 28 passengers, whilst at £31 it's down at 22 passengers. Those are all prices which are fairly easy to pay for tickets going quite some distance if you miss out on the very discounted prices which there often are.

Even at £2.50 supplement for going to Plymouth on top of the existing discounted tickets (£12.50+£2.50=£15) you would only need 45 passengers (without anyone paying for first class, which given the price some would be willing to pay the extra).

At that price, even with three in a car, going from Basingstoke or Woking is going to be comparable to paying just the petrol costs and so could attract a lot of people.

Whilst the journey time would be fairly slow, you don't get stuck in traffic (which is often the case) and you don't need to stop to go to the loo (which most people should do), meaning that it's probably not that bad.
In my first years in the Navy I commuted from Littlehampton to Plymouth. At the time there were through SWT services to Plymouth from Waterloo. These were usually overtaken somewhere en route between Exeter and Plymouth. On arrival at Exeter these trains emptied as everybody changed for a faster GW service. I don't see why it would be any different with a slower through service via Oakhampton.
The SWT through trains only ever carried local passengers in my experience.
Whilst people are adverse to changing trains a huge proportion of the passengers were not from London but the South Coast, Southampton, Portsmouth etc. i suspect that the situation is that once you are forced to change once at Salisbury, saving 15 mins by another change at St Davids is not an issue.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
11,108
In my first years in the Navy I commuted from Littlehampton to Plymouth. At the time there were through SWT services to Plymouth from Waterloo. These were usually overtaken somewhere en route between Exeter and Plymouth. On arrival at Exeter these trains emptied as everybody changed for a faster GW service. I don't see why it would be any different with a slower through service via Oakhampton.
The SWT through trains only ever carried local passengers in my experience.
Whilst people are adverse to changing trains a huge proportion of the passengers were not from London but the South Coast, Southampton, Portsmouth etc. i suspect that the situation is that once you are forced to change once at Salisbury, saving 15 mins by another change at St Davids is not an issue.

However the via Okehampton services are expected to take about an hour, maybe 65-70 minutes. Even if there was a faster XC or GWR service (and many take 58-67 minutes anyway) at the right time, chances are by the time you've changed trains there would be no time saving.or more likely it would be slightly slower.

Although more recently the nearest service is the XC one and heading away from Plymouth the change is very tight and it's easy to miss because the XC service is running late.

Although if there's much of an increase in passenger numbers (which is unlikely over the next few years, but could happen over the next 20 years) the current capacity of the existing services may start to become a problem.

20 years ago the thought that we'd have the level of service that's currently provided with the extra seats provided seemed like it was unlikely to every be needed, if we see similar numbers of extra passengers in another 20 years (which would only need to be a 50% increase, rather than the 100% increase seen because of the way percentages work) then the current route is likely to have issues (maybe not between Exeter and Plymouth but in terms of those services going somewhere else that's fairly limited (for instance a service between Plymouth and Newbury wouldn't be so that useful as you probably would struggle to find a path through Reading West to go any further). However even if you did find somewhere for them to go out wouldn't be competing with the WofE services.

The other thing which is also overlooked is that Exeter St. David's isn't always the most convenient place for people to be traveling to. By having a service which runs direct to Central (as well as other key towns locally like Honiton) which are otherwise more difficult to get to from Plymouth than St. David's then it makes travel between them more attractive (even if to have the best frequency you don't always use the direct service).

Now whilst having resilience doesn't have a value in business case terms, having a different route does mean that rail is more reliable to the users than it otherwise would be.

As an example, for a time I was commuting where there was an easy route and a harder route (both routes were valid with the same ticket), 99% of the time in the morning of take the way route, however when things went wrong I could take the harder route and so was able to not be late for work (or only by a couple of minutes). By having that second route it made (for me at least) rail a more of an attractive option than if I only had the one route to take. I doubt that I would be alone in that thinking, as such (and I admit that it would be a small amount financial and would be very hard to put a price on) there could well be some who considered using rail because of that second route option.
 

Irascible

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2020
Messages
2,226
Location
Dyfneint
How much traffic modelling has been done recently for flows across Devon? ad hoc questioning of locals in my part of East Devon shows they basically just want to go to Exeter or Torbay ( a little ). What's generating this Plymouth traffic? Portsmouth-Plymouth NB surely can't be all that much these days.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
20,783
Location
Airedale
However the via Okehampton services are expected to take about an hour, maybe 65-70 minutes.
Expected by the authors who assume an average 85mph from Okehampton to Crediton. I think Sir Humphrey Appleby would have found the right adjective to describe this to his Minister :)
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
11,108
Expected by the authors who assume an average 85mph from Okehampton to Crediton. I think Sir Humphrey Appleby would have found the right adjective to describe this to his Minister :)

Was also the overall journey time cited in the NR document from a few years ago.
 
Last edited:

Noddy

Established Member
Joined
11 Oct 2014
Messages
1,213
Location
UK
Expected by the authors who assume an average 85mph from Okehampton to Crediton. I think Sir Humphrey Appleby would have found the right adjective to describe this to his Minister :)

Not stopping at Crediton according to the authors so they're hypothesising it already being at fairly high speed at that end of the run.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
However the via Okehampton services are expected to take about an hour, maybe 65-70 minutes. Even if there was a faster XC or GWR service (and many take 58-67 minutes anyway) at the right time, chances are by the time you've changed trains there would be no time saving.or more likely it would be slightly slower.

Although more recently the nearest service is the XC one and heading away from Plymouth the change is very tight and it's easy to miss because the XC service is running late.

Although if there's much of an increase in passenger numbers (which is unlikely over the next few years, but could happen over the next 20 years) the current capacity of the existing services may start to become a problem.

20 years ago the thought that we'd have the level of service that's currently provided with the extra seats provided seemed like it was unlikely to every be needed, if we see similar numbers of extra passengers in another 20 years (which would only need to be a 50% increase, rather than the 100% increase seen because of the way percentages work) then the current route is likely to have issues (maybe not between Exeter and Plymouth but in terms of those services going somewhere else that's fairly limited (for instance a service between Plymouth and Newbury wouldn't be so that useful as you probably would struggle to find a path through Reading West to go any further). However even if you did find somewhere for them to go out wouldn't be competing with the WofE services.

The other thing which is also overlooked is that Exeter St. David's isn't always the most convenient place for people to be traveling to. By having a service which runs direct to Central (as well as other key towns locally like Honiton) which are otherwise more difficult to get to from Plymouth than St. David's then it makes travel between them more attractive (even if to have the best frequency you don't always use the direct service).

Now whilst having resilience doesn't have a value in business case terms, having a different route does mean that rail is more reliable to the users than it otherwise would be.

As an example, for a time I was commuting where there was an easy route and a harder route (both routes were valid with the same ticket), 99% of the time in the morning of take the way route, however when things went wrong I could take the harder route and so was able to not be late for work (or only by a couple of minutes). By having that second route it made (for me at least) rail a more of an attractive option than if I only had the one route to take. I doubt that I would be alone in that thinking, as such (and I admit that it would be a small amount financial and would be very hard to put a price on) there could well be some who considered using rail because of that second route option.
Exeter St Davids to Plymouth via Oakhampton is 59 miles v 52 miles via Totnes.
The approach to Plymouth on the Oakhampton route once you get past Tavistock is very slow due to the curvature of the line.
Assuming you're talking about a service calling at Crediton, Oakhampton, Tavistock and Bere Alston I would think you'd be struggling to get the timing under 90 minutes with a class 159 once you allow for pathing at St Davids and on the approach to Plymouth which awkwardly comes out next to the end of the single line over the Tamar Bridge. The original LSWR route through the Plymouth suburbs is long since gone lost under housing.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
11,108
Exeter St Davids to Plymouth via Oakhampton is 59 miles v 52 miles via Totnes.
The approach to Plymouth on the Oakhampton route once you get past Tavistock is very slow due to the curvature of the line.
Assuming you're talking about a service calling at Crediton, Oakhampton, Tavistock and Bere Alston I would think you'd be struggling to get the timing under 90 minutes with a class 159 once you allow for pathing at St Davids and on the approach to Plymouth which awkwardly comes out next to the end of the single line over the Tamar Bridge. The original LSWR route through the Plymouth suburbs is long since gone lost under housing.

I'm only going on the information provided, as I've got nothing to do with the proposal. Given that both NR and this group have suggested that an hour is viable, I'd suggest that they are both looking at what can be done to improve things beyond what the existing lines allow (which may include line speed increases just because of the use of different rolling stock).

Anyway, I've previously said that such a line would likely be 20 years away, however even at 10 years away the 159's would be about 40 years old. As such it's unlikely that they would be running the services. However even if they were it's likely that they would have more power than the units running the services 5 years ago (when there was certainly a fair few Pacers and older Sprinters in use in the local area).

Also with the need to be carbon neutral by 2050, it's unlikely that any new line would be built in 15 years time (2035) without being built with wires and almost certainly not much beyond 25 years time (2045 or after) with the intermediate gap being more and more certain as you get towards the end of the gap.

Therefore any assumptions about stock should probably assume bimodal if not EMU rolling stock. These are likely to have different acceleration patterns and may even be able to use higher top speeds.
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
4,831
Location
Hope Valley
53 minutes non stop
Which, without continuous double track, overtaking loops and timetable priority over other services around Plymouth and Exeter is an irrelevant figure alongside the desire for regular local stopping services, resumed freight from Meldon, a new Okehampton Parkway, etc.
 

Trainbuff

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2011
Messages
120
Location
Plymouth
Which, without continuous double track, overtaking loops and timetable priority over other services around Plymouth and Exeter is an irrelevant figure alongside the desire for regular local stopping services, resumed freight from Meldon, a new Okehampton Parkway, etc.
True. But the 90 minutes quoted up the thread is also too slow. The longest straight in Devon is on this line and despite a check of 60mph through Crediton and Coleford (due to 20 chain curve) unless Coleford realigned. The line between Sampford Courtenay and Exeter St Davids is capable of this speed.

But that does require improving the route including the 10 miles between Coleford and Cowley Bridge.

The portion between Okehampton and Mary Tavy is able to support speeds between 60 and 75mph.

The same report (Network Rail West of Exeter) also said that the route between Meldon and Tavistock should have better foundations for double track as it is built on granite. The sections either side would require work much done on them. Though these are the sections the group says will be double. Plymouth to Tavistock and Okehampton to Exeter.

Stopping services overlaid with faster ones can run but the group has missed the opportunity to have another stopping service from Okehampton to Exeter.

They say that Okehampton is only being able to sustain 1 station and describe the present station as well sited. I will raise the problem of the traffic lights in Okehampton which are awful and Station Road itself full of parked cars. The latter might require upsetting residents by putting double yellow lines on it! Maybe Okehampton Parkway would be a better site at least for a stopping service. The best thing would be a Sourton Parkway on the junction of the A386/A30 with a good size car park. And much more room for parking and as a public transport interchange than Town station.

Freight from Meldon could be slotted between the normal service with loops at Yeoford and Okehampton as well as possibly other places. But this takes planning and commitment
 
Last edited:

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
True. But the 90 minutes quoted up the thread is also too slow. The longest straight in Devon is on this line and despite a check of 60mph through Crediton and Coleford (due to 20 chain curve) unless Coleford realigned. The line between Sampford Courtenay and Exeter St Davids is capable of this speed.

But that does require improving the route including the 10 miles between Coleford and Cowley Bridge.

The portion between Okehampton and Mary Tavy is able to support speeds between 60 and 75mph.

The same report (Network Rail West of Exeter) also said that the route between Meldon and Tavistock should have better foundations for double track as it is built on granite. The sections either side would require work much done on them. Though these are the sections the group says will be double. Plymouth to Tavistock and Okehampton to Exeter.

Stopping services overlaid with faster ones can run but the group has missed the opportunity to have another stopping service from Okehampton to Exeter.

They say that Okehampton is only being able to sustain 1 station and describe the present station as well sited. I will raise the problem of the traffic lights in Okehampton which are awful and Station Road itself full of parked cars. The latter might require upsetting residents by putting double yellow lines on it! Maybe Okehampton Parkway would be a better site at least for a stopping service. The best thing would be a Sourton Parkway on the junction of the A386/A30 with a good size car park. And much more room for parking and as a public transport interchange than Town station.

Freight from Meldon could be slotted between the normal service with loops at Yeoford and Okehampton as well as possibly other places. But this takes planning and commitment
53 mins non stop is a start to stop average of 66 mph over the just under 59 miles.
The fastest GWR service via Dawlish is scheduled for 57 mins with one stop at Newton Abbot. Thats a start to stop average of 55mph.
On the West of England service Templecombe to Exeter which is roughly the same distance as Exeter to Plymouth via Oakhampton takes 1 hr 15m on average with an average speed of 52 mph. If you applied that to Exeter to Plymouth via Oakhampton you would have a running time of 66mins.
 

Trainbuff

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2011
Messages
120
Location
Plymouth
53 mins non stop is a start to stop average of 66 mph over the just under 59 miles.
The fastest GWR service via Dawlish is scheduled for 57 mins with one stop at Newton Abbot. Thats a start to stop average of 55mph.
On the West of England service Templecombe to Exeter which is roughly the same distance as Exeter to Plymouth via Oakhampton takes 1 hr 15m on average with an average speed of 52 mph. If you applied that to Exeter to Plymouth via Oakhampton you would have a running time of 66mins.
True. The same West of England report showed a non stop speed of 49 minutes via Dawlish and I have travelled between Plymouth and Exeter on a non stop Voyager in that time. 4 minutes less than via Okehampton. The current route is the quickest but my point is there is not much in it

Of course TORS propose a time of 70 minutes with 2 stops
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
Think the problem is that if you want to maximise revenue you'd have more than 2 stops.
If its just an Exeter to Plymouth service I think it would be most if not all stations.
if its a Waterloo service I think from Exeter you'd certainly want to stop at Crediton for the interchange with the Barnstable Line, Oakhampton, Tavistock, Bere Alston and somewhere in the Plymouth Western Suburbs (Keyham or Devonport).
I think with Bere Alston you'd need to call for the Gunnislake shuttle as I don't think that post reopening Gunislake trains could run to Plymouth because of capacity issues on the GW main line in to Plymouth. The station is on such a curve that a through train wouldn't be doing much over 40 anyway I'd guess.
Even with only 2 stops a 70 min schedule would require major up grading of the existing railways stuff like Cowley bridge Junction, whatever the junction at St Budeaux is called, Weston Mill Viaduct and I guess extending double track on the main line back towards the Tamar bridge.
I think that when all the costs are added up its not going to be a goer to be honest.
 

Irascible

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2020
Messages
2,226
Location
Dyfneint
If its just an Exeter to Plymouth service I think it would be most if not all stations.
if its a Waterloo service I think from Exeter you'd certainly want to stop at Crediton for the interchange with the Barnstable Line, Oakhampton, Tavistock, Bere Alston and somewhere in the Plymouth Western Suburbs (Keyham or Devonport).

That's pretty much all stations already, other than Newton St Cyres, assuming Lydford stays closed. Not really any point in calling at Crediton if there's a following Barnstaple ( let's assume there's no need for tokens ).

Even with only 2 stops a 70 min schedule would require major up grading of the existing railways stuff like Cowley bridge Junction, whatever the junction at St Budeaux is called, Weston Mill Viaduct and I guess extending double track on the main line back towards the Tamar bridge.
I think that when all the costs are added up its not going to be a goer to be honest.

Cowley Bridge area needs rebuilding anyway at some point even if it's just for ( more ) flood prevention. You could speed up the crossover a bit ( I think it's 20 atm ) but the Banrstaple line speed off the jct is only 40, iirc. Making the up line bidirectional back to St Davids isn't really going to help if the service needs to cross to get access to Central.

£100m for Meldon viaduct. Not happening and there's other places in Devon I'd rather got £100m of railway.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
11,108
Think the problem is that if you want to maximise revenue you'd have more than 2 stops.
If its just an Exeter to Plymouth service I think it would be most if not all stations.
if its a Waterloo service I think from Exeter you'd certainly want to stop at Crediton for the interchange with the Barnstable Line, Oakhampton, Tavistock, Bere Alston and somewhere in the Plymouth Western Suburbs (Keyham or Devonport).
I think with Bere Alston you'd need to call for the Gunnislake shuttle as I don't think that post reopening Gunislake trains could run to Plymouth because of capacity issues on the GW main line in to Plymouth. The station is on such a curve that a through train wouldn't be doing much over 40 anyway I'd guess.
Even with only 2 stops a 70 min schedule would require major up grading of the existing railways stuff like Cowley bridge Junction, whatever the junction at St Budeaux is called, Weston Mill Viaduct and I guess extending double track on the main line back towards the Tamar bridge.
I think that when all the costs are added up its not going to be a goer to be honest.

Calling patterns might or might not follow what's been suggested, it may even be that some stations see a skip/stop calling pattern.

For instance you may see extra stops during the peaks if otherwise there's a long gap which would otherwise be poor for commuting. As an example Crediton to Exeter in the morning peak is 8:35 or after 9:41, as such you may add a stop of that allowed a 8:45 or 8:50 arrival to Exeter to increase passenger numbers.

Likewise leaving Exeter in the evening a 17:20 or 18:20 departure time isn't likely to be that will used, add in a 17:50 to 18:05 departure and again you'll likely attract a good number of extra passengers.

However additional services during the off peak would probably not make a big difference. Whilst a call there would make it easier to get between Barnstaple and Plymouth, again the numbers would probably be fairly low and would need to fairly tightly timetabled to be much better than going to Exeter.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,392
Calling patterns might or might not follow what's been suggested, it may even be that some stations see a skip/stop calling pattern.

For instance you may see extra stops during the peaks if otherwise there's a long gap which would otherwise be poor for commuting.

Or, no stops at all - as it’s not going to happen!!
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,392
What about if we come up with some bizarre scheme to convert 20 year old EMUs to battery operation?

Ah, but that is very likely to happen, at least in some form (maybe not a 20 year old).

 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
11,108
Or, no stops at all - as it’s not going to happen!!

Over what timeframe?

As I've said it's likely to be at least 20 years off and I suspect there was a lot of people who thought that EW Rail wouldn't happen if you asked them in 2000 and if you asked about it in 1990 (30 years) almost no-one was thinking about reopening any lines (it being not that long since lines were still being threatened with closure).
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,392
Over what timeframe?

As I've said it's likely to be at least 20 years off and I suspect there was a lot of people who thought that EW Rail wouldn't happen if you asked them in 2000 and if you asked about it in 1990 (30 years) almost no-one was thinking about reopening any lines (it being not that long since lines were still being threatened with closure).

Ok, fair point, but if it still not going to happen for 20 years (and I think that’s optimistic) there’s no point arguing about which toc going to run the services!

There were, though, lots of line reopenings being talked about in 1990, and many were built. I did some myself (Robin Hood, Snow Hill Jewellry Line).
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
3,348
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Over what timeframe?

As I've said it's likely to be at least 20 years off and I suspect there was a lot of people who thought that EW Rail wouldn't happen if you asked them in 2000 and if you asked about it in 1990 (30 years) almost no-one was thinking about reopening any lines (it being not that long since lines were still being threatened with closure).

By and large, long rural connecting lines such as the Okehampton-Tavistock section of the former LSWR route to Plymouth (and IMO the E-W line east of Bedford and the southern half of the Waverley route), cannot justify being re-opened, whereas shorter lines in or to big urban areas, have a much stronger case (see Altnabreac's criteria). There is a valid case for Tavistock-Bere Alston (-Plymouth), although I don't know how strong it is.
 

Trainbuff

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2011
Messages
120
Location
Plymouth
Think the problem is that if you want to maximise revenue you'd have more than 2 stops.
If its just an Exeter to Plymouth service I think it would be most if not all stations.
if its a Waterloo service I think from Exeter you'd certainly want to stop at Crediton for the interchange with the Barnstable Line, Oakhampton, Tavistock, Bere Alston and somewhere in the Plymouth Western Suburbs (Keyham or Devonport).
I think with Bere Alston you'd need to call for the Gunnislake shuttle as I don't think that post reopening Gunislake trains could run to Plymouth because of capacity issues on the GW main line in to Plymouth. The station is on such a curve that a through train wouldn't be doing much over 40 anyway I'd guess.
Even with only 2 stops a 70 min schedule would require major up grading of the existing railways stuff like Cowley bridge Junction, whatever the junction at St Budeaux is called, Weston Mill Viaduct and I guess extending double track on the main line back towards the Tamar bridge.
I think that when all the costs are added up its not going to be a goer to be honest.
I don't refute your logic in any way with Bere Alston. When I personally calculated possible speeds, the curvature slows the speed, as does the fact a platform is there. I got the equation from a friend of mine at Network Rail. Max non stop speed through Bere Alston in theory is 50 mph. Better than Lostwithiel!

I think the plan is double track towards Plymouth but I do not see capacity being an issue. 2 trains per hour through that that portion of Cornish main line. 3 with freight

As for constraints at Plymouth. As part of the cost there is no reason that the Platform 2 and 3 East end 'docks' could not be resignalled for passenger traffic. That would free station space as well.

The point about making as many stops as possible does slow the line down. Express trains on the current route stop only 2 or 3 times. If the line is dual between Okehampton and Exeter we have possibilities.

So with overlapping Gunnislake services as shown by TORS, though maybe not with a unit sitting at Tavistock for 40 minutes, it would be possible to run a Gunnislake stopper all stations. The express train could call at Bere Alston, Tavistock, Okehampton, Crediton.

Sourton Parkway could be added if built. There may be a chance to run an overlaid stopping service to Exeter from Okehampton should need arise.

It really depends on the stations built. Devon County had a study done for the Peninsula Rail Task Force that deliberately stopped at many stations including all in Plymouth, Bere Ferrers, Bere Alston, Lydford, Sourton parkway, Okehampton (one station either Town or Parkway), Sampford Courtenay, North Tawton, Bow, Crediton and surprisingly this came out as a very slow route. Even slower than the bus!

The transport official from DCC, described this at the time as extracting maximum revenue, but in the process reducing the attractiveness of the route. A balance needs to be struck
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
I think the plan is double track towards Plymouth but I do not see capacity being an issue. 2 trains per hour through that that portion of Cornish main line. 3 with freight

Not at peak times there's up to 4 tph. Given the line has the long single line section over the Royal Albert bridge it must be approaching capacity. The line is slow as well 40 mph from Plymouth to past Devonport then 50 mph. The current junction arrangement at St Budeaux is a 15 mph crossover and then a 25mph single turnout. This connection was put in as an emergency freight connection during world war 2. I'm unsure whether it has ever been double track.
The main line trains have to be timed for the single line section so it may be possible to sneak in a couple of Oakhampton trains in between however I think an average speed of over 60 mph for the Oakhampton trains is wishful thinking without a lot of money being spent.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
20,783
Location
Airedale
This connection was put in as an emergency freight connection during world war 2. I'm unsure whether it has ever been double track.
It was double until the LSW route was singled, or shortly after.
 

Trainbuff

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2011
Messages
120
Location
Plymouth
Not at peak times there's up to 4 tph. Given the line has the long single line section over the Royal Albert bridge it must be approaching capacity. The line is slow as well 40 mph from Plymouth to past Devonport then 50 mph. The current junction arrangement at St Budeaux is a 15 mph crossover and then a 25mph single turnout. This connection was put in as an emergency freight connection during world war 2. I'm unsure whether it has ever been double track.
The main line trains have to be timed for the single line section so it may be possible to sneak in a couple of Oakhampton trains in between however I think an average speed of over 60 mph for the Oakhampton trains is wishful thinking without a lot of money being spent.
First of all. It is Okehampton, not Oakhampton. Residents get quite annoyed by that as Okehampton is named after the river Okement! You are correct that the emergency connection was only ever single track. The SR had its own way into Plymouth built by the grandiosely named Plymouth, Devonport & South Western Junction Railway. The junction can be improved and if constructed it would likely be so. Signalling in Plymouth is 3 or 4 aspect.

On the Down (Penzance) signals are just after Plymouth station 3 aspect, Devonport 4 aspect and at Keyham. Similar exist on the Up. As the journey from the Royal Albert takes 7 minutes to Plymouth station its about 5 from St Budeaux there is still capacity. Even with pre covid I believe the theoretical maximum over the Bridge is 12 or 13 trains an hour. Even if one assumes that each of the trains at Ferry Road blocks the junction at St Budeaux for 10 minutes each on the down, that still leaves a sizeable time to feed in and out of. And of course unless there is a stopper just in front calling at Saltash these times would be significantly less.

With a 2 trains an hour in Cornwall, in each direction, as in pre covid there would be space to slot Okehampton trains in.

No one is saying it would be cheap though. Estimates are near £1bn, but far cheaper per mile than HS2! Check out the book on the Okehampton line. You will find not only gradient profiles but curvature ones too. The slowest part of the line is the currently open part to Bere Alston. The longest straight in Devon is on this line near Bow and North Tawton. I have used the formula I obtained from a railway colleague to calculate maximum speeds around a curve. The line is broadly in 4 sections for speed.

1. Plymouth to Tavistock max 55-60mph.
2. Tavistock to Meldon Viaduct 65-75mph
3. Meldon Viaduct to Sampford Courtenay 60-65mph
4. Sampford Courtenay to Exeter theoretical speed 110mph+ but in reality 90mph would be more appropriate. On this section speed checks to 55-60mph would be at Coleford junction and Crediton station but there may be others. So a running time for the 25 miles from Okehampton to Exeter of 22 minutes is theoretically possible
 
Last edited:

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
10,914
Location
Up the creek
It was double until the LSW route was singled, or shortly after.
It was opened as double track in March 1941 and was singled in 1970, probably at the same time as Bere Alston Signal Box was closed in September of that year. The section appears to have been from the ex -GWR St Budeaux East through to Bere Alston since August 1965. (Source: Signal Box Register, Volume 4: Southern Railway (Signalling Record Society, 2009).
 
Joined
18 Aug 2018
Messages
704
I'm curious how much a new 600ft ( let's include the approaches ) viaduct would cost these days ( and then how much more building it in a national park would cost too ) - especially compared with say, driving through the middle of Tavistock.

Also, anyone recosted the 30s Dawlish Avoider plan, given a fair amount of work had already been done on it ( the plan, not the execution! ).
A lot. The site is awkward and it would be well over 150m I reckon.
 

Trainbuff

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2011
Messages
120
Location
Plymouth
A lot. The site is awkward and it would be well over 150m I reckon.
Well in Summer 2014, the Network Rail West of Exeter resilience Study, stated the cost of an all singing, all dancing dual track Northern Route complete with brand new Meldon viaduct was £875m.

If you google West of Exeter Route Resilience Study (networkrail.co.uk) it will come up

There were 5 options for diversionary routes considered around Dawlish/Teignmouth. The cheapest then was £1.49bn, saving 1 minute of journey time and dearest was over £3bn.

As an additional route, with insurance policy, the Northern Route looks a bargain. Yes invest in the current route but do not think for one minute that a diversionary route would be a cheaper option. Even the cheapest would be double the cost of an entirely double track route.

The Northern route does not need to be double track all the way round either so savings could be made. Even if only just from Okehampton to Sourton single it would save excavations under the A30 and building of single track viaduct
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top