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Proposals to reopen Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton

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The Ham

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Have to say that to my mind the biggest impediment to rebuilding Waterloo to Plymouth as a full blown main line would be getting space for the trains north of Basingstoke.

With Crossrail (if it ever opens) an hourly Paddington - Reading - Newbury - Westbury - Castle Cary - Yeovil - Axminster - Honiton - Exeter - Crediton thtn alternately to Oke - Tavy - Plymouth /Barnstaple and Bideford would seem a better idea, especiall if common sense prevails and the heathrow express gets canned and replaced with four more crossrails being extended to Heathrow T5 freeing up four more fast line paths into Padd.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Tavistock Withered Arm Trainfront has a more memorable Acronym :)

Given that the main flow of passenger traffic would likely be from Southampton, Portsmouth, and points along the SWML rather than from London chances are all you'd need is extra capacity (longer trains) on the existing services running out of Waterloo, but only for points West of Basingstoke. As I suspect that early days there's little need for an additional service or of London.

Longer term, when you could justify a second Plymouth service, then you're probably looking at possibly post Crossrail 2 which does create additional paths out of London. Which as you pointed out wouldn't really work from Paddington.

With a second service you could find (although extra work would be needed to create capacity for extra services on the WofE line) that it could be viable to look at trying to attract London passengers by cutting stops. By doing so it could be that you could reach Exeter sooner than the next Paddington service but leaving London later than the previous.

In the interim, but after electrification, you could look at moving some of the more minor stations to be served by extending the Basingstoke stoppers to (ideally Yeovil) but giving them a 2tph frequency. Yes those West of Salisbury would change there to get to London, likewise those West of Basingstoke.

However at ~800 passengers a day (about 400 each way), or less, at most of the stations other than the key ones, it's hardly going to inconvenience many people, however most of that inconvenience would be offset by a doubling of services for most places.

Even if you couldn't get to be "quicker" than waiting for the next service, depending on what rail passenger numbers do post Covid-19 (and long distance may increase due to people WFH more and therefore no longer needing a car for getting to work), we may find that there's as need for increasing capacity heading westwards. Whilst there's some capacity uplift possible from the Paddington semi fasts, that might not gain all that much extra space. Especially if the increased frequency may encourage more use (even though the overlap between the two is limited a lot of the often skipped stations have a much more reliable level of service).

Even if there's a fall, chances are it's only going to roll passenger numbers back by a few years and mostly during the peaks with reduced commuting.

Whilst there's likely to be risks with linking up services to for a Waterloo Plymouth service, some of that can be protected against. Firstly there could be more loops/additional redoubling, which could add a few minutes of buffer to where the services need to pass. Next up there could be small increases in padding to ensure the paths are met (for instance you could lose one stop and use the time saved).

Whilst you do gain access to the rail network by having two branches, that's not always where people want to go. For instance the Tavistock line would work if you want to get to Plymouth, heading to Exeter or London, less so (still possible, but would take a lot longer).

The fact that it didn't have a good case when only looking at local services, doesn't mean that that would also be the case when you look at a through service. Not least because the ticket prices paid are much higher, you could sell one £21 ticket rather than 14 £3.50 tickets to generate the same income, but at a lower cost. Especially given that there's the potential for the extra passengers on the existing part of the services would likely be traveling in capacity needed for the London end of the services.

At £21 (and look at how far £17 gets you from Exeter, assuming £4 for the leg from Plymouth, when heading off peak along the WofE line) you'd need about 33 passengers/hour (16 in each direction) over a 15 hour day (7am to 10pm) to generate £3 million of income (assuming that lease costs are £120,000/coach/year and you're going to run 6 coach trains and you have double that for other costs which gets you to £3 million).

Whilst that's possibly a fairly big ask, of the average ticket was £24 that falls to 28 passengers, whilst at £31 it's down at 22 passengers. Those are all prices which are fairly easy to pay for tickets going quite some distance if you miss out on the very discounted prices which there often are.

Even at £2.50 supplement for going to Plymouth on top of the existing discounted tickets (£12.50+£2.50=£15) you would only need 45 passengers (without anyone paying for first class, which given the price some would be willing to pay the extra).

At that price, even with three in a car, going from Basingstoke or Woking is going to be comparable to paying just the petrol costs and so could attract a lot of people.

Whilst the journey time would be fairly slow, you don't get stuck in traffic (which is often the case) and you don't need to stop to go to the loo (which most people should do), meaning that it's probably not that bad.
 
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Lucan

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Perhaps I'm being dumb, but why is something calling itself "Northern Route Working Group" concerning itself with a route in the West Counttry?
 

Spamcan81

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Perhaps I'm being dumb, but why is something calling itself "Northern Route Working Group" concerning itself with a route in the West Counttry?

Because of the two routes between Exeter and Plymouth, the one via Okehampton would be the northern route.
 

Lucan

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OK, I was being dumb. I thought "Northern" referred to the North of England :s
 

21C101

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To be honest I don't see these propsals as more than interesting entertainment and their main useful purpose is to keep the concept in circulation

If the LSW gets fully reopened it will be as a largely single track railway with dynamic loops to have a capacity of about 2 each way an hour.

So 3 mile long loops around Okehampton Brentor and Bere Alston with Coleford Junction reinstated to give a fourth dynamic loop.

Plus double track at St Budeaux station to stop trains heading north blocking the Penzance main line while waiting for a late running train from Bere Alston to clear the single line, and possibly a short loop beyond the river bridge at Cowley for the same reason (or double track to Crediton if they have a bigger budget).

And no electrification.

Signalling "track circuit" block using axle coynters and the single line bits being a single block section, plus GSM-R.

To be honest the most useful thing anyone serious about reopening with some cash to spare could do is to pay for a study of Meldon Viaduct to establish once and for all if it can take trains again and if so what measures would be needed to get it up to scratch.

The newer side would get the trains with the footpath on the older side (it actually is two single track viaducts joined together).
 
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83A

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To be honest the most useful thing anyone serious about reopening with some cash to spare could do is to pay for a study of Meldon Viaduct to establish once and for all if it can take trains again and if so what measures would be needed to get it up to scratch.
In engineering often if something looks right it is right. I've always felt Meldon viaduct looks ugly and fragile.

However to the main point. As I understand it, the viaduct was already weak by the 1960's and the line over it singled. When the route was cut back it remained as a head shunt for the quarry, but only an 08 with empty wagons was allowed to traverse it. Then the track was removed altogether. I suspect it’s too far gone to bring up to rail standards and its sat in a somewhat harsh environment. However I’m not a structural engineer so I could be wrong !
 

yorksrob

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I don't think my views on this well come as any great surprise to anyone. I think it's great that the route is being kept on the agenda.

In terms of Meldon, I've always imagined some sleek, Swiss style concrete affair being built alongside the meccano set.
 

tbtc

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The thing that frustrates me here is that Okehampton could have had a regular service to Exeter without much fuss years ago (given that the Sunday service has run for some time) - it's in commuting distance, whilst it's not a top priority for re-opening, it's not a ridiculous idea to have an hourly 150 running from Okehampton into Exeter...

You seem to be unaware that this is exactly what is currently happening (well not the 150 bit, or the hourly bit). The service is due to start next May.

Oh, I'm aware that a simple service is finally going ahead - my point is that Devon could have had a regular daily service on the Okehampton branch years ago - however the tendency to try to ask for everything (with sprinkles on top) means that nothing has been built.

If you ask The Powers That Be for a shortish stub line then it might get built - Newcraighall at first, Tweedbank later, Ebbw Vale, Alloa, Larkhall, those kind of things.

Demanding something that goes beyond Okehampton all the way through Dartmoor (a fully weather proof gold plated double track electrified line with scope to accommodate diversionary services and regular freight!) makes it much easier to ignore.

I'd like to think that the kind of people obsessed with re-opening some old route would eventually learn lessons from the projects hat did get the go ahead and limit their ambitions to getting the main bits done. However, instead, they come up with mega-projects that are stupidly complicated (e.g. maybe there's merit in extending London - Uckfield services through the empty countryside to Lewes but if you cobble it into a mega-project called BML2 with a new alignment inside the M25 to Docklands, plus capacity to accommodate Brighton diversions when the BML is closed, it's too much for ay Government to ever approve... maybe there's merit in extending the current hourly DMUs on the COlne branch through to Skipton but the SELRAP proposals make that easy to dismiss because they add in an electrified line capable of taking Liverpool - Hull services as well as space for lots of long slow heavy freight... maybe there's merit in Sheffield - Deepcar but not when you attach that to a mega-project involving bringing back Woodhead...).

But why ask for something modest and realistic when you can get the crayons out and build a long wishlist of proposals...
 

daodao

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Sounds fantastic - the people proposing this project think it'd be amazing - case closed!

An "all-weather" route through Dartmoor, an area famous for its constant and predictable climate... with no mention of spending money on the line north of Exeter that is rather prone to flooding... making the SWR Waterloo services even less reliable by combining the existing single track sections with an additional three hours worth of journey on the round trip (because, of course, any Okehampton proposal requires a Waterloo service because That's How Things Were A Hundred Years Ago)...

It's funny how these kind of proposals seem to keep making things as complicated as possible to try to bamboozle you with arguments in favour - e.g. apparently there's a market for high speed buses to various nearby villages, but let's hope that nobody notices that Tavistock to Okehampton is such an insignificant market that it can't sustain a commercial minibus service - let's hope that nobody questions like "why we can't just save a billion pounds and run high quality coach service from Tavistock to Okehampton instead"? If the idea is that people in Padstow etc will "railhead" at stations on this magic new line then how come they can't similarly get a coach service to connect at an existing station on the Barnstaple/ Bere Alston lines? People in Bodmin are going to sit on a coach to Okehampton to get on a train?

The thing that frustrates me here is that Okehampton could have had a regular service to Exeter without much fuss years ago (given that the Sunday service has run for some time) - it's in commuting distance, whilst it's not a top priority for re-opening, it's not a ridiculous idea to have an hourly 150 running from Okehampton into Exeter...

...similarly, Tavistock to Bere Alston (for Plymouth) seems sensible - there's a frequent commercial bus service from Tavistock to Plymouth so there's clearly a market there, again, it's good commuter distance. For the cost of about ten miles of new track and a couple of Sprinters, we could give both Okehampton and Tavistock an hourly service to their nearest big city (i.e. an Okehampton to Exeter shuttle and a Tavistock to Plymouth shuttle) - it wouldn't be particularly complicated, it could be delivered without breaking the bank. However, the boring everyday demand for such services has been sidelined because any proposal in the area seems to be focussed on some LSWR fantasy, a grandiose scheme involving Waterloo services, being a handy diversionary route a few weekends a year... if only we could focus on short simple projects, we could have implemented them by now.

Instead, this aversion to buffer stops and apparent addiction to complicated mega-schemes means nothing actually gets done. Instead, we'll focus resources on small scale schemes like Ebbw Vale/ Fleetwood/ Ashington/ Portishead, where an unremarkable Sprinter could run along an unremarkable siding to provide a reliable means of transport for unremarkable everyday journeys (e.g. people travelling to the nearest big city) - that's the kind of market that rail actually does well at, however much it must pain a certain type of crayola-addict!
Well put. The railway re-openings that are worth doing are relatively short lines re-connecting sizeable towns to a nearby city. These are the ones that are likely to tick most boxes on Altnabreac's criteria. Tavistock to Bere Alston (with a passing loop there) may do so. Re-opening Okehampton to Crediton is already being planned. Re-opening Okehampton to Tavistock clearly doesn't, and that section of line should be left as a disused relic for evermore.
 

21C101

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In engineering often if something looks right it is right. I've always felt Meldon viaduct looks ugly and fragile.

However to the main point. As I understand it, the viaduct was already weak by the 1960's and the line over it singled. When the route was cut back it remained as a head shunt for the quarry, but only an 08 with empty wagons was allowed to traverse it. Then the track was removed altogether. I suspect it’s too far gone to bring up to rail standards and its sat in a somewhat harsh environment. However I’m not a structural engineer so I could be wrong !
There are a lot grumblings comparing with Ribblehead in terms of sixties condemnations of the viaduct.

It was strenthened a couple of times by adding bracing and no doubt this could be done again lattice structures lending themselves to it.

There are pictures of Warships and loaded stone wagons on it into the seventies.

I guess the main consideration is what the lifespan and ongoing costs would be if it is refurbished as opposed to replacement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Well put. The railway re-openings that are worth doing are relatively short lines re-connecting sizeable towns to a nearby city. These are the ones that are likely to tick most boxes on Altnabreac's criteria. Tavistock to Bere Alston (with a passing loop there) may do so. Re-opening Okehampton to Crediton is already being planned. Re-opening Okehampton to Tavistock clearly doesn't, and that section of line should be left as a disused relic for evermore.
I wouldn't go that far. Get Okehampton and Tavistock done first though, and subsequent consequent significant growth in those towns, then you are just looking at a 15 mile gap between two towns that have grown to 20,000 population, for which the infrastructure, Meldon aside, is generally in remarkably good condition, and it starts to get more do-able.
 
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daodao

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I wouldn't go that far. Get Okehampton and Tavistock done first though, and subsequent consequent significant growth in those towns, then you are just looking at a 15 mile gap between two towns that have grown to 20,000 population, for which the infrastructure, Meldon aside, is generally in remarkably good condition, and it starts to get more do-able.
It might be only 15 miles, but it would be pointless, because there is minimal demand, and it would be very expensive because of the Meldon viaduct issue. As I stated above, the objective of railway re-openings is to re-connect sizeable towns to their nearby city. It is not to undo Beeching-era closures of duplicate secondary lines. That is why re-opening the Waverley route from Edinburgh to Galashiels and Tweedbank (as a park-and-ride station for the Borders) was worthwhile, but re-opening it all the way to Carlisle would be daft.
 

paul1609

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In engineering often if something looks right it is right. I've always felt Meldon viaduct looks ugly and fragile.

However to the main point. As I understand it, the viaduct was already weak by the 1960's and the line over it singled. When the route was cut back it remained as a head shunt for the quarry, but only an 08 with empty wagons was allowed to traverse it. Then the track was removed altogether. I suspect it’s too far gone to bring up to rail standards and its sat in a somewhat harsh environment. However I’m not a structural engineer so I could be wrong !
Its not as recent as 1960 that there were concerns about Meldon Viaduct. My understanding is that in the 1920s there was concern that the design of the viaduct was inadequate to handle the dynamic load experienced when trains crossed the viaduct in high winds. This and the exposure of the site lead to a 20 mph speed limit being imposed in 1927. In 1938 the lower trusses were braced to improve the situation. During world war 2 the stanchions were weighted with concrete to weigh them and allow heavier freight trains to cross. In the 1960s the concern was that the structure was deteriorating and the line was singled before eventual closure.
Its now a scheduled monument.
I think the chances of it meeting standards required for a new railway are zilch.
 

MarkyT

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Any idea of a by-pass route for Tavistock is pure fantasy - the old-route would have to be used with a CPO to remove the offending, blocking property. My fear is this will distract from the eminently sensible proposal to reopen the line from Bere Alston to Tavistock, with a station on the outskirts of the town.
A terminating route from Plymouth could possibly get closer to Tavistock town centre than the outskirts housing development site, extending along 'Quant Park' (the trackbed path) with a new bridge over the A390 and CP of one house on the trackbed. The height is still an issue of course, although might be solvable by a lift/funicular link up to railway level. A town centre site is not essential though, considering Tavistock would primarily be a commuter source feeding Plymouth as the major employment/education/retail destination. A more central site would serve many people living within walking distance of the centre however, and permit easier interchange with existing local buses from surrounding towns and villages that already go to Tavistock.

It is immediately east of the viaduct where far more significant problems begin for a through route however, with multiple modern houses on and surrounding the trackbed through old station site, then the local authority HQ, who should be amenable to moving out or altering their buildings to suit assuming they actually support the scheme (which begs the question as to why they as the planning authority allowed the various developments on the alignment in the first place). East of that, there are a number of further private properties impinging on the old alignment within the town boundaries
 

Brush 4

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The link below is from 2015 and little progress has been made since then. The BA to Tavistock section would be under way by now, if the budget hadn't constantly increased. There is a line in the doc linked to, talking of construction commencing in early 2020. Perhaps now that Project Speed is the new way and GRIP and gold plating is being criticised by NE itself, things can return to some form of sense.

Bere Alston to Tavistock Railway Reinstatement and Associated Trails | National Infrastructure Planning (planninginspectorate.gov.uk)

Devon CC own 90% of the trackbed so far. If they do a basic reopening, like Okehampton, that would stand more chance of it happening. Improvements can come later. The middle section will just have to wait. The pressure to fill the gap will then gather momentum, as a through route, not as a seperate 15 mile trip through a remote landscape. There is remote landscape between eg. NA and Totnes or Crewkerne and Axminster.

Peoples opinions both for and against don't have the slightest bearing on whether something will or won't happen.
 

21C101

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The link below is from 2015 and little progress has been made since then. The BA to Tavistock section would be under way by now, if the budget hadn't constantly increased. There is a line in the doc linked to, talking of construction commencing in early 2020. Perhaps now that Project Speed is the new way and GRIP and gold plating is being criticised by NE itself, things can return to some form of sense.

Bere Alston to Tavistock Railway Reinstatement and Associated Trails | National Infrastructure Planning (planninginspectorate.gov.uk)

Devon CC own 90% of the trackbed so far. If they do a basic reopening, like Okehampton, that would stand more chance of it happening. Improvements can come later. The middle section will just have to wait. The pressure to fill the gap will then gather momentum, as a through route, not as a seperate 15 mile trip through a remote landscape. There is remote landscape between eg. NA and Totnes or Crewkerne and Axminster.

Peoples opinions both for and against don't have the slightest bearing on whether something will or won't happen.
Hear Hear.
 

paul1609

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A terminating route from Plymouth could possibly get closer to Tavistock town centre than the outskirts housing development site, extending along 'Quant Park' (the trackbed path) with a new bridge over the A390 and CP of one house on the trackbed. The height is still an issue of course, although might be solvable by a lift/funicular link up to railway level. A town centre site is not essential though, considering Tavistock would primarily be a commuter source feeding Plymouth as the major employment/education/retail destination. A more central site would serve many people living within walking distance of the centre however, and permit easier interchange with existing local buses from surrounding towns and villages that already go to Tavistock.

It is immediately east of the viaduct where far more significant problems begin for a through route however, with multiple modern houses on and surrounding the trackbed through old station site, then the local authority HQ, who should be amenable to moving out or altering their buildings to suit assuming they actually support the scheme (which begs the question as to why they as the planning authority allowed the various developments on the alignment in the first place). East of that, there are a number of further private properties impinging on the old alignment within the town boundaries
The problem with a commuter service from Tavistock to Plymouth is the circuitous route via the Tamar Valley on arrival in Plymouth station the majority of commuters would have to take a bus back towards Tavistock which is where the majority of jobs have been centred in recent years (Derriford-Manadon corridor).
It would be easier to get the 3 buses per hour service direct (or to drive).
 

MarkyT

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The problem with a commuter service from Tavistock to Plymouth is the circuitous route via the Tamar Valley on arrival in Plymouth station the majority of commuters would have to take a bus back towards Tavistock which is where the majority of jobs have been centred in recent years (Derriford-Manadon corridor).
It would be easier to get the 3 buses per hour service direct (or to drive).
Certainly a lot of employment along that corridor for whom the rail route would not be attractive from the Tavistock area I agree. There are many other jobs in the centre and different parts of the city though for whom it may be a better option. As to circuitous, it is a different route to the centre than the A386 clearly, but only about 10% longer, and serving different places en route, such as the dockyard area. There might be a role for both bus and rail on this corridor in meeting peoples' travel requirements.
 

21C101

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The problem with a commuter service from Tavistock to Plymouth is the circuitous route via the Tamar Valley on arrival in Plymouth station the majority of commuters would have to take a bus back towards Tavistock which is where the majority of jobs have been centred in recent years (Derriford-Manadon corridor).
It would be easier to get the 3 buses per hour service direct (or to drive).
No doubt that (and the walk up the hill to the station at Tavy) is one reason the line shut, although I think it had more to do with Beeching doctrine than number of passengers. Tavy had half hourly peak hour service until the end.

However in those days buses could zip down the A386 to Plymouth. Congestion now makes the bus an unpalatable alternative.
 
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Bald Rick

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Devon CC own 90% of the trackbed so far.

It’s the other 10% that’s the problem, though.

If they do a basic reopening, like Okehampton, that would stand more chance of it happening.

But unlike Okehampton, the track isn’t there, and the railway hasn’t been in existence for half a century. That makes it not basic.


There is remote landscape between eg. NA and Totnes or Crewkerne and Axminster.

Indeed. There is also a fully functioning railway, which Bere Alston to Tavistock / Okehampton hasn’t got.
 

21C101

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It’s the other 10% that’s the problem, though.



But unlike Okehampton, the track isn’t there, and the railway hasn’t been in existence for half a century. That makes it not basic.




Indeed. There is also a fully functioning railway, which Bere Alston to Tavistock / Okehampton hasn’t got.
What in particular is the problem and where. Recalcritant farmers usually hold out until the scheme looks likely to get the go ahead then settle quick before compulsory purchase is instigated and they can no longer get a higher than market price.

Devon has form for buying up large tracts of Withered Arm even where no immidiate or long term chance of railway reopening and have resorted to compulsory purchase already at Bridestowe.

Current focus is the missing links in the Tarka Trail between Braunton and Morthoe and Meeth, Halwill and the county boundary near Bude, along with a curved footbridge over the Taw at Barnstaple on the site of the old rail bridge.
 

Bald Rick

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What in particular is the problem and where.

The various homes and businesses that are in the way.

Added to which is the thing that people always forget. Building a railway needs a *lot* more land than the end state. It’s not just about where the railway used to run. See HS2.
 

21C101

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The various homes and businesses that are in the way.

Added to which is the thing that people always forget. Building a railway needs a *lot* more land than the end state. It’s not just about where the railway used to run. See HS2.
Ther aren't any homes and businesses (other than farming) in the way between Bere Alston and the new station site at the south of Tavistock?
 

The Ham

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There you go.

The value of farmland is fairly cheap, especially where there's no chance of future development.

Prime arable land in Devon typically costs a little under £10,000/acre with lower quality and pasture land being less than that (February 2020 figures).

Even if you had to buy 100 acres then that's only £1 million.

Just as an aside land used for construction would be a lot less than this as the land would just be leased and as long as it was returned to the same quality as before you'd be paying lost profits, which are tiny in the greater scheme of things (they're not significant in cash values either), even if that's for a few years.
 

Bald Rick

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The value of farmland is fairly cheap, especially where there's no chance of future development.

Prime arable land in Devon typically costs a little under £10,000/acre with lower quality and pasture land being less than that (February 2020 figures).

Even if you had to buy 100 acres then that's only £1 million.

Just as an aside land used for construction would be a lot less than this as the land would just be leased and as long as it was returned to the same quality as before you'd be paying lost profits, which are tiny in the greater scheme of things (they're not significant in cash values either), even if that's for a few years.

8m afraid that’s quite a misunderstanding of what it takes to buy land.
 

The Ham

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8m afraid that’s quite a misunderstanding of what it takes to buy land.

I'm aware that it's a significant simplification, and that there would be other costs (such as legals) the point I was making was that the cost of the land (as the other costs still come into play, but are a smaller percentage of the total cost) is fairly small if you're buying agricultural land vs buying something with a building (or even permission for a building) on it.
 

21C101

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I'm aware that it's a significant simplification, and that there would be other costs (such as legals) the point I was making was that the cost of the land (as the other costs still come into play, but are a smaller percentage of the total cost) is fairly small if you're buying agricultural land vs buying something with a building (or even permission for a building) on it.
And as I said upthread, obstructive farmers nearly always settle in the end as they will get a higher price in a willing buyer willing seller sale than with compulsory purchase.

The powers to (re)build a railway include compulsory purchase powers, even heritage railways.

Organisations like Devon County Council have compulsory purchase powers even when there is no intention of reopening the railway. An example being the Granite Way Cycle Path at Bridestowe.

If buildings are on the trackbed it gets messier but there are none between Bere Alston and Tavy. There is also plenty (un sold off) space at Bere Alston for a construction depot.
 

30907

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Ther aren't any homes and businesses (other than farming) in the way between Bere Alston and the new station site at the south of Tavistock?
True, which is what makes Tavistock a reasonable possibility - but this thread is about the through route, which is AIUI where things get a little more difficult.
 

daodao

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Dunham/Bowdon
True, which is what makes Tavistock a reasonable possibility - but this thread is about the through route, which is AIUI where things get a little more difficult.
This mad idea (reopening Meldon to Tavistock) needs to be quashed once and for ever. Meldon viaduct deserves the same fate as Belah.
 
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