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Sunderland Station Improvements

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GrandCentral

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I saw an article this morning suggesting that Sunderland Station is going to be improved. This includes a full remodelling of the South end and a new car park being added. These two things are very much needed. More interestingly though they have mentioned turning it back into a 4 platform station, using the old disused platforms that are currently hidden behind the light wall.

Good to see investment going in but do we need 4 platforms back? A lot of work will need to be done as one track was taken away and covered with a platform during the Metro conversion.

 
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AndrewP

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Sounds positive - i went to Sunderland recently and it seemed better than it has done in a while.

Due to the key location of the station a positive improvement could make a big difference to the city centre.

I can understand them wanting four tracks as it would allow flexibility to terminate Metro trains there
 

syorksdeano

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Good to see Sunderland might be improved. Last time I went to Sunderland only the atom bomb would make the place an improvement
 

Paul_10

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All that money to improve the station around 10 years ago was a total waste of money as they had to move the ceiling panals for some reason which I can't remember of sadly. The station desperately needs improvements and gimmicks such as the 'light up artwork wall' needs to be ditched. If it does get another refurbishment, let's hope this brings value for money this time.
 

Mojo

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I thought the station was refurbished 2008-2010?
 

47271

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It's the upstairs that desperately needs the refurb, the main concourse, if that's what you can call it, is straight out of the 1970s.

I thought the station was refurbished 2008-2010?
It was.

Platform level is okay so long as you accept that it's all underground, but quite how all that work can have been done ten years ago and now they've decided they need the redundant platforms again - dear oh dear...
 

jkkne

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Refurbish the station...all well and good but still barely any services of use aside helping Sunderlands continual decline as a commuter city for Newcastle.
 

Diplodicus

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Unless Sunderland's retail centre is able to offer the goods, services and social experience to attract visitors, then all the station improvements will be fruitless. Commuters, whether arriving or departing, quickly stop admiring the aesthetics of platform one whilst waiting for their morning drag to work, especially when they're delayed by late-running services and a brisk north-easterly is blowing a houly.

Develop the area around the station exits:

1. Reroute local bus services to make interchange simple and close-by;
2. More street market events;
3. Increase the worthwhile attractions listed on Tripadvisor from two to more (crruently two museums and a football stadium!!).

Convince anyone with any financial savvy why Sunderland's City Centre will survive the current retailing meltdown better than Newcastle.
 

Purple Orange

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Refurbish the station...all well and good but still barely any services of use aside helping Sunderlands continual decline as a commuter city for Newcastle.

I don’t see it as a decline at all. Better commuter links to Newcastle is a very good thing.
 

Diplodicus

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Yes, I phrased my comment poorly. What I should have said was Sunderland's decline as a "traditional" city centre whilst continuing to turn into a commuter city for Newcastle.
 

Purple Orange

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Yes, I phrased my comment poorly. What I should have said was Sunderland's decline as a "traditional" city centre whilst continuing to turn into a commuter city for Newcastle.

I wonder if the north-south divide in Sunderland plays a part? North of the river feels very easily linked to South Tyneside and therefore Newcastle, but south of the river it feels a bit different and not as easy.
 

swt_passenger

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Sounds positive - i went to Sunderland recently and it seemed better than it has done in a while.

Due to the key location of the station a positive improvement could make a big difference to the city centre.

I can understand them wanting four tracks as it would allow flexibility to terminate Metro trains there
Can’t they already use Park Lane, or the turnback sidings, for any terminating flexibility they need?

Have NR ever expressed a need for 4 platforms, or is it a politicians vanity project?

Presumably the “in use” island was widened for a very good reason, ie for safer passenger circulation, so is it at all likely that it can be narrowed again?
 

Diplodicus

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I wonder if the north-south divide in Sunderland plays a part? North of the river feels very easily linked to South Tyneside and therefore Newcastle, but south of the river it feels a bit different and not as easy.
Aye, right enough. Those Bishopwearmouth folk are a bit strange.:s
 

Starmill

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Converting former town and city centre retail space into public gardens and social housing is one option. Of course it depends on the local authority having the necessary money to maintain the public park or garden areas, but there are a few options there such as charging market rents and using the profits to pay for operating costs, attracting coffee outlets or co-working firms to pay rent, or building mixed flat developments and selling a portion at market prices in order to cover the capital costs of building the development.

It's also important to keep cars out of town and city centres as far as possible, and to support bus journey time reliability and provide good infrastructure to bus passengers. Politically it's also really tricky to sell making roads bus only, reducing dual carriageways to busways and closing car parking to build housing or public squares.

Sadly most local authorities are just not resourced and empowered for such projects, with a few exceptions. I'd suggest that Sunderland could look good, as it's reasonably well placed and the riverside and bridges could be made to look attractive. The sporting popularity of the locale will help, and I'm sure there are some local museums and cultural icons that I'm unaware of.

Another thought I've often had about Sunderland is that a station at Ryhope would have a decent population catchment, with a covered bridge connection directly over the road, that would help connect somewhere that seems slightly more cut off. Journey time would come down to perhaps 5 minutes and through services to Newcastle could be provided. It'd be tricky to add more stops on that route now though and the frequency is low.

Have NR ever expressed a need for 4 platforms, or is it a politicians vanity project?
It was mentioned in the Church Fenton to Newcastle Strategic Advice, yes. I'll find a link and quote shortly as I can't right now, unless someone else can get to it before me.
 
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swt_passenger

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It was mentioned in the Church Fenton to Newcastle Strategic Advice, yes. I'll find a link and quote shortly as I can't right now, unless someone else can get to it before me.
Oh, that’s ok then I can look for it myself. On the face of it, they’re not necessarily recommending 4 platforms...
1 Sunderland station – new through platform
Due to interaction with Metro services and London services turning back at Sunderland, the station is a particularly challenging location to accommodate new services. Reinstatement of the former platform at Sunderland to create a new through platform would support additional growth in services, although would be an expensive option with engineering challenges.

2 Sunderland station – new bay platform
It is likely that a new south-facing bay platform, capable of accommodating 120m trains, would be a less costly option compared with a through-platform, though train service flexibility would be reduced.

3 Turnback to the north of Sunderland station
To reduce the need for expensive engineering works at Sunderland station, an option for a turnback between St Peters and Stadium of Light Metro stations has been explored, which would allow 120m terminating trains to avoid utilising though-platform capacity. Though less expensive, this would also provide reduced additional capacity compared with the new platform options. There may also be operational challenges related to turnaround time for terminating trains.
That’s from fig 2.1 in the report mentioned:
 
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ainsworth74

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and I'm sure there are some local museums and cultural icons that I'm unaware of

How can you not have heard about the Fans Museum Sunderland?! A massive collection of Sunderland football memorabilia! It's even in the lovely old Monkwearmouth station building! ;)

 

deep south

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The proposal seems to be the usual "kitchen sink" approach; the car park in Holmeside isn't very close to the station, and that land was supposed to be developed for a budget hotel (but they are building a Holiday Inn Express not too far away, and there are already two Travelodges and a Premier Inn as well) The "public square" to the north must mean demolishing the Poundland store (Littlewoods as was, but the upper stories haven't been used for years,built after the station was completely redeveloped in the '60's I think). Best thing to do is demolish it all and start again.

The fact the lines are under street level will always limit what can be done, but natural light would enhance the ambience immensely.
 

swt_passenger

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The proposal seems to be the usual "kitchen sink" approach; the car park in Holmeside isn't very close to the station, and that land was supposed to be developed for a budget hotel (but they are building a Holiday Inn Express not too far away, and there are already two Travelodges and a Premier Inn as well) The "public square" to the north must mean demolishing the Poundland store (Littlewoods as was, but the upper stories haven't been used for years,built after the station was completely redeveloped in the '60's I think). Best thing to do is demolish it all and start again.

The fact the lines are under street level will always limit what can be done, but natural light would enhance the ambience immensely.
Can’t be a much better time for a local council to buy up poor buildings for complete demolition. I suspect landowners are looking for a way to lose poor quality parts of their holdings...
 

Darandio

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Walking down the stairs into Sunderland station is like descending into the pits of hell. In fairly recent history it wasn't quite as bad as it is now, the luxury of some daylight was still afforded to passengers even in the late eighties but now it's like a tomb.

It says a lot when my best memories of visiting the station in the last 30 years are getting a breakfast bun from Milligan's upstairs, anything from below street level is erased from the conscience.
 

Purple Orange

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Walking down the stairs into Sunderland station is like descending into the pits of hell. In fairly recent history it wasn't quite as bad as it is now, the luxury of some daylight was still afforded to passengers even in the late eighties but now it's like a tomb.

It says a lot when my best memories of visiting the station in the last 30 years are getting a breakfast bun from Milligan's upstairs, anything from below street level is erased from the conscience.
I remember getting stuck in the lift as a child back in the 80s. That was a terrifying experience!
 

Starmill

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Oh, that’s ok then I can look for it myself. On the face of it, they’re not necessarily recommending 4 platforms...

That’s from fig 2.1 in the report mentioned:
Thanks, that's useful. It seems to hint that one additional through platform, and not necessarily any more than one, thus bringing the total number to three, would provide useful flexibility and cater for increases in services very well, along with the other range of interventions proposed along the mainline and in the Newcastle area. Other, cheaper solutions at Sunderland are possible but would work less well, or so that seems to suggest. In addition to any aesthetic or passenger facility improvements, which would most likely be focused primarily on the street level of the station.

How can you not have heard about the Fans Museum Sunderland?! A massive collection of Sunderland football memorabilia! It's even in the lovely old Monkwearmouth station building! ;)

I'm pretty sure we've discussed that one before, having gone past on the train :lol:
 

hacman

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Can’t they already use Park Lane, or the turnback sidings, for any terminating flexibility they need?

Have NR ever expressed a need for 4 platforms, or is it a politicians vanity project?

Presumably the “in use” island was widened for a very good reason, ie for safer passenger circulation, so is it at all likely that it can be narrowed again?

Of the two sidings south of Sunderland, only one is electrified. The layout of the junction is also a bit crap, requiring trains leaving the sidings to block both southbound lines and the northbound until they are clear. The need for 4 platforms more comes by way of the current 4 platforms / 2 tracks arrangement, which means services have to depart in order as it were.

Restoring the other island is most likely to be expensive due to the construction of the basement levels of the booking hall shops (the old WH Smith, etc) on it. Ironically, whilst the strategic advice suggests a 120m long south-facing platform as a cheaper alternative, this is likely not that much cheaper, as you'd still have to do away with these basement areas. That said, now is the perfect time to do this as others have said - there is a good amount of empty retail space, and the buildings are so awful they won't be missed.

The existing platform was widened at the time simply because there were no plans to ever use the other island again (this was the Railtrack era, and the entire project was already "value engineered" to an extreme degree), and it was an easy (cheap) way to make the station better - remember that when this was originally done there were no escalators, there was no suspended ceiling, and the fixtures and fittings were literally the basics that could be gotten away with.

Any issues in terms of passenger circulation from reverting to the original width would be mitigated by the division of passenger numbers between the two platforms, especially since this would result in segregation of local and longer/long-distance passengers, whose differing behaviors tend to be the cause of some issues.

Having 4 platforms, with one island for Metro and the other for National Rail services would open up a great deal of flexibility, and be a great start to improvements to the route that could open up the potential for much better local, regional and national services.

All that money to improve the station around 10 years ago was a total waste of money as they had to move the ceiling panals for some reason which I can't remember of sadly. The station desperately needs improvements and gimmicks such as the 'light up artwork wall' needs to be ditched. If it does get another refurbishment, let's hope this brings value for money this time.

To be honest I've always quite liked the light wall (officially an art installation named "Platform 5"). For when it was installed it was quite a novel art installation, and I think a good deal of the negative perception that it has come entirely from the fact that everything it's surrounded with is, quite frankly, disgusting and depressing.

Had the suspended ceiling not collapsed, and the lighting and facilities along the rest of the station been better, I'm sure it would have been far more welcomed - especially if updated with current technology so the figures move a bit more smoothly.

You could honestly have put the most amazing things in the world in that station and it will all still feel utterly s**t due to the fact that it's basically an unloved, cheaped out, neglected hole in the ground. Hopefully, that may finally change!
 

Mikey C

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The proposal seems to be the usual "kitchen sink" approach; the car park in Holmeside isn't very close to the station, and that land was supposed to be developed for a budget hotel (but they are building a Holiday Inn Express not too far away, and there are already two Travelodges and a Premier Inn as well) The "public square" to the north must mean demolishing the Poundland store (Littlewoods as was, but the upper stories haven't been used for years,built after the station was completely redeveloped in the '60's I think). Best thing to do is demolish it all and start again.

The fact the lines are under street level will always limit what can be done, but natural light would enhance the ambience immensely.
Fresh air would be a massive benefit when a Class 180 is in the station!
 

willgreen

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Also worth bearing in mind that a Metro extension to Washington and a South Shields-Sunderland Metro service, are both Nexus aspirations; either of these would probably require a new platform of some description.
 

Joba

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All that money to improve the station around 10 years ago was a total waste of money as they had to move the ceiling panals for some reason which I can't remember of sadly. The station desperately needs improvements and gimmicks such as the 'light up artwork wall' needs to be ditched. If it does get another refurbishment, let's hope this brings value for money this time.
There has always been pretty severe water ingress from the tunnel ceiling from what I remember. You'll see it on the walls and roof from the NB platform above the track. It's probably the reason sections of the light display on that wall also no longer work.
 

camflyer

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Sunderland must have the worst main station of any city in the country. Tarting it up a little will help a little but what it really needs is a brand new mainline station is a new location (with the current one becoming just a Metro stop) and with better links to destinations other than Newcastle
 

deep south

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Sunderland must have the worst main station of any city in the country. Tarting it up a little will help a little but what it really needs is a brand new mainline station is a new location (with the current one becoming just a Metro stop) and with better links to destinations other than Newcastle
But the current metro/main line interchange is very convenient! Best thing would be demolish the entire station, rebuild it with 3 or 4 platforms and open it up to daylight. The retail is just about gone in that area anyway so isn't a consideration. New retail was built to the south of the station and has never been let in 15 years,,,,
 

camflyer

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But the current metro/main line interchange is very convenient! Best thing would be demolish the entire station, rebuild it with 3 or 4 platforms and open it up to daylight. The retail is just about gone in that area anyway so isn't a consideration. New retail was built to the south of the station and has never been let in 15 years,,,,

True. You could pretty much knock down the whole area, lose nothing of any architectural merit and start again.
 

londonbridge

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Although I’ve never actually lived in the city I still have family in Shields and have been travelling up and back attending games at Roker Park and the SOL for the best part of forty years, as well as doing the Great North Run. It’s been sad to see the station and the city centre gradually declining with each visit, of course due to the pandemic I haven’t been up there for a year so heaven alone knows what it’ll be looking like by the time I eventually go up again, agree that the station and much of the city centre is in dire need of a major overhaul and revamp.
 

camflyer

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Although I’ve never actually lived in the city I still have family in Shields and have been travelling up and back attending games at Roker Park and the SOL for the best part of forty years, as well as doing the Great North Run. It’s been sad to see the station and the city centre gradually declining with each visit, of course due to the pandemic I haven’t been up there for a year so heaven alone knows what it’ll be looking like by the time I eventually go up again, agree that the station and much of the city centre is in dire need of a major overhaul and revamp.

Same here - I'm a regular visitor to the temple of football (Sunderland supporter by family curse) but the city centre is an embarrassment especially when you compare the regeneration which other northern cities have seen over the last 20 years. It's good to see the plans for the development of the old Vaux site is finally starting to take shape but as a gateway the city the station doesn't help.
 
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