New travel classes on Eurostar

[jon0844]

I can't believe people fall for all the spin and lies about making things easier, or more transparent and all the other things said to justify what is often a cut in service or an increase in pricing.

Stuff like 'You told us that all of the cheap deals we have been offering were too confusing, so we've scrapped them in favour of a new fixed-charge ticket. It might cost slightly more but it is now simple and transparent, and that's what you asked for. What's more we have more of these more expensive tickets than the older, cheaper, ones so you're more likely to get one in the future.'.

I made that up, but it could quite easily be written by a train or airline operator.

I've had my bank explain away an increase in my monthly service charge by saying they've simplified the services offered (which could mean they've actually REDUCED the things they offer me) and I guess they figure people either don't read the letters properly or are too thick to understand.

If people did always see though the spin, they wouldn't do it.

I hate it when a company lies by saying they've had loads of positive feedback. The thing is that you can't disprove it, and in my job I've had plenty of people in different companies telling me 'off the record' that it's not true!

 

[Wolfie]

I have also seen another arguement advanced which makes the value of Standard Premier (at least at non-staff prices!) look even worse.

Leisure Select was (and Standard Premier remains) roughly comparable in cost to advance purchase non-flexible business class flight tickets. While such air tickets allow access to an airline lounge Leisure Select/Standard Premier does not. This deficiency was made up for by the level of catering, including drinks, offered by Leisure Select. The level offered by Standard Premier is frankly no better than airline catering, and there is still no lounge access.....

Q: which is therefore the better package (at least in terms of food/drink)?

 

[stut]

I hate it when a company lies by saying they've had loads of positive feedback. The thing is that you can't disprove it, and in my job I've had plenty of people in different companies telling me 'off the record' that it's not true!

Oh, it's easy to engineer surveys to give you the answer you want - happens all the time.

Q1. Is choice a good thing?
Q2. Do you prefer to choose what you want, or be obliged to purchase it?
Q3. Do you believe that quality, locally sourced produce is a good thing?

Yes, yes, and yes.

So, therefore the ability to choose is good, the ability to have bare bones service (you can always go to the buffet car) is good, and if they get croissants from a bakery in Paris, then woohoo! They're simply giving the customer what they want, aren't they?

I suspect there's also an element of:

Q4. Does your corporate travel policy allow travel in a) standard classes b) business and first classes.

Oh look, it's all a). Let's rename it 'standard premier' and see if the beancounters fall for it. (Ans: they won't, it's the bottom line that counts...)

 

[91101]

Worth it at staff prices, not at £189+ return...

Sorry mate, I re-read that I realised my post was slightly ambiguious. I think the 70 odd quid it costs for a staff first class return is well worth it, considering you can officially barely get to Newcastle or Manchester from london for less than 70 on a Priv ticket, so to get all of the way to Paris for less than 80 and retur in First class is EXCEPTIONALLY good value as I said especially compared with the discount on our own network.

I was of course referring to value for money for the average punter. Business Premier is to me absolutely a rip off. A fully flexible BP return is £450. What you get is quite frankly a crap airline meal, which is stingy in the extreme and some free, admitedly good quality, booze. The breakfast is tiny anyway, and either in breakfast or dinner are hardly a full meal in my eyes. These guys are paying nearly half a grand for this!! I cannot see the justification, when you compare with EUS-MAN at circa £380 but you are getting a fully plated, chef prepared meal, as well as all of the free booze you can drink!)

I think its a cultural thing though, having just spent the last three days tootling around France and Germany in First Class, I can say that neither SNCF or DB do much in First Class, its nothing more than the extra seat, it just seems in this country we have a much better augmented product.

 

[CosherB]

As someone who has enjoyed Leasure Select in the past, I e-mailed them about this. I got this self-satisfied and inadequate reply:

Thank you for your e mail,

Feedback from our customers has shown that the element of service and being looked after by our dedicated staff on board is highly valued and therefore we will continue to offer the same level of customer service on board.

This same feedback indicated that the current meal service was not meeting the needs of the majority of our travelers who were expecting to eat at their destination and did not require a substantial meal and nor did they expect to drink large amounts.

Therefore we have amended the meal in line with these expectations to make it high quality, healthier and lighter, whilst still delighting our travellers.


Kind Regards
Gary, Eurostar.com support

 

[MCR247]

Since there's no hope of E* getting nationalised,

Eurostar is technically nationalised isn't it? It is run by us, SNCF & Belgian Railways.

 

[williamn]

As someone who has enjoyed Leasure Select in the past, I e-mailed them about this. I got this self-satisfied and inadequate reply:

Thank you for your e mail,

Feedback from our customers has shown that the element of service and being looked after by our dedicated staff on board is highly valued and therefore we will continue to offer the same level of customer service on board.

This same feedback indicated that the current meal service was not meeting the needs of the majority of our travelers who were expecting to eat at their destination and did not require a substantial meal and nor did they expect to drink large amounts.

Therefore we have amended the meal in line with these expectations to make it high quality, healthier and lighter, whilst still delighting our travellers.


Kind Regards
Gary, Eurostar.com support

I didn't ever see many people in LS saying no to the meal! And if the above is true, fine, but the why is it now £10 MORE expensive, but for less food and wine?

 

[jon0844]

I just got a letter from EDF today saying my electricity charges will rise 2.5%, but it then goes on to say how it is still very competitive. Well, clearly not as competitive as it would be if they DIDN'T increase their charges!

I accept some people may not care for food or drink (but doubt many people ever told Eurostar that as they'd simply consider it free and say 'no thanks' when offered either, as I did once when I wasn't feeling well), but why not cut the pricing slightly and then offer the full service for those who do still want it for £10 or £15 extra?

 

[TGV]

Have any of you actually tried the new class? It seems there's a lot of opinion here, but all based on what you think it might be like rather than direct experience.

 

[jon0844]

I was due to go on Eurostar on Wednesday but my trip was cancelled. I will be going in a week or two, although I am not yet certain what class the ticket will be (it's being paid for by another company).

I've travelled to France with a certain company many times before and they used to use Leisure Select. I am not sure they would now.

 

[williamn]

@TGV

The flyer talk link above has experiences of people who have actually used the service.

 

[Greenback]

Have any of you actually tried the new class? It seems there's a lot of opinion here, but all based on what you think it might be like rather than direct experience.

Have you tried it? It would be interesting to read some comments supporting Eurostar's changes, but there don't seem to be any, either from those that have used the service, or those, like us, who are considering it!

 

[TGV]

Have you tried it? It would be interesting to read some comments supporting Eurostar's changes, but there don't seem to be any, either from those that have used the service, or those, like us, who are considering it!

Yes. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever. It's nowhere near as dramatic a change as people are making out! That's what made me ask the question!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I know there's (or was) three old travel classes, and now there's three different types, what's the difference being made, is a catering service being cut in the middle one or something?

 

[Greenback]

Yes. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever. It's nowhere near as dramatic a change as people are making out! That's what made me ask the question!

So, what exactly are the benefits of it, if you don't mind me asking? We are conisdering going to France over Christmas/New Year, Eurostar one way and ferry the other!

 

[TGV]

So, what exactly are the benefits of it, if you don't mind me asking? We are conisdering going to France over Christmas/New Year, Eurostar one way and ferry the other!

The way I see it:
Standard - you get a seat in 2+2 formation carriage. If you want food, you go get it yourself.
Standard Premier - You get a seat in a 2+1 first class carriage. Food is brought to you and that includes a buffet-style cold meal with wine if you like and endless tea and coffee.
Business Prem - You get a seat in the business carriages (again 2+1 formation) but it's filled with like-minded business people (so you're unlikely to get sat beside a hen party if you need to work), food is brought to you and the meal is a cooked affair and consists of a couple of courses. Oh and the 10 minute check in.

 

[Daimler]

The way I see it:
Standard - you get a seat in 2+2 formation carriage. If you want food, you go get it yourself.
Standard Premier - You get a seat in a 2+1 first class carriage. Food is brought to you and that includes a buffet-style cold meal with wine if you like and endless tea and coffee.
Business Prem - You get a seat in the business carriages (again 2+1 formation) but it's filled with like-minded business people (so you're unlikely to get sat beside a hen party if you need to work), food is brought to you and the meal is a cooked affair and consists of a couple of courses. Oh and the 10 minute check in.

Yes, but the Standard Premier offering is clearly a reduced level of service when compared to before, when effectively it was Business Premier minus the lounge and ten minute check-in (and a less flexible fare).

On top of that, it's more expensive than Leisure Select was - without wishing to sound too arrogant, I believe I don't even need to travel to see that this is worse than before - paying more for less.

 

[Greenback]

For thos eof us who never used Standard Premier, it's not a question of whether it's worse than something we never used! We need to make a value judgement as to whether the service, food and environment that is offered is worth the extra cost. I think we need to take into account all of the views, both for and against, when weighing it up!

What concerns me is that if passengers try it and deem it poor, then they won't return. It looks as though those who did use the old service aren;t keen on the new one, so won't be partaking, or paying the extra. This will clearly have revenue implications for Eurostar, but would they ever admit they got it wrong?

 

[stut]

Yes. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever. It's nowhere near as dramatic a change as people are making out! That's what made me ask the question!

I have tried it, and while the change isn't dramatic, it is significant.

If I were doing a leisure trip, paying a little more for the larger seat, I wouldn't mind.

If I were diong a fairly relaxed business trip, leaving in the afternoong, eating out in the evening, coming back a couple of days later - again, I wouldn't mind.

Where it really hurts, however, is when you have to do that already painful type of business trip: the day-trip. When you're getting the train around 7am (and I don't live in London, so that's a 5am start for me) and getting back home around 10pm, you need eat on the move. And I want something decent - not the standard on-the-go fare of cake-pretending-to-be-healthy for breakfast and greasy-fried-abattoir-sweepings for dinner. This is where Leisure Select came into its own - the space to work (sorry, I can't type on a full-size laptop with someone next to me in Standard - there's only just space for my legs with the tray down) and decent meals at the right time.

And sorry, I'm not a banker. My company isn't going to pay £450 to send me to France.

Now, I can understand them saying that people want a choice of whether to eat or not. Increasing the base price and giving them a half-arsed snack (it's certainly not a meal) isn't a choice - it's the worst of both worlds. And it's frankly patronising to tell us that it is an improvement. Keep the base price and charge us for a full meal by all means. But that option's not even there now.

 

[jon0844]

I would have though that the best option, if you have to increase charges because of increased running/staffing costs, is to offer a proper meal at a reasonable and fair price, and a smaller meal for a nominal fee. That way the people who aren't bothered (have eaten, want to sleep etc) can have nothing, and not feel like they're paying for something that is rubbish anyway.

Your day-trip example is spot on, given that this is exactly what I was going to do before the trip was postponed; out on 0727 train back at 2130 (or thereabouts) train, with transfers and meetings between, I'll almost certainly not have time to eat, and given I'm on the train for two hours then it seems like the logical place to do so!

Does Eurostar want people to start taking packed lunches?

 

[Daimler]

I would have though that the best option, if you have to increase charges because of increased running/staffing costs, is to offer a proper meal at a reasonable and fair price, and a smaller meal for a nominal fee. That way the people who aren't bothered (have eaten, want to sleep etc) can have nothing, and not feel like they're paying for something that is rubbish anyway.

That sounds like a sensible option - give people the choice of a proper meal in Standard Premier.

It also means, of course, that if the menu doesn't appeal, you don't have to pay for it!

 

[TGV]

I have tried it, and while the change isn't dramatic, it is significant.

If I were doing a leisure trip, paying a little more for the larger seat, I wouldn't mind.

If I were diong a fairly relaxed business trip, leaving in the afternoong, eating out in the evening, coming back a couple of days later - again, I wouldn't mind.

Where it really hurts, however, is when you have to do that already painful type of business trip: the day-trip. When you're getting the train around 7am (and I don't live in London, so that's a 5am start for me) and getting back home around 10pm, you need eat on the move. And I want something decent - not the standard on-the-go fare of cake-pretending-to-be-healthy for breakfast and greasy-fried-abattoir-sweepings for dinner. This is where Leisure Select came into its own - the space to work (sorry, I can't type on a full-size laptop with someone next to me in Standard - there's only just space for my legs with the tray down) and decent meals at the right time.

And sorry, I'm not a banker. My company isn't going to pay £450 to send me to France.

Now, I can understand them saying that people want a choice of whether to eat or not. Increasing the base price and giving them a half-arsed snack (it's certainly not a meal) isn't a choice - it's the worst of both worlds. And it's frankly patronising to tell us that it is an improvement. Keep the base price and charge us for a full meal by all means. But that option's not even there now.

Interesting.. I recently went on exactly such a trip in the UK - the day business trip. I had an open First return - I used Cross country on the way out and a mixture of XC and Great Western on the way back. The ticket cost me (well, my employer) £267. For that - do you know what I got offered to eat during over 4h 30m of travel?

A bacon roll.

That's it. Oh all the tea I could want to drown myself in but food wise, that was all. I could have chosen a chicken salad thing or a veggie option, but I chose the roll. The point is that the new service we're talking about here represents decent value.

You quoted £450 - that's the most expensive walk-on BUSINESS premier return to Paris that I can find. For Std Prem it could be as little as £264 for a walk-on fare, and much cheaper in advance.

Looks like we may have to agree to disagree on this one!

 

[williamn]

I think a lot depends on whether you are an existing or new user of the service. For many existing users this will seem like a big downgrade of the service, but at an increased fare. Personally I used it to treat myself and to save time at one end by eating on the train. It seems like very bad business sense to **** off your existing semi-premium customers, and I will guess that a) E* are getting lots of complaints and b) Many of these customers will downgrade to standard.

Totally new customers will be unaware of the previous offering and may well be happy with the service.

There's no point comparing it to domestic services - the point is that people who used Leisure Select *expect* to get a meal and will be annoyed now they don't. When I travel East Coast I don't expect a meal. As long as I know that in advance thats fine, and my expectations are met.

 

[stut]

For that - do you know what I got offered to eat during over 4h 30m of travel?

A bacon roll.

And that's equally unimpressive, but hardly something that justifies bringing other services down to the same level.

You quoted £450 - that's the most expensive walk-on BUSINESS premier return to Paris that I can find. For Std Prem it could be as little as £264 for a walk-on fare, and much cheaper in advance.

In fact, it's the only business premier fare. The point is that, if you want to have a proper meal on the Eurostar now, that's the fare you have to pay.

It's rather like what happened to the 'traditional' airlines when they started competing with the low-costs. No meal, they said, let's keep costs down. So you get a back of peanuts and a glass of fizzy water. Meanwhile, over on RyanEasyBE, it's paid for, but at least you have the choice. The airlines that try to sell themselves on having 'full service' end up faring worse.

However, I still maintain that the most annoying thing is Eurostar's insistence that it's a good thing for me that I have to pay more for less - it's the worst kind of marketing spin. They could easily have said, look, our costs are going up, but instead of making everybody pay a bigger fare, we're giving you the option to skip food if you don't want it, and so not pay for it. If you do want it, great, we've got massive catering facilities on board, and we won't charge extortionate sums. But they don't, they just repeatedly tell me that it's what I want.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm an occasional user of Eurostar. I'm lucky enough to be able to get LS/SP for a £20 premium each way. I think it's worth it at that price but only just. Previously it was easily worth it. I doubt I'd pay the public fare premium.

Simply put it tends to be quieter (One of my few standard class journeys on E* was at the end of half term - I didn't know that until I travelled. Standard was packed and it put me off a bit).

I travelled to Belgium recently. The meal has become a snack. My wife and I got 3 tiny platefuls - on one leg 2 of mine were the same! Tasty enough but you're likely to be hungry shortly after arriving at your destination. The first time I went LS this was an important consideration - I was arriving in Paris quite late, hadn't been there for 10 years and due to my dietary requirements I have to plan in Paris (I can eat there but not as easily as in London or Rome).

I'm actually surprised how little they advertise their buffet now the food option is so small.