How critical is the return of passengers and busy trains for railway jobs?

[Robertj21a]

When you say guaranteed, I presume you mean until the quota runs out.

Yes, but assuming a large quota, not something fairly meaningless.

 

[LowLevel]

Speaking of encouraging people back to the railways. Sheffield is my local Mainline Station. £19.50 for a days parking. That will not encourage people back. I nearly fainted when it came to paying, its the first time I have actually parked there.

The problem with sites like Sheffield is that the layout is far from conducive to car parking. Whatever the price what space was available would often be full anyway.

Nottingham for example was lucky in that it had ample space to build a very large multi storey car park - which until COVID was generating a very nice sum every year for the train operator as all 950 spaces were taken almost every week day, minus staff parking.

Ideally at Sheffield you'd demolish the old powerbox and put a multistorey in but in practice you'd have to find a lot of room for other things as well that are currently using the powerbox, including the interlocking as I don't think that has been converted to SSI (yet - certainly it was just a recontrol when it first happened). It has always had notoriously awful road access, but on the other hand it is served by buses and trams.

I know EMR and presumably the rest of the industry are conducting a comprehensive review of pricing in general going forward for all of their offerings.

 

[yorksrob]

When you say guaranteed, I presume you mean until the quota runs out.

Not allowing TOC's to suddenly withdraw quotas at the drop of a hat - for example if there's a big event on.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, but will it be enough !

'bucket and spade' traffic is, invariably, not going to make much difference. Indeed, if catering to it costs more than usual e.g. where extra trains have to be run, extra staff brought on to do ticket inspection before boarding because the train will be too full etc, it might actually be a bad thing.

 

[GB71]

Some interesting debates and comments but I really don't see how rail usage will go back to pre-pandemic levels quickly. Finance Directors (and I sued to be one) will have pocketed the savings on business travel and although it will return somewhat no way can I see budgets being anywhere near what they were. And most of us get that the country has spent plenty and will need to make appropriate cuts - the railways will be, in my opinion, an easy target compared with other more emotive areas of spend (NHS, education etc) and so passenger numbers will be absolutely critical.

For me personally I live near Sheffield and was based in Manchester - I did weekly trips to London and on average 10 returns a month from Meadowhall to Manchester - as a kid and a rail enthusiast (A Rail Riders member for those old enough to remember!) I remember dreaming of how great it would be if I could travel to work every day by train - well TPE turned my dream into a nightmare. For the first 6 weeks of 2020 so well pre-pandemic I did a 6 week experiment of driving 1 week and TPE the next - end to end I did a fair comparison leaving at the same time as near as possible. End to end all but one car journey was shorter and I was genuinely shocked by this as I had always assumed with the Woodhead Pass it was not practical - not only that I can leave when I want not when TPE tell me to each hour. Just as a comparison the 10 return journeys I did on TPE I had an average delay of just under 10 minutes and only once was I on time on the return journey. Moving forward I am going to be going over to Manchester less and as a result and I will not touch TPE again hopefully. Now longer distance to London will be a different matter - I will significantly cutback but will still use the train. The bottom line for me is that I used to spend between £13-14K a year on train travel which I expect to go down by £10K per year

 

[yorksrob]

'bucket and spade' traffic is, invariably, not going to make much difference. Indeed, if catering to it costs more than usual e.g. where extra trains have to be run, extra staff brought on to do ticket inspection before boarding because the train will be too full etc, it might actually be a bad thing.

I can't see a return to seaside specials in any great number.

But then again, if you're running frequent trains to places like Margate, Bognor and Scarborough, it makes sense to fill them up with the bucket and spade brigade.

People are more likely to be commuting away from those places, so it's a good counter-peak flow to go at.

 

[WestRiding]

The problem with sites like Sheffield is that the layout is far from conducive to car parking. Whatever the price what space was available would often be full anyway.

Nottingham for example was lucky in that it had ample space to build a very large multi storey car park - which until COVID was generating a very nice sum every year for the train operator as all 950 spaces were taken almost every week day, minus staff parking.

Ideally at Sheffield you'd demolish the old powerbox and put a multistorey in but in practice you'd have to find a lot of room for other things as well that are currently using the powerbox, including the interlocking as I don't think that has been converted to SSI (yet - certainly it was just a recontrol when it first happened). It has always had notoriously awful road access, but on the other hand it is served by buses and trams.

I know EMR and presumably the rest of the industry are conducting a comprehensive review of pricing in general going forward for all of their offerings.

It has a Multi-Storey car park, I beleive at first, it was run by Midland Mainline, who let Q Parks take it over, hence the prices.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not allowing TOC's to suddenly withdraw quotas at the drop of a hat - for example if there's a big event on.

Why shouldn’t TOCs do that? It’s what airlines, hotels, container companies, and all sorts of other businesses do.

 

[LowLevel]

It has a Multi-Storey car park, I beleive at first, it was run by Midland Mainline, who let Q Parks take it over, hence the prices.

If it's a Q Park that'll be why I've never clocked it Now I think about it I quite regularly see train crew from TPE coming in and out of it.

 

[yorksrob]

Why shouldn’t TOCs do that? It’s what airlines, hotels, container companies, and all sorts of other businesses do.

Because the railway is still a subsidised public service. Some commercial accumen is to be desired, but TOC's should not be gaming the market at passengers expense.

They should set their fares and allocations for the season and stick with them.

 

[zwk500]

They should set their fares and allocations for the season and stick with them.

So the railway shouldn't respond to changing circumstances at less than 6 month intervals?

 

[Bald Rick]

)

Because the railway is still a subsidised public service. Some commercial accumen is to be desired, but TOC's should not be gaming the market at passengers expense.

They should set their fares and allocations for the season and stick with them.

I disagree. All it would do is move the opportunity to use the service from those that are able to pay more to those that are able to book earliest. And cost the taxpayer money.

 

[yorksrob]

So the railway shouldn't respond to changing circumstances at less than 6 month intervals?

)


I disagree. All it would do is move the opportunity to use the service from those that are able to pay more to those that are able to book earliest. And cost the taxpayer money.

Speaking as a passenger, I acknowledge the right of the railway industry to set fares and fares quotas commercially over longer periods. I also acknowledge that there is always a risk of someone getting in there earlier and getting the tickets faster. I still have an element of control over how quickly I get to the internet/phone/booking office and still have a chance.

I don't accept that the TOC should have the right to withdraw whole tiers of fares at a moments notice. Passengers have a right to expect that small element of fares stability.

 

[Carlisle]

This is simply extrapolate of historic trends that has seen the management of rail services progressively move to a regional level, where it is more valued than a distant London (or Milton Keynes) head office.

From what I can tell, with no doubt the odd exception, rail almost from the beginning has benefited considerably more by embracing large scale economies, strategies, technologies, agreements & mergers, rather than dividing into smaller companies.
.

 

[Jozhua]

From what I can tell, with no doubt the odd exception, rail almost from the beginning has benefited considerably more by embracing large scale economies, strategies, technologies, agreements & mergers, rather than dividing into smaller companies.
.

The railways are an inherently interconnected system - that said, giving local government input and control over routes can also be helpful as they tend to understand local issues better.

 

[Ken H]

I do hope we don't see a dissolution of the booking offices. They were threatening in VTEC a few years ago to have staff wandering around the concourse selling bog roll tickets, which seems the worst of all worlds to me.

Passenger operated ticket machines need to be able to offer any ticket, not, Like the Northern ones, just from that station and not some types of ticket. And take cash. Ticket office staff would then be there to help people use the machines, like they have a staff member to help on self scan tills in supermarkets.

 

[yorksrob]

Passenger operated ticket machines need to be able to offer any ticket, not, Like the Northern ones, just from that station and not some types of ticket. And take cash. Ticket office staff would then be there to help people use the machines, like they have a staff member to help on self scan tills in supermarkets.

The way I look at it, if you're going to have staff anyway, you may as well give them a computer and all the relevant equipment - like a ticket office.

 

[Robertj21a]

Passenger operated ticket machines need to be able to offer any ticket, not, Like the Northern ones, just from that station and not some types of ticket. And take cash. Ticket office staff would then be there to help people use the machines, like they have a staff member to help on self scan tills in supermarkets.

No real need to take cash any longer. It just costs more to administer, for the benefit of a very small number who won't use cards.

 

[LowLevel]

No real need to take cash any longer. It just costs more to administer, for the benefit of a very small number who won't use cards.

In some areas cash is still very much king. Penalty fare route or not as a guard some routes I will take hardly any cash all day. Nottingham to Worksop on the other hand which has a very different demographic - I will take more cash than cards usually.

95% of the passengers up there are happy to pay if you ask them to (OK, not what the rules say, but that's life) but they do it on their own terms. I'm not standing there with a gang of Eastern European contractors holding out bank notes arguing that they've got to pay with a card or before they board. Accepting some activities are futile is part of life.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder to posters that this thread is for the discussion of how critical the return of passengers and busy trains is for railway jobs.

Thanks

 

[Non Multi]

No real need to take cash any longer. It just costs more to administer, for the benefit of a very small number who won't use cards.

It's all become desperately ironic for that those who insist modern technology should oust all traditional methods, when you consider what has happened to the weekday commute by rail...

 

[Robertj21a]

In some areas cash is still very much king. Penalty fare route or not as a guard some routes I will take hardly any cash all day. Nottingham to Worksop on the other hand which has a very different demographic - I will take more cash than cards usually.

95% of the passengers up there are happy to pay if you ask them to (OK, not what the rules say, but that's life) but they do it on their own terms. I'm not standing there with a gang of Eastern European contractors holding out bank notes arguing that they've got to pay with a card or before they board. Accepting some activities are futile is part of life.

I was only responding to the point about 'Passenger operated ticket machines'

 

[david1212]

Very true.
Perhaps one thing that could be pursued would be *guaranteed* Advance fare availability at limited off-peak times on *all* routes.

When you say guaranteed, I presume you mean until the quota runs out.

Not allowing TOC's to suddenly withdraw quotas at the drop of a hat - for example if there's a big event on.

Why shouldn’t TOCs do that? It’s what airlines, hotels, container companies, and all sorts of other businesses do.

What rail needs is for the passenger load to be spread as evenly as realistic across the services that are running. If in the near future passengers find trains crowded even if they tolerated that pre-Covid they may then avoid rail travel except as a last resort.

The principles of discounted advance fares should be
a) to get some income from a seat that would otherwise be empty
b) encourage those who are flexible when they travel to use trains with spare capacity

Trains running close to or beyond capacity should not normally have passengers holding advance tickets.

Where there are unknowns e.g. the possibility of a football match depending on the results of previous matches no discounted advance tickets should be available until known that a train or group of trains will not be used by a large number of supporters.

 

[yorksrob]

What rail needs is for the passenger load to be spread as evenly as realistic across the services that are running. If in the near future passengers find trains crowded even if they tolerated that pre-Covid they may then avoid rail travel except as a last resort.

The principles of discounted advance fares should be
a) to get some income from a seat that would otherwise be empty
b) encourage those who are flexible when they travel to use trains with spare capacity

Trains running close to or beyond capacity should not normally have passengers holding advance tickets.

Where there are unknowns e.g. the possibility of a football match depending on the results of previous matches no discounted advance tickets should be available until known that a train or group of trains will not be used by a large number of supporters.

I've said this before, but I think that yield management can be "too clever by half".

If people feel that the train company is trying to get one over on them by suddenly withdrawing fares that would normally be there, it leads to a loss of trust, bad feeling and the potential to use alternative modes in future.

 

[Bald Rick]

Where there are unknowns e.g. the possibility of a football match depending on the results of previous matches no discounted advance tickets should be available until known that a train or group of trains will not be used by a large number of supporters.

That’s really tricky, as football matches move for TV at less than a couple of weeks notice. You would lose a lot of business if the whole of the Manchester - London service was not put up for sale until 2 weeks before the FA Cup semi is confirmed, for example.

 

[AGH]

I'm a commuter into Manchester and have required to travel in periodically during the pandemic. My firm which is your atypical office company has surveyed the staff. Half don't ever want to come into the office again and the rest want to be flexible. Others in my industry are already downgrading their office needs by up to 50% and some are closing them entirely The current Covid timetable with some tweaks will be more than enough. I can't see this changing in the near future and thus it is inevitable that there will be a drive to cut costs. You can't expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab not with the current government incumbents. Staff are always an expense thats easy to cut. Don't necessarily agree but I think it's naive to think we will carry on as was.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm a commuter into Manchester and have required to travel in periodically during the pandemic. My firm which is your atypical office company has surveyed the staff. Half don't ever want to come into the office again and the rest want to be flexible. Others in my industry are already downgrading their office needs by up to 50% and some are closing them entirely The current Covid timetable with some tweaks will be more than enough. I can't see this changing in the near future and thus it is inevitable that there will be a drive to cut costs. You can't expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab not with the current government incumbents. Staff are always an expense thats easy to cut. Don't necessarily agree but I think it's naive to think we will carry on as was.

Some of the covid timetables will suffice. Some have been destroyed to the point of uselessness and need to be rebuilt.

 

[LittleAH]

I'm a commuter into Manchester and have required to travel in periodically during the pandemic. My firm which is your atypical office company has surveyed the staff. Half don't ever want to come into the office again and the rest want to be flexible. Others in my industry are already downgrading their office needs by up to 50% and some are closing them entirely The current Covid timetable with some tweaks will be more than enough. I can't see this changing in the near future and thus it is inevitable that there will be a drive to cut costs. You can't expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab not with the current government incumbents. Staff are always an expense thats easy to cut. Don't necessarily agree but I think it's naive to think we will carry on as was.

There's a massive issue here though around home working as a permanent fixture and the economy. We've already seen Town centres on their knees since the Financial crash, if your company is like so many others - we're going to see city centres on their knees too which has a massive knock on effect on jobs, prosperity and the economy.

That's why there was a push last August to return to the office and why the Chancellor has already been making those sounds again in recent weeks. While working from home is convenient to those with a nice big house - the impact to the overall economy (and I include rail jobs) will be severe. I for one can hope their will be financial incentives for companies to have offices open and those who decide that WFH is the future should pay the cost to the overall economy.

 

[philosopher]

There's a massive issue here though around home working as a permanent fixture and the economy. We've already seen Town centres on their knees since the Financial crash, if your company is like so many others - we're going to see city centres on their knees too which has a massive knock on effect on jobs, prosperity and the economy.

That's why there was a push last August to return to the office and why the Chancellor has already been making those sounds again in recent weeks. While working from home is convenient to those with a nice big house - the impact to the overall economy (and I include rail jobs) will be severe. I for one can hope their will be financial incentives for companies to have offices open and those who decide that WFH is the future should pay the cost to the overall economy.

There does seem to be an inherent contradiction between what the Chancellor is saying and what is rumoured here about large cuts to train services. Cutting train services is hardly going to encourage workers back to office, in fact it would achieve the opposite.

 

[zwk500]

There does seem to be an inherent contradiction between what the Chancellor is saying and what is rumoured here about large cuts to train services. Cutting train services is hardly going to encourage workers back to office, in fact it would achieve the opposite.

The Chancellor is saying what he wants to happen, but the control of the Chancellor over the economy is roughly equivalent to trying to manoeuvre a container ship by pulling on the ropes without any mechanical aid. In contrast, the train companies are reacting to what has happened, and anticipating what they think will happen.