Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[Energy]

I agree that hindsight is a wonderful thing. My problem with it is that the fleet was not just a consideration as a least-worst option. There were politics involved (speed of change required, specs, good old nostalgia, political pressure, etc) and for that the DfT must shoulder some of the responsibility for this mess.

Rose-tinted specs is a funny thing, that those with it on usually don't realise it (not meaning you btw). On the grapevine I was led to believe that did have something to do with going for the 442s, but plenty of people even at the time were already forecasting what a total disaster they were likely to be, given the age, poor reliability, and accessibility issues with them. This was shown to be absolutely correct with the multitude of problems encountered during the project which was way before Covid hit. It is a shame Covid signed their eventual ignominious death warrant so much can be blamed on it. Had the project persisted who knows how much more it is going to cost and how much longer it will take before they can enter service reliably, and for most likely no more than a handful of years.

If I remember correctly the 442s were basically required by the DfT in the franchise spec, Stagecoach, knowing about the issues with the 442s from their previous experience, decided not to use them.

 

[37424]

Going for something like 458's and reconfigure as required always made a lot more sense to me, but at the time in terms of wanting a quick uplift in capacity and a more Intercity spec with 2+2 seating there wasn't much else available other than the 442, but now in a different situation I'm glad they have bailed on then and gone for something more modern, and presumably won't have major problems with future tighter disability regs.

I expect it also saves the Dft the embarrassment of having loads of 20 year old 458 units that have had a lot of money spent on them sitting in a siding while the 442's can now be considered life expired.

 

[30909]

Fixed that for you.

People need to accept that pre-Covid peak demand will not be returning for some years at least; and sub-fleets like the 442s and 365s are the first on the chopping block, as they will simply not be necessary in the short to medium term..

I think that the demise of the 442 had become increasingly probable with all the delays and problems without the intervention of Covid. Though I do wonder, despite their recent good reliability, if the 458 might be considered a "sub fleet" I calculate that there are just 180 Cl 458 vehicles in DC format and I think just 120 Cl 334 vehicles in AC therefore not overwhelmingly substantial

 

[Journeyman]

I think that the demise of the 442 had become increasingly probable with all the delays and problems without the intervention of Covid. Though I do wonder, despite their recent good reliability, if the 458 might be considered a "sub fleet" I calculate that there are just 180 Cl 458 vehicles in DC format and I think just 120 Cl 334 vehicles in AC therefore not overwhelmingly substantial

The main thing is whether there's decent spares support for them, which I'm assuming there probably is. It's worth bearing in mind that the ONYX traction package used in 334s and 458s is also used in Voyagers, so the fleet using at least some components in common is somewhat bigger.

 

[infobleep]

It might be petty change in the Covid world but they wasted £45m on trains that couldn’t provide the accessibility the 21st Century railway requires. The 442s trade on their past glory in the enthusiast community but they are simply not fit for purpose now.

I hope no more pie in the sky ideas appear and we can draw their chapter to a close now.

Well at least they were used and passengers liked the refurbishment of them, abet only for a time.

Good luck with that - they don't work. They also now don't have buffets or decent first class, so I can't really see what a charter operator would want with them. They can hardly go anywhere, either.


The record breaking unit was 2401, which has already been stripped for spares and may already have been partially scrapped.

And...no. They don't work properly, have very limited route availability, and the market for luxury charters is small and already well-served. Also, look how many difficulties the Brighton Belle restoration has faced - will it ever run?

They clearly have worked or they would have been in use last year.

 

[antharro]

As huge proponent of the 442s, I'm very sad to see them go. I was pleasantly surprised when First said they were going to re-traction and re-use them, and was lucky enough to get to ride on one.

I am very much of the belief that SWT should never have got rid of them. They were doing well in service, reliability was great and they were still in their near-original configuration with the comfy seats, bar and snug. If they kept them on and maintained them to the same standards then I think they would have at least seen out the SWT franchise. But what's done is done. I think there's a driving car going to preservation somewhere, which is good. And there's a cab ride video on DVD (Video125 - "Wessex"). Everything else will be consigned to the memories and photo collections of folks who appreciated the comfy seats and good ride. And the memories of those who hated them and wanted them gone years ago.

I will be most interested to see what happens with the 458s, but that is for the other thread!

 

[adrock1976]

To save me starting at the first page and wading my way through over 200 pages, was one of major problems with the 442s in their later years that although built in 1988, the bogies and/or traction motors were from 1968 from previously scrapped trains?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I am very much of the belief that SWT should never have got rid of them. They were doing well in service, reliability was great and they were still in their near-original configuration with the comfy seats, bar and snug. If they kept them on and maintained them to the same standards then I think they would have at least seen out the SWT franchise

Whilst 442s were very nice trains in their time they never had a reputation for reliability - I think it’s fair to say the reliability of the 444s very much showed up the 442s despite the best efforts of Bournemouth Depot.

Don’t forget SWT had to return 2416 off lease in Summer 2006 to actually persuade Angel Trains to fix it properly.

 

[spark001uk]

To save me starting at the first page and wading my way through over 200 pages, was one of major problems with the 442s in their later years that although built in 1988, the bogies and/or traction motors were from 1968 from previously scrapped trains?

The motors were from the old 4REP units, yes. Which due to their age were replaced with the new traction package.
Which will never be used now.

 

[antharro]

Whilst 442s were very nice trains in their time they never had a reputation for reliability - I think it’s fair to say the reliability of the 444s very much shower up the 442s despite the best efforts of Bournemouth Depot.

I'm sure at the time they were withdrawn from SWT that they were more reliable than the 444s. Tho they certainly had their moments of being temperamental, especially with the doors.

 

[spark001uk]

And now they've finally been made more reliable, it's all going to waste. Couldn't make it up.!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Sometimes need to stand back, and take stock.

Yes there is a sunk cost (what you have already spent), but it is likely the costs to finish the project make no sense in current climate.

It not just the railways, British Airways were refitting some cabins on its 747s weeks before deciding that no longer any need and bringing withdrawal forward is only sensible economic outcome.

Like those 747s easily to strip out the seats from the 442s and reuse them in something else. I suspect those new traction packages can be reused by someone (even if they end up being sold to a railway operator in another country)

So it’s highly likely some of the money spent on new equipment can be recovered, and not continuing to spend more saves all the training (and let’s be honest, the 701 programme needs as much training time as it can get).

Commercial Reality and nostalgia don’t mix well.

I grew up in New Milton, and my parents were still there after I moved to London in 1988, so I have used them many times. I remember seeing my first one, 2401 in NSE silver and white which stopped at New Milton on a test run (with double guards van, and composite vehicle). But that was 33 or 34 years ago.

Yes they looked sleek when I first saw them, the covers over the end cables were down, and paintwork was gleaming on that first unit. (the REPs and TCs paint was bit tired by 1987) But that doesn’t mean 30+ years later they should still be patched up.

As for the 458s, when they were introduced I was living in Richmond so commuted on them, and they weren’t that reliable in early days. But I will miss the comfort of the 442s.

Finally should the 442 reuse project ever have started, with hindsight no, and whichever bean counter allowed them in SWR bid without understanding their condition, corrosion and required cost just got it wrong.

Im not nostalgic for them but I can't abide waste but its the way of the world. I doubt the seats will find a home unless they are same design as used in 444/450 refurbs so can be used as spares. The traction converters are probably standard Kieppe Electric design so can be rehomed but i suspect the motors were designed to fit the bogies space and gearing needs so might not be re-useable. The only money there likely to save is on training up the drivers as contracts have been let and equipment as been purchased by suppliers so thats got to be paid for. Reading through comments above the one key standout is there accessibility and its a wonder they could have got PRM approval in the first place and that issue in itself should have prevented them ever being considered for reuse.

 

[Ianno87]

And now they've finally been made more reliable, it's all going to waste. Couldn't make it up.!

The world has moved on. Nobody saw Covid in the crystal ball, nor could reasonably have expected to.

What is now more wasteful at this point is running round old, relatively inaccessible, units when the demand they were intended to carry has disappeared.

 

[43096]

What is now more wasteful at this point is running round old, relatively inaccessible, units when the demand they were intended to carry has disappeared.

If the demand they were intended for has disappeared why are the 458s being kept to replace them?

Covid is but a smokescreen - the 442 project has been an utter screw-up.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I'm sure at the time they were withdrawn from SWT that they were more reliable than the 444s. Tho they certainly had their moments of being temperamental, especially with the doors.

Yup my last failure on them was at Branksome in Feb 2007, and I couldn't get the spanner to fix it…(TIS job) Motors were a bit dodgy at times...Plus door control MCB wouldn't stand once when on the 0630 so out of service and empty to Bournemouth.
2413 was called The Slug at one time...I think one set of motors wasn't working properly as rumour has it...

 

[spark001uk]

If the demand they were intended for has disappeared why are the 458s being kept to replace them?

That's what I said up thread.

Bit late now, but to solve the accessibility problem I wonder if the mk3 power door mods (as done on hst coaches) would have been practical? They are after all largely a mk3 vehicle.

 

[CBlue]

Whilst 442s were very nice trains in their time they never had a reputation for reliability - I think it’s fair to say the reliability of the 444s very much shower up the 442s despite the best efforts of Bournemouth Depot.

Don’t forget SWT had to return 2416 off lease in Summer 2006 to actually persuade Angel Trains to fix it properly.

That was very much the impression most had gathered - Stagecoach certainly weren't in any rush to have the 442 fleet back. I still don't really understand the hyperbole and wibble these units generate - I've even seen posts before now that suggested fitting the modern traction motor package would make them less powerful than the ancient and outdated EE motors they had before....

 

[Goldfish62]

If the demand they were intended for has disappeared why are the 458s being kept to replace them?

Covid is but a smokescreen - the 442 project has been an utter screw-up.

Potential scenario:

With their lease expiring soon the 458s had nowhere to go. Not a good situation for the owner, Porterbrook.

Knowing that SWR were having trouble with the 442s Porterbrook made an offer to SWR (DfT) that they couldn't refuse. SWR was able to get out of the 442 lease because the units were not fit for purpose despite what Angel had initially claimed.

That's my theory anyway!

 

[Journeyman]

I still don't really understand the hyperbole and wibble these units generate

Me neither, especially because they were absolutely loathed when they were new!

 

[southern442]

To be fair, even if let's say this new demand for extra services doesn't fully materialize, there is still a demand for 2+2 stock on Portsmouth and Poole services, because passengers on SWR have been going on and on about this for what seems like forever now. The 450s are great trains but there will always be an issue for as long as they are used on these longer distance trains. So something still has to be done.

The 442s weren't the most ancient things knocking around when Southern got rid of them, and they seemed like quite a reasonable option at the time. Granted perhaps it wasn't prepared for as much as it should have been, i.e. issues which were uncovered should have been identified earlier on, but as far as SWR were concerned the only dodgy thing was the traction motors, and the success of the 455 retractioning probably led them to believe that it could've been done and dusted in a couple of years, and the assumption probably was that they could carry on working quite happily until the end of the franchise and the next TOC could then deal with replacing them. So really, whilst mistakes were made, it's less of a 'terrible idea in the first place' and more of just a very unfortunate sequence of events.

The 442s were lovely but they should just be laid to rest now. I'd love to see one preserved, but not sure if anyone would take them in their current state. I liked them on the Brighton fasts as it felt like the BML was for the first time getting proper intercity units, even if they weren't as grand as before.

As for the 458s, I think this was the right choice. They aren't totally foreign to working mainline services, Reading services are perhaps longer distance but not high speed, but they do have some experience on Alton services, and possibly others but I'm not sure. Someone has obviously worked out that refurbishing these still works out cheaper than carrying on at this stage with the 442 project, so this move will probably save a bit of money still, and don't forget that they are only a few years older than the 450s, so hypothetically if kept in good nick they won't need replacing until the 450s do.

 

[JonathanH]

To be fair, even if let's say this new demand for extra services doesn't fully materialize, there is still a demand for 2+2 stock on Portsmouth and Poole services, because passengers on SWR have been going on and on about this for what seems like forever now. The 450s are great trains but there will always be an issue for as long as they are used on these longer distance trains. So something still has to be done.

Nothing *has to* be done. 450s get the passengers to the destination. People grumble about them but they do the job and have done for almost 15 years.

Passengers "going on and on" about 2+2 stock doesn't mean the operators have to provide it.

 

[Ianno87]

If the demand they were intended for has disappeared why are the 458s being kept to replace them?

Covid is but a smokescreen - the 442 project has been an utter screw-up.

Because there's enough expected demand to justify keeping one of the 442 or 458 fleets, but not both?

I think people are looking for a conspiracy when there really, really isn't one.

 

[43096]

Because there's enough expected demand to justify keeping one of the 442 or 458 fleets, but not both?

I think people are looking for a conspiracy when there really, really isn't one.

I think you don't understand what is actually going on here. Perhaps if I spell it out for you, because you have totally missed the point.

The plan was for the 442s to come in. Separately the 458s would go when the Aventras arrive.
The plan now sees that swapped: 442s go (read: don't come in) but the 458s remain (effectively they come in to the long term fleet).

So the fleet size is (largely) the same as was planned at the franchise start, per-Covid, pre any drop in passenger numbers. So Covid is an irrelevance - there is no fleet reduction because of the virus.

 

[Ianno87]

I think you don't understand what is actually going on here. Perhaps if I spell it out for you, because you have totally missed the point.

The plan was for the 442s to come in. Separately the 458s would go when the Aventras arrive.
The plan now sees that swapped: 442s go (read: don't come in) but the 458s remain (effectively they come in to the long term fleet).

So the fleet size is (largely) the same as was planned at the franchise start. So Covid is an irrelevance - there is no fleet reduction because of the virus.

So in that case we've now ended up with a better solution with a more modern, accessible fleet. Why are people complaining?

 

[43096]

Why are people complaining?

Because £45 million has been p***ed up the wall to get to this position!

 

[Ianno87]

Because £45 million has been p***ed up the wall to get to this position!

Small potato in the context of the subsidy currently going into the rail industry ~ £700m per month.

 

[Journeyman]

Because £45 million has been p***ed up the wall to get to this position!

Is that actually going to have a measurable, demonstrable effect on anyone? This is why I can't be bothered about project cost over-runs. It makes absolutely no difference to me at all. There's bigger and better things to be angry about. Me getting stressed about this isn't going to change anything.

 

[43096]

Small potato in the context of the subsidy currently going into the rail industry.

Seriously? I despair. An industry that is under pressure in terms of cost and subsidy and demonstrates an ongoing inability to manage costs, but hey the odd £45 million squandered for no benefit is fine.

Is that actually going to have a measurable, demonstrable effect on anyone? This is why I can't be bothered about project cost over-runs. It makes absolutely no difference to me at all.

So the magic money tree pays and it's all fine?

 

[Ianno87]

Seriously? I despair. An industry that is under pressure in terms of cost and subsidy and demonstrates an ongoing inability to manage costs, but hey the odd £45 million squandered for no benefit is fine.

But I'm guessing SWR have switched the 458s precisely because it (now) saves money in the long run, with the £45m effectively sunk and can't be un-spent.

That wasn't the case back in 2017, long before Covid, when the numbers (presumably) did stack up to justify the investment.


A bit like Grand Central abandoning the Blackpool service. In spite of all the cost spent, the changed circumstances meant it was no longer a go-er.

 

[Journeyman]

So the magic money tree pays and it's all fine?

Well, lessons need to be learned, but given that (a) it's not my fault and (b) I'm not paid to worry about this stuff, I'm not going to pointlessly stress about it. That's above my pay grade, and in any case most of the problems couldn't have been reasonably foreseen. If keeping the 458s is a better option, then so be it.