I think the ‘T’ is Tourist rather than Trailer (as it is in locomotive hauled TSO vehicles).If I understand correctly -
Trailer Open (End), Trailer Open, Trailer Open (Disabled), Service Vehicle (i.e. shop/buffet car), First Open (Disabled), Drivimg Van Trailer.
I seem to remember that they were originally first class under Intercity, and GNER (as was) 'rotated' them.The Catering vehicle on a MK4 is standard class.
Not sure where you got that idea from, but there isn't going to be 1½ coaches of first class.What I can't understand is that these sets will only have 2 standard class carraiges per set. Hardly a capacity upgrade for standard class passengers over a 3 car 175.
One and a half first class carriages seems overkill compared to just two standard.
See posts #691 and #692.They will have 3 standard coaches, with just the buffet car being first.
If that's true, that's going to be very complicated on the Marches unless they get SDO fitted.I believe so...
...If what I'm told is correct they are acquiring vehicles to lengthen the three existing sets as well, so will be formed TOE-TO-TOD-SV-FOD-DVT.
Presumably that means that DB Cargo will be providing some more 67s on top of the 6 already modified.
Indeed, I got mixed up in my reply. Duly edited now.See posts #691 and #692.
What I can't understand is that these sets will only have 2 standard class carraiges per set. Hardly a capacity upgrade for standard class passengers over a 3 car 175.
One and a half first class carriages seems overkill compared to just two standard.
How do formations work? Could they not just pickup 3-4 standard class vehicles instead of having a buffet car and a whole First Class carriage? Surely there's enough spare carriages going to have a more fitting setup.
No, neither route requires a premium service. It is nothing more than a vanity project and frittering away Welsh taxpayers money.Does South Wales to Manchester need a premium service? The only reason the Cardiff - Holyhead service has them is because the Welsh Government subsidise it.
No, neither route requires a premium service. It is nothing more than a vanity project and frittering away Welsh taxpayers money.
Not that simple as you'd need SDO, and to fit the coaches for AAR, fit PIS and all the other mods that needed doing.How do formations work? Could they not just pickup 3-4 standard class vehicles instead of having a buffet car and a whole First Class carriage? Surely there's enough spare carriages going to have a more fitting setup.
Or maybe they realise that South Wales to Manchester is one of their more lucrative routes?No, neither route requires a premium service. It is nothing more than a vanity project and frittering away Welsh taxpayers money.
I wonder what routes they would be used on then ? As only Holyhead & a small part of Crewe drivers sign them in the north, it would mean probably Llandudno junction drivers & guards would be needed or more at Crewe.
If it's the GC sets they look nice after the refurbished & TFW may have got a good deal to use them after the lease company spent all that money on them.
The catering car has standard class seating, giving 2.5 std and one first.What I can't understand is that these sets will only have 2 standard class carraiges per set. Hardly a capacity upgrade for standard class passengers over a 3 car 175.
One and a half first class carriages seems overkill compared to just two standard.
Except the 57/3 can't operate in multiple with the Mk.4C DVT (when converted), or anything for that matter as the 57/3 has no multiple working. So would purely be thunderbird only duties. So the WCML thunderbird is not that suitable, nor does it being a different FoC on a service contract to a different ToC make it practicable either.Correct. You would probably need to increase the numbers of drivers (and guards) trained at the bigger existing depots as well as considering new depots to train staff. If (as suggested in the past) it was all of the Holyhead to Cardiff services plus even an odd balancing service here and there (and perhaps reliefs/specials on sporting/summer type dates), there would also be also be a case of looking at all/most of the depots en route having at least some trained staff or else the farce potential when depots have to cross cover is too high if there were say 4 or 5 weekday diagrams plus an odd set at weekends (even if you could try and avoid training any drivers at some depots). I doubt Chester, Cardiff or Crewe will ever see every driver trained on them but new links can be created or expanded if the need existed. It's a bit easier to train guards up although any with zero previous experience of loco hauled stock may not be as comfortable with the idea naturally. You could probably argue all/most that sign the route should eventually receive training.
I guess with DB desperate to replace lost work for 67s and overhauled Mk4s on stream due to the GC Blackpool loss prices were more attractive for a quality product. TFW also do have a reasonable existing competency to transfer and upgrade from mk3/mk2 sets in the past compared with most companies. Would expect the loco requirement to double even if only 8 or 9 were available to use on one day. You would also be justified in sticking a spare loco at Holyhead to act as thunderbird or replacement for sets at the north end and I'd hope there would be one at Crewe too (or use of the WCML thunderbird).
Except the 57/3 can't operate in multiple with the Mk.4C DVT (when converted), or anything for that matter as the 57/3 has no multiple working. So would purely be thunderbird only duties. So the WCML thunderbird is not that suitable, nor does it being a different FoC on a service contract to a different ToC make it practicable either.
Which will still be subject to the fact that if DRS sent it to rescue the WAG Express, it wouldn't be available for the WC Contract and would land DRS in hot water, so it wouldn't happen.My comment re the 57 was it's use in rescuing the train if somewhere within an hour of Crewe.
Which will still be subject to the fact that if DRS sent it to rescue the WAG Express, it wouldn't be available for the WC Contract and would land DRS in hot water, so it wouldn't happen.
This isn't BR days, that loco although available is busy waiting for something to do for a different company.
Actually I'm sure I recall Network Rail has the ability to requisition nearby rolling stock if needed to deal with an emergency/line blockage?
Actually I'm sure I recall Network Rail has the ability to requisition nearby rolling stock if needed to deal with an emergency/line blockage?
Don't forget Manchester is already due to get the 5-car 197s formed on the 1st class fitted 3-car sets and a 2-car set which will be attached / detached at Swansea.It's worth pointing out that if the Cardiff - Holyhead service was a stand alone route with its own dedicated fleet, a 2 hourly service would require between 5 and 6 sets (depending on stopping pattern and how tough the turn around times are). If TfW are taking on 4 extra sets that would give them a total of 7, which would fit rather nicely.
And that's before we get into the operational and political reasons why if these extra sets take are coming it seems more likely to me they'll go to Holyhead rather than Manchester.
A rescue loco couldn't sit at Chester. There is simply no room in the platforms or even parcels, and no Chester crew sign it to keep it in the nearly constantly used yard.
No other depot signs Chester yard, or even the shunts. Same for Abbey Foregate, Salop crew only.
IF and that's a big IF they decide to use more of these, then the most sensible option would be to train a small amount of Chester drivers on them. It would then have proper resilience covering all routes across the Coast, Crewe, and Salop. You realistically could have two drivers (Cardiff/Chester) covering the entire route. It could even have specials running from Liverpool through to Cardiff on sporting events.
Salop and Crewe drivers don't cover the coast, Junction and Holyhead don't cover Crewe-Salop and most don't cover Chester/Salop
The traction learning cost would be prohibitive, but it would make the services much more reliable. It's not going to happen because of the cost, but it would be the most beneficial.
Depends on the number of seats within the carriages.What I can't understand is that these sets will only have 2 standard class carraiges per set. Hardly a capacity upgrade for standard class passengers over a 3 car 175.
One and a half first class carriages seems overkill compared to just two standard.
Depends on the number of seats within the carriages.
You must remember that its got nothing to do with the number of carriages, it's about how many seats.
Ok, but whether it's 2 or 2.5 standard class carriages, that's still a downgrade from the 3 standard class carriages there were on the previous Mk3 loco hauled north - south services. TfW should be all about upgrading capacity wherever possible, especially as passengers won't be keen on being packed in crowded trains when people start travelling regularly again. Let's hope that the speculation that the Mk4 sets will have 3.5 standard carriages now is true.Depends on the number of seats within the carriages.
You must remember that its got nothing to do with the number of carriages, it's about how many seats.