How realistic are TfW's proposals for North-West Wales?

[A0]

Sorry to bring the Borders route back to this. However, we were warned that the bus pass holders would not desert the "free" bus for the "pay" train. In practice many did (pre Covid at least) with the vast majority of pensioners travelling holding senior railcards (implying that they have "bought" into the railway).

Again, anecdotally at least, on the Borders trains that I worked pre Covid, appropriately ⅓ of all passengers had tickets to/from destinations beyond Edinburgh. I would assume that Caernarfon would draw a proportion of long distance travellers too.

But ignoring the fact that before Borders the journey to the nearest railhead was 90 mins minimum by bus. With Caernarfon it's 30 minutes. That's why the two aren't comparable.

Caernarfon's travellers will already be using Bangor, because it really isn't far.

In fact I've known people who live in Criccieth to drive to Bangor when heading to London rather than use the Cambrian Coast line.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Caernarfon's travellers will already be using Bangor, because it really isn't far.

In fact I've known people who live in Criccieth to drive to Bangor when heading to London rather than use the Cambrian Coast line.

Not that surprising. Sub three and a half hour journeys possible from Bangor (Gwynedd) into Euston, earlier arrival times making a day return possible, and some direct trains from Bangor into Euston so changes en route not always required.

Whereas from Criccieth, it's invariably well over a six hour journey each way and at least two changes necessary.

 

[A0]

Not that surprising. Sub three and a half hour journeys possible from Bangor (Gwynedd) into Euston, earlier arrival times making a day return possible, and some direct trains from Bangor into Euston so changes en route not always required.

Whereas from Criccieth, it's invariably well over a six hour journey each way and at least two changes necessary.

BIB - 1 change at New St or International surely ?

 

[algytaylor]

Amlwch wouldn't need much work, the track is still there.

Caernarfon has been partly built on, but would be of considerable benefit and there's already an obvious train service to run there, too (extend the hourly Manchester-Bangor once that starts).

If you ask me I'd say the former is very unlikely (because buses on uncongested, mostly 60mph roads serve the demand perfectly well) but the latter is vaguely possible.

Yeah, that was my take on it & the query behind the original post. Amlwch looked relatively easy to reopen in practical terms to me (although I admit I know very little about this sort of thing), and I suspected the main reason it's not be happened is because it's not really financially viable to reopen the line rather than practical issues.

Bangor - Caernarfon seemed more likely to me, although I'd no idea how difficult it'd be. I'd guess Caernarfon's probably one of the bigger towns in Wales without a rail service, and it's fairly close to Bangor so it might be justifiable. I'd guessed perhaps the thing holding back that is the infrastructure cost, which is something that's more easily overcome through political will.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

BIB - 1 change at New St or International surely ?

Nothing from Criccieth beyond Machynlleth on the dates I originally checked, but, yes, anything running through from Pwllheli to Birmingham New Street would mean just one change for Euston but wouldn't reduce the overall journey time by all that much or get you into Euston particularly early doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing from Criccieth beyond Machynlleth on the dates I originally checked, but, yes, anything running through from Pwllheli to Birmingham New Street would mean just one change for Euston but wouldn't reduce the overall journey time by all that much or get you into Euston particularly early doors.

In my experience what runs through from Pwllheli to Birmingham and what doesn't has no relation whatsoever to what the timetable says does, and in practice seems to have more to do with what units Mach happens to have available and when. Often you get one more change at Shrewsbury as well because someone's let a 150 get onto the diagram.

But that doesn't at all detract from your point, though.

 

[A0]

In my experience what runs through from Pwllheli to Birmingham and what doesn't has no relation whatsoever to what the timetable says does, and in practice seems to have more to do with what units Mach happens to have available and when. Often you get one more change at Shrewsbury as well because someone's let a 150 get onto the diagram.

But that doesn't at all detract from your point, though.

I thought Machynlleth only had 158s allocated because of the radio signalling ? So if a 150 appeared on there it would have come from somewhere else. According to Wiki the only TFW depots with 150s are Canton or Crewe Carriage Sidings.

 

[Starmill]

One could argue that Stonehenge is actually example of unattractive mass tourism, and that, had the site received fewer visitors, it might have been better preserved. Either way I doubt it's a sensible comparison for North Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought Machynlleth only had 158s allocated because of the radio signalling ? So if a 150 appeared on there it would have come from somewhere else. According to Wiki the only TFW depots with 150s are Canton or Crewe Carriage Sidings.

150s get put in the diagrams from elsewhere when a 158 fails. It's a massive nuisance because it indeed can't run on the ETCS equipped routes, so you have to do a unit swap at Shrewsbury and send it back the other way.

 

[Starmill]

With regards to protecting the National Park, the real solution would be a 'Park Charge' of about £2 to bring a motorised vehicle over the boundary, unless you live inside it, or in Blaenau Ffestiniog, Barmouth, Fairbourne or Tywyn. However, as Caernarfon isn't in the Park it would probably become even more congested as a result! There needs, as ever, to be given far more thought to bus infrastructure, integration, and quality of operation before we consider the need to extend rail. However I think that Caernarfon may be a rare example of where that is actually viable some significant distance from a major city. Caernarfon - Bangor would be far more practical value to the region than the Conwy Valley is. It would also expand the reach of the Welsh Highland Railway, a major tourist operation.

 

[A0]

. It would also expand the reach of the Welsh Highland Railway, a major tourist operation.

How do you work that out?

Serious question because there's no evidence national rail connectivity has any bearing on the success or otherwise of a heritage railway.

 

[Glenn1969]

Other than it makes access to it by rail much easier

 

[Gloster]

I do not know the Caernarfon area, but I would think that any new station would be right out on the northern edge of the city. As this would be a fair distance from the WHR, I can’t see it bringing it many passengers. (The line used to pass through the centre in a tunnel, but this and its northern approach are now a road.)

Who are the potential passengers? There will be some tourists, but such traffic is seasonal and few lines survive on it. It is not likely to be a major shopping centre, as you have got to come through Bangor to get to it, so why not save or reduce your journey by visiting Bangor. There probably would be some passenger traffic related to the County Council offices, and some miscellaneous traffic (visits to family, educational trips, casual days out, etc.), but what else?

 

[A0]

Other than it makes access to it by rail much easier

Perhaps you could tell us how many people currently get to to the Ffestiniog by rail - bearing in mind that's linked to the national network at 3 stations - Ffestiniog, Minffordd and Porthmadog - I'll bet it's less than 10%.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2021 ==

I do not know the Caernarfon area, but I would think that any new station would be right out on the northern edge of the city. As this would be a fair distance from the WHR, I can’t see it bringing it many passengers. (The line used to pass through the centre in a tunnel, but this and its northern approach are now a road.)

Spot on.

And currently there are 2 buses an hour between Caernarfon and Bangor town centres taking 30 mins, yet a single track railway will at best be able to provide an hourly service, which at best is likely to take 20 mins to get between Caernarfon and Bangor.

 

[Glenn1969]

I'm not an insider so don't have access to the figures. Plus that line is a poor example because Conwy Valley has been closed for more than it has been open for at least 2 years because of weather as well as the pandemic

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I do not know the Caernarfon area, but I would think that any new station would be right out on the northern edge of the city. As this would be a fair distance from the WHR, I can’t see it bringing it many passengers. (The line used to pass through the centre in a tunnel, but this and its northern approach are now a road.)

The tunnel is actually surprisingly little used as a road, and will be even less busy once the Caernarfon bypass opens. It wouldn't be very disruptive to convert it back to railway use.

Regaining the trackbed at the northern end might be harder, and I suspect any new quayside station would probably sever Ffordd Santes Helen - but, again, that may not be too big a deal given the bypass.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Other than it makes access to it by rail much easier

Exactly. It has a very good chance of reducing cars in the National Park, particularly if it were to be integrated well with Snowdon Sherpa bus services (which Bangor isn't).

 

[A0]

Exactly. It has a very good chance of reducing cars in the National Park, particularly if it were to be integrated well with Snowdon Sherpa bus services (which Bangor isn't).

Except there is a Snowdon Sherpa service to / from Bangor during holiday periods and a regular bus from Bangor to Llanberis as the network map on the link below shows......

Snowdon Sherpa

Snowdon Sherpa

www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except there is a Snowdon Sherpa service to / from Bangor during holiday periods and a regular bus from Bangor to Llanberis as the network map on the link below shows......

I'm well aware of the layout of the bus network around the area, but I wouldn't call it well integrated. The out of town location of Bangor station doesn't help.

 

[Starmill]

How do you work that out?

Serious question because there's no evidence national rail connectivity has any bearing on the success or otherwise of a heritage railway.

I mean the fact that combined tickets are available is a bit of a giveaway

 

[A0]

I'm well aware of the layout of the bus network around the area, but I wouldn't call it well integrated. The out of town location of Bangor station doesn't help.

Eh? Those buses serve Bangor railway station...... The location of the station isn't a problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2021 ==

I mean the fact that combined tickets are available is a bit of a giveaway

And yet railways like the Nene Valley, Great Central, Bure Valley and others don't have through tickets despite close proximity to the national network.

You can buy a ticket on the national network from Penzance to Thurso, but I don't imagine too many of those are sold either.

 

[6Gman]

Yeah, that was my take on it & the query behind the original post. Amlwch looked relatively easy to reopen in practical terms to me (although I admit I know very little about this sort of thing), and I suspected the main reason it's not be happened is because it's not really financially viable to reopen the line rather than practical issues.

Bangor - Caernarfon seemed more likely to me, although I'd no idea how difficult it'd be. I'd guess Caernarfon's probably one of the bigger towns in Wales without a rail service, and it's fairly close to Bangor so it might be justifiable. I'd guessed perhaps the thing holding back that is the infrastructure cost, which is something that's more easily overcome through political will.

There is, or was, a bunch of volunteers "maintaining" the Amlwch branch for a potential reopening. I don't think anyone has the heart to tell them they're wasting their time and that spraying a few weeds and prising a bit of ballast apart ain't going to keep a railway fit for future passenger use.

There seems to be an assumption that Bangor - Caernarfon would be an easy reopening. Have a look at google maps and try to trace the route.

Problems:

Crossing the A55 and its feeder roads just beyond the junction at Menai Briadge.
Ponder the route through the Parc Menai business park, including a rather large warehouse which appears to be slapbang across the route.
Navigate the Felinheli area: the bypass appears to use part of the route at both sides of the town (town? village?).
From Felinheli to the outskirts of Caernarfon you could use the cycleway, and it seems relatively straightforward.
And then at Caernarfon you have to either place the station very much on the outskirts or engage in some major demolition.

Getting any further would be very, very, very tricky - Morrisons, Galeri, Victoria Dock, tunnelling under the town, getting past Slate Quay, coping with the Welsh Highland . . . the problems pile up.

 

[algytaylor]

There is, or was, a bunch of volunteers "maintaining" the Amlwch branch for a potential reopening. I don't think anyone has the heart to tell them they're wasting their time and that spraying a few weeds and prising a bit of ballast apart ain't going to keep a railway fit for future passenger use.

There seems to be an assumption that Bangor - Caernarfon would be an easy reopening. Have a look at google maps and try to trace the route.

Problems:

Crossing the A55 and its feeder roads just beyond the junction at Menai Briadge.
Ponder the route through the Parc Menai business park, including a rather large warehouse which appears to be slapbang across the route.
Navigate the Felinheli area: the bypass appears to use part of the route at both sides of the town (town? village?).
From Felinheli to the outskirts of Caernarfon you could use the cycleway, and it seems relatively straightforward.
And then at Caernarfon you have to either place the station very much on the outskirts or engage in some major demolition.

Getting any further would be very, very, very tricky - Morrisons, Galeri, Victoria Dock, tunnelling under the town, getting past Slate Quay, coping with the Welsh Highland . . . the problems pile up.

Just looked at the OS Maps for the area ... yeah, it looks like the old route went through Treborth (now built over by Parc Menai Business Park), Port Dinorwic (looks like the old line has been built over in Felinheli), and Griffiths Crossing (probably the only part of the line that it's possible to reinstate, since it's a cycle path).

Seems like the only one that's realistic to reopen - and even then it's to be taken with a large pinch of salt - would be Gobowen - Oswestry.

 

[A0]

Just looked at the OS Maps for the area ... yeah, it looks like the old route went through Treborth (now built over by Parc Menai Business Park), Port Dinorwic (looks like the old line has been built over in Felinheli), and Griffiths Crossing (probably the only part of the line that it's possible to reinstate, since it's a cycle path).

The formation looks clear if you compare Google Earth with an OS map - it appears to have been kept clear and the big building "Red House Bookshop" is on top of a tunnel by the looks of things, which comes out south of the A487. It looks like the A487 has had some of the formation around Felinheli, but after that it's clear to the outskirts of Caernarfon, but that's when it gets difficult as you have a Morrisons supermarket in the way. And I'll quote @Bald Rick at this point who's response to somebody suggesting for moving Tesco's in Haverhill to allow the railway to be rebuilt there: "Doing something seemingly simple like moving Tesco is really rather hard. And expensive. You wouldn’t get change out if £50m, at a guess." so there's another cost if the desire was to get all the way into Caernarfon.

Seems like the only one that's realistic to reopen - and even then it's to be taken with a large pinch of salt - would be Gobowen - Oswestry.

This one has a problem - the level crossing on the A5. Level crossings are a big no-no nowadays and particularly ones on major trunk routes. And before anyone pipes up with any of the normal Spartist nonsense about it being all the road's fault, two points, it's the rail industry at the behest of the unions who are pushing for many level crossing closures on the basis of safety. Secondly, when the A5 by pass around Gobowen and Oswestry was built, the railway was bridged north of Gobowen, so BR were consulted and evidently didn't feel the need for a bridge on the Oswestry branch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The formation looks clear if you compare Google Earth with an OS map - it appears to have been kept clear and the big building "Red House Bookshop" is on top of a tunnel by the looks of things, which comes out south of the A487. It looks like the A487 has had some of the formation around Felinheli, but after that it's clear to the outskirts of Caernarfon, but that's when it gets difficult as you have a Morrisons supermarket in the way. And I'll quote @Bald Rick at this point who's response to somebody suggesting for moving Tesco's in Haverhill to allow the railway to be rebuilt there: "Doing something seemingly simple like moving Tesco is really rather hard. And expensive. You wouldn’t get change out if £50m, at a guess." so there's another cost if the desire was to get all the way into Caernarfon.

I think people are overtalking the issues caused by basically having the station in Morrisons' car park* (near enough) by talking about the "other end of the city" as if it was Manchester. Caernarfon is relatively small in the scheme of things, and what you're talking about is a not unpleasant walk of about half a kilometre, or not much different than from Porthmadog mainline station to the other end of the WHR. Given that tourists are mostly not people who are doing a non-stop railtour, getting off there and wandering through town, perhaps via the chippy or pub, is not going to be a great off-putter.

It's not even slightly the same problem as non-co-located bus** and railway stations as you have at Bangor. It's also pretty much where it used to be anyway!

FWIW though from a bit of Google Maps-ing it appears you could reinstate the old route without too much of an issue as the tunnel is still there in road use and there appears to be an unobstructed route through to it (across car parks, which are about the cheapest thing to move).

* The Victoria Dock car park, which is behind said Morrisons, would seem a good site for it, indeed. No need to demolish anything.

** Though you might want to move the bus terminus there too, certainly for Snowdon Sherpa services, and just have them call at the present tip of a "bus station" on the way out.

 

[A0]

I think people are overtalking the issues caused by basically having the station in Morrisons' car park* (near enough) by talking about the "other end of the city" as if it was Manchester. Caernarfon is relatively small in the scheme of things, and what you're talking about is a not unpleasant walk of about half a kilometre, or not much different than from Porthmadog mainline station to the other end of the WHR. Given that tourists are mostly not people who are doing a non-stop railtour, getting off there and wandering through town, perhaps via the chippy or pub, is not going to be a great off-putter.

It's not even slightly the same problem as non-co-located bus** and railway stations as you have at Bangor. It's also pretty much where it used to be anyway!

FWIW though from a bit of Google Maps-ing it appears you could reinstate the old route without too much of an issue as the tunnel is still there in road use and there appears to be an unobstructed route through to it (across car parks, which are about the cheapest thing to move).

* The Victoria Dock car park, which is behind said Morrisons, would seem a good site for it, indeed. No need to demolish anything.

** Though you might want to move the bus terminus there too, certainly for Snowdon Sherpa services, and just have them call at the present tip of a "bus station" on the way out.

BIB - apart from the Morrison's petrol station and the approach route into their car park. See map from Google Earth - in fact at best you'd have to go right through the middle of the petrol station footprint, because the border on the north is a drop down to the footpath which borders the Menai - but as you know the area so well (from what you keep telling us) you knew that already.

And the Victoria carpark is about 12'-18' lower than either the Morrisons store or petrol station, but again, you knew that didn't you ?

Lastly the only way you'd get to the tunnel would be full demolition of the Morrison's store - you can clearly see the route the line took from as the line to the tunnel is along the edge of the Balaclafa carpark which is immediately behind Morrisons. Even if you did get through the tunnel, where would you put a station at the other end ? The only way would either be to move the WHR further down the line OR demolish the whole of St Helen's road from the tunnel exit to wherever the station would end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

BIB - apart from the Morrison's petrol station and the approach route into their car park. See map from Google Earth - in fact at best you'd have to go right through the middle of the petrol station footprint, because the border on the north is a drop down to the footpath which borders the Menai - but as you know the area so well (from what you keep telling us) you knew that already.

How wide do you think a single-track railway line needs to be?

And the Victoria carpark is about 12'-18' lower than either the Morrisons store or petrol station, but again, you knew that didn't you ?

Building embankments is hardly the biggest challenge in railway engineering, is it?

 

[A0]

How wide do you think a single-track railway line needs to be?



Building embankments is hardly the biggest challenge in railway engineering, is it?

I'm going to guess 8' *at least* and I very much doubt you've got that behind the petrol station, let alone the foundations in place to run a heavy rail line along there.

But I'm not a civil or rail engineer (and I'm guessing you're not either) so I'll happily defer to those around here who are and can give a more definitive answer.

 

[algytaylor]

This one has a problem - the level crossing on the A5. Level crossings are a big no-no nowadays and particularly ones on major trunk routes. And before anyone pipes up with any of the normal Spartist nonsense about it being all the road's fault, two points, it's the rail industry at the behest of the unions who are pushing for many level crossing closures on the basis of safety. Secondly, when the A5 by pass around Gobowen and Oswestry was built, the railway was bridged north of Gobowen, so BR were consulted and evidently didn't feel the need for a bridge on the Oswestry branch.

Yeah, that was pretty much the reasoning behind my "with a large pinch of salt" comment. It's more likely, but still not *very* likely. Out of interest, would it be a prohibitively big task to add a bridge so that the A5 went over the tracks? Bearing in mind you could do it whilst the railway was still closed - so potentially you could build a brand new bridge next to the A5, divert the A5 over the bridge, and then start running trains. Or is that prohibitively complicated?

Just trying to get my head around what's "difficult" and "easy" for this sort of thing

 

[6Gman]

The formation looks clear if you compare Google Earth with an OS map - it appears to have been kept clear and the big building "Red House Bookshop" is on top of a tunnel by the looks of things, which comes out south of the A487.

I wondered where Treborth Tunnel had gone !