Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[lkpridgeon]

All very valid responses.

However none of them will give me the seat reservation which I require to be able to travel.

As it currently stands I believe the onus is on them to ensure you can complete your journey through alternative means or provide accommodation until they can (assuming you have a valid ticket). So if you were to ask I'd expect them to give you some form of reservation/permission to travel on a service.

I nearly hit this issue on Friday however luckily hull trains are running. So haven't needed to kick a fuss with them just yet

Ref recent posts regarding there seemingly being a limit of 2 reservations per email address per day:

Link to LNER website, which clearly states one can, in theory, make the same journey multiple times per day with a season (or for that matter, rover) ticket.

How can multiple repeat journeys per day be made if there's a limit to the number of reservations per email address per day?

Via twitter or a booking office they will do it without the restriction currently however you may have to wait.

Overall I see long term compulsory reservations unworkable for anyone with a ticket with any degree of flexibility or when there's the slightest bit of disruption

 

[Bletchleyite]

Question:

I decide after a day out in (say) York that I'll catch the train home after an evening meal. I have a flexible return ticket, however none of that day's remaining services have any reservation availability.

How do I get home?

With compulsory reservations what you do is that you book a reservation on the latest train you are likely to want (because you are going to want to get home that day), then if you look likely to finish earlier you move it to an earlier train if there is space.

All very valid responses.

However none of them will give me the seat reservation which I require to be able to travel.

Ref recent posts regarding there seemingly being a limit of 2 reservations per email address per day:

Link to LNER website, which clearly states one can, in theory, make the same journey multiple times per day with a season (or for that matter, rover) ticket.

How can multiple repeat journeys per day be made if there's a limit to the number of reservations per email address per day?

This is a fault with a cobbled-together-quickly system by LNER, not a fault with compulsory reservations. If they were to be implemented with global fares, then your ticket is your reservation so you can't make lots of them. If they were implemented with the present fare structure you could have the system require you to enter the ticket number, and not allow another reservation with the same ticket number (unless a Rover) on that day.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Does this mean that a season ticket holder would have to go to a ticket office to block-book their reservations for the week or take their chances on the day? If so, then you run the risk of people with open tickets to Edinburgh being refused travel because of the seats that have been taken by Stevenage and Peterborough commuters, when they’d accept standing for half an hour given the choice.

I can’t remember the last time I went further than Leeds-Doncaster with them on an open ticket, which probably puts it in the early 2000s. To my mind it’s a sledgehammer to crack a walnut when modern technology allows reservations to be made while the train is en route for those who wish to make them.

Season ticket holders have can email our CSC to block book reservations.

 

[Dave91131]

With compulsory reservations what you do is that you book a reservation on the latest train you are likely to want (because you are going to want to get home that day), then if you look likely to finish earlier you move it to an earlier train if there is space.

Thanks for your response - perhaps I should have been a bit more detailed in my initial post:

I've purchased my flexible return ticket, made my outward reservation, but having decided during my outward journey (say 9-10am) I'll return from York no earlier than, say, 7pm, I discover no trains after, say, 3pm have any availability.

The purpose of my journey is therefore null and void as I can't do everything I want to do in the time available before the last train home with availability.

Would LNER's attitude essentially be "tough luck, you should have planned your day of leisure in more detail before using our services, kip on a bench"?

They of course could use discretion as per another reply, but then the system is totally made a mockery of.

It just, to me, stinks of another pie in the sky idea by a person or persons with no grip on reality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd book the latest likely return reservation when you purchase your outward (not once on the way), so you are sure of a train home that day. Then change it to earlier if you need to and there is availability.

 

[Bikeman78]

Thanks for your response - perhaps I should have been a bit more detailed in my initial post:

I've purchased my flexible return ticket, made my outward reservation, but having decided during my outward journey (say 9-10am) I'll return from York no earlier than, say, 7pm, I discover no trains after, say, 3pm have any availability.

The purpose of my journey is therefore null and void as I can't do everything I want to do in the time available before the last train home with availability.

Would LNER's attitude essentially be "tough luck, you should have planned your day of leisure in more detail before using our services, kip on a bench"?

They of course could use discretion as per another reply, but then the system is totally made a mockery of.

It just, to me, stinks of another pie in the sky idea by a person or persons with no grip on reality.

The more I read, the more depressing it sounds. I'm not a technophobe but faffing about with reservations for trains within the UK is not something I've ever bothered with. Fortunately I've no real need to use LNER. On XC I only use the class 170 routes. I have no desire to go on Voyagers. The only TOC that I might need to use is Avanti when going to Scotland. Although Trenspennine provides an alternative there.

 

[Dave91131]

You'd book the latest likely return reservation when you purchase your outward (not once on the way), so you are sure of a train home that day. Then change it to earlier if you need to and there is availability.

Irrespective of method of purchase (staff member in ticket office, TVM, online etc), is the "system" clever enough to refuse to sell a passenger a flexible day return ticket from A to B, if no trains returning from B to A that day have reservation availability?

Again thanks to @Bletchleyite for their responses - I'm not trying to catch anybody out, just trying to understand the system as much as possible for future reference (though with each reply so far it's nudging me more and more to using the tried and trusted 2004 Nissan).

 

[geoffk]

I've been away from RailUKForums for three weeks as I've moved house and had to wait to get broadband in my new home. I see that this thread, started in February, is still going on. I've not time to read through 21 pages of posts so is this a serious proposal by LNER or is it still speculation? I now live in Exeter so won't be affected, unless of course GWR and XC have similar ideas.

 

[Bevan Price]

With compulsory reservations what you do is that you book a reservation on the latest train you are likely to want (because you are going to want to get home that day), then if you look likely to finish earlier you move it to an earlier train if there is space.



This is a fault with a cobbled-together-quickly system by LNER, not a fault with compulsory reservations. If they were to be implemented with global fares, then your ticket is your reservation so you can't make lots of them. If they were implemented with the present fare structure you could have the system require you to enter the ticket number, and not allow another reservation with the same ticket number (unless a Rover) on that day.

Rovers - what are they ? The logical follow-on from LNER's daft idea is that Rover tickets will no longer be valid on their trains.

 

[43096]

You'd book the latest likely return reservation when you purchase your outward (not once on the way), so you are sure of a train home that day. Then change it to earlier if you need to and there is availability.

What an utter load of nonsense. In case you hadn't noticed, passenger numbers have crashed through the floor over the last 12 months. The railway needs to get people back on the trains and making it harder to do so is not the way to go about it - we should be making it easier for people to travel rather than adding various hoops and jumps to the process. Ultimately people will vote with their feet - and take the car.

 

[Butts]

What an utter load of nonsense. In case you hadn't noticed, passenger numbers have crashed through the floor over the last 12 months. The railway needs to get people back on the trains and making it harder to do so is not the way to go about it - we should be making it easier for people to travel rather than adding various hoops and jumps to the process. Ultimately people will vote with their feet - and take the car.

Or foot if it's an automatic

 

[43096]

Or foot if it's an automatic

 

[800001]

I've been away from RailUKForums for three weeks as I've moved house and had to wait to get broadband in my new home. I see that this thread, started in February, is still going on. I've not time to read through 21 pages of posts so is this a serious proposal by LNER or is it still speculation? I now live in Exeter so won't be affected, unless of course GWR and XC have similar ideas.

All pure speculation based on questions sent to certain customers of lner

 

[181]

I've been away from RailUKForums for three weeks as I've moved house and had to wait to get broadband in my new home. I see that this thread, started in February, is still going on. I've not time to read through 21 pages of posts so is this a serious proposal by LNER or is it still speculation? I now live in Exeter so won't be affected, unless of course GWR and XC have similar ideas.

All pure speculation based on questions sent to certain customers of lner

Those questions are why the thread has been revived recently, but much of the discussion is a continuation of the original discussion resulting from the Modern Railways article mentioned in the OP, which I haven't read but which if reported correctly implies that some level of compulsion post-COVID is being seriously considered. Somewhere in the middle of the thread there's a comment from someone else who had read the article and got the impression that it didn't necessarily mean compulsory reservations across the board (you can see them doing it just for departures from King's Cross at busy times); on the other hand, LNER are (as I understand) currently insisting on reservations for all travel, so until they relax this (if they do) it's an issue for people currently planning journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rovers - what are they ? The logical follow-on from LNER's daft idea is that Rover tickets will no longer be valid on their trains.

Rover tickets, for all I use them myself, are a very niche product used basically only by enthusiasts and should not, as such, even figure in discussions about fares policy.

Irrespective of method of purchase (staff member in ticket office, TVM, online etc), is the "system" clever enough to refuse to sell a passenger a flexible day return ticket from A to B, if no trains returning from B to A that day have reservation availability?

Again thanks to @Bletchleyite for their responses - I'm not trying to catch anybody out, just trying to understand the system as much as possible for future reference (though with each reply so far it's nudging me more and more to using the tried and trusted 2004 Nissan).

I think that's a bit of a "culture change" thing. In countries where this has been the case since the year dot, everyone knows that you have to book in advance for InterCity type trains, so just wouldn't even buy an open day return for a journey where there isn't a regional service which didn't have reservations.

You could easily put on a comprehensive publicity campaign to make sure it was as well-known here.

Those questions are why the thread has been revived recently, but much of the discussion is a continuation of the original discussion resulting from the Modern Railways article mentioned in the OP, which I haven't read but which if reported correctly implies that some level of compulsion post-COVID is being seriously considered. Somewhere in the middle of the thread there's a comment from someone else who had read the article and got the impression that it didn't necessarily mean compulsory reservations across the board (you can see them doing it just for departures from King's Cross at busy times); on the other hand, LNER are (as I understand) currently insisting on reservations for all travel, so until they relax this (if they do) it's an issue for people currently planning journeys.

Indeed, I started the thread based on that MR article, I believe it has been quoted upthread exactly what was said.

 

[STINT47]

I will be using a north East rover in a couple of month and having to make reservations will be a pain.

To be fair most routes have a cross country or trans pennine alternative but that could see packed 4 and 5 car trains whilst 9 car LNER trains go half empty.

It looks like making a reservation, even at the last minute is at the moment relatively easy. But if passenger numbers go up who knows?

Perhaps the cost of seasons, open and rover tickets will cone down to a level just above the advanced price? You will still be paying more as your ticket can be amended or cancelled but it a reduction would reflect that these tickets are less flexible.

PS For a short hop like Doncaster to York I'd be half tempted to just get on anyway. Not sure if staff can do anything if your getting off at the next stop.

 

[Kite159]

Picture this, a "sold out" train is booked for 10 coaches, but due to an issue only 5 coaches roll in. Anybody with seats in the unit which no longer exists won't be allowed in the other 5 coaches as they won't have a reservation and it's fully booked.

Oh sorry sir, you will have to travel on the next train which has seats available, that will be the last train of the day getting into your destination after midnight, along with all the drunks who have been out drinking for the last 3 hours due to being unable to get an earlier train.

LNER will love to be able to get away from the current fare system, to allow them to charge skyhigh prices on the extremely high demand trains (Edinburgh to London on a bank holiday Monday when the WCML is closed), where they are capped at the off-peak single price.

Oh also you want to reserve a table seat? That will cost you an extra £5+

 

[Bletchleyite]

Picture this, a "sold out" train is booked for 10 coaches, but due to an issue only 5 coaches roll in. Anybody with seats in the unit which no longer exists won't be allowed in the other 5 coaches as they won't have a reservation and it's fully booked.

Or you allow standing only in case of disruption of this kind.

Oh sorry sir, you will have to travel on the next train which has seats available, that will be the last train of the day getting into your destination after midnight, along with all the drunks who have been out drinking for the last 3 hours due to being unable to get an earlier train.

LNER will love to be able to get away from the current fare system, to allow them to charge skyhigh prices on the extremely high demand trains (Edinburgh to London on a bank holiday Monday when the WCML is closed), where they are capped at the off-peak single price.

Oh also you want to reserve a table seat? That will cost you an extra £5+

As I've said many times and will again, fares policy is separate from compulsory reservations. You can have compulsory reservations with the existing fares structure (as they have now, in fact), and you can have optional reservations with a fare structure on which the only walk up fare is the relatively high Anytime, which is how DB do it.

 

[43096]

Or you allow standing only in case of disruption of this kind.

So you might just as well allow standing at other times.

 

[Kite159]

So you might just as well allow standing at other times.

Agreed, just think of those people in the unit which exists getting a worse journey with people standing, can't have that, the vocal minority of that person who travels once a blue moon won't be happy with the atmosphere created by standing passengers

Reminds me last year when the wires came down around Newark, it was chaos with cancellations and announcements that you MUST have a seat reservation. An Edinburgh bound Azuma rolling into Newcastle where due to a 3 hour delay got terminated with passengers told they could carry on, but they MUST have a reservation on any other LNER services which were still running.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Working at Paddington Station 30 years ago I once got so fed up with having to stand for the 35-minute daily commute home on the always-crowded 17:12 to Didcot that I finally decided to reserve myself a seat. So during my lunchbreak I walked down to the Reservations Office on Platform 1 and joined the queue. People ahead of me were booking continental journeys, sleepers and all sorts of complicated itineraries. Finally my turn came and my seat was duly reserved. I looked at my watch. I'd been standing in the queue for precisely 35 minutes. I didn't bother again!

 

[JonathanH]

Working at Paddington Station 30 years ago I once got so fed up with having to stand for the 35-minute daily commute home on the always-crowded 17:12 to Didcot that I finally decided to reserve myself a seat. So during my lunchbreak I walked down to the Reservations Office on Platform 1 and joined the queue. People ahead of me were booking continental journeys, sleepers and all sorts of complicated itineraries. Finally my turn came and my seat was duly reserved. I looked at my watch. I'd been standing in the queue for precisely 35 minutes. I didn't bother again!

Yes, but that was 30 years ago when reservations had to be made at a station booking office. In the current age, LNER would be making it straightforward to book reservations online.

 

[Grumbler]

Yes, but that was 30 years ago when reservations had to be made at a station booking office. In the current age, LNER would be making it straightforward to book reservations online.

Let us suppose you book a journey involving connecting on to an LNER service. Your first train is delayed so you miss your connection, and now you have to find a quiet spot at an unfamiliar interchange and fiddle with your mobile phone to try to book on the next available service, all the time looking after your luggage. Perhaps the waiting rooms are shut and it is raining, or you can't get a signal or your phone's battery decides to give up. Is this what you call "straightforward"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let us suppose you book a journey involving connecting on to an LNER service. Your first train is delayed so you miss your connection, and now you have to find a quiet spot at an unfamiliar interchange and fiddle with your mobile phone to try to book on the next available service, all the time looking after your luggage. Perhaps the waiting rooms are shut and it is raining, or you can't get a signal or your phone's battery decides to give up. Is this what you call "straightforward"?

The rather nicer version of this is that you've booked a through journey (doesn't matter if the ticket is split for these purposes, indeed if they do go the way of global fares it can't not be), and so the system knows you're going to miss the connection, and has already automatically rebooked you and emailed you your new connections all the way through and seat reservation details, and confirmed that they've automatically submitted your Delay Repay claim, before you've even opened the door.

OK, this rather assumes the railway learns what customer service is - but if everyone has a booked journey it's this sort of thing that can actually be really, really helpful.

 

[zwk500]

The rather nicer version of this is that you've booked a through journey (doesn't matter if the ticket is split for these purposes, indeed if they do go the way of global fares it can't not be), and so the system knows you're going to miss the connection, and has already automatically rebooked you and emailed you your new connections all the way through and seat reservation details, and confirmed that they've automatically submitted your Delay Repay claim, before you've even opened the door.

OK, this rather assumes the railway learns what customer service is - but if everyone has a booked journey it's this sort of thing that can actually be really, really helpful.

Or the railway does what it currently does (e.g. for advances that require a seat booking): if it's the railway's fault, they'll honour your ticket on the next train without requiring rebooking (but don't guarantee you a seat)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or the railway does what it currently does (e.g. for advances that require a seat booking): if it's the railway's fault, they'll honour your ticket on the next train without requiring rebooking (but don't guarantee you a seat)

Don't know about you, but I'd rather a seat was rebooked for me, ideally with my preferences, than having to risk standing all the way.

Of course I suppose there's no reason this couldn't be done with reservations optional, it's not like they haven't got the data if you book with an itinerary.

 

[JonathanH]

Or the railway does what it currently does (e.g. for advances that require a seat booking): if it's the railway's fault, they'll honour your ticket on the next train without requiring rebooking (but don't guarantee you a seat)

Yes, but I think we are suggesting that rather than simply getting honoured on the next train, on which there may not be space, the reservation should actually be rebooked (by the railway) on the next train that has space, whenever that may be, just as it would be on a plane.

That reservation should be reissued on a new ticket or through whatever other ticket media has been used (eg smartphone application).

Most 'normal' passengers would want the comfort of having a new reservation for the rebooked train, particularly those less familiar with the railway, that someone simply saying 'catch the next train' with no evidence to prove that is officially valid.

 

[yorkie]

Don't know about you, but I'd rather a seat was rebooked for me, ideally with my preferences, than having to risk standing all the way.

Not everyone has the luxury of having spare time to waiting several hours for a train with spare reservations; some people just want to get to where they are going!

 

[zwk500]

Don't know about you, but I'd rather a seat was rebooked for me, ideally with my preferences, than having to risk standing all the way.

I'd rather it handled it all for you (with your preferences from the original booking noted where possible). But I doubt that anything will be introduced in the next 5 years that will do that.

Of course I suppose there's no reason this couldn't be done with reservations optional.

Indeed - as long as the total quota of reservable seats hasn't been exceeded.

However there is a potential problem if a passenger decided to modify their itinerary due to late running. E.g. MK-Leeds can be done with changing at Birmingham, Tamworth or Manchester depending on how the connections work and so on. If you're running late you may have a better connection via a different route (as long as the ticket was valid), rather than having to sit around waiting. Especially if, say, the route was blocked. You wouldn't want an endless stream of emails constantly rebooking you, and by the 3rd delayed train the system would be full.

 

[greyman42]

How is this going to work after a football game at Newcastle when you have hordes travelling back to Durham and Darlington? The police will have no interest in enforcing it.