Uckfield line to be electrified?

[zwk500]

Could the Uckfield branch not itself be the trial location?

Trial for what? 3rd rail supply can hardly really be described as in the 'experimental' phase. Batteries have already been trialled on an electrostar in Anglia, and abroad are getting near a mature technology (or are there already).

Isnt one of the prerequisites a new national grid connection near the Uckfield end? What's the lead time for that?

Not necessarily. The capability of the existing connection to cover the branch is part of the business case. It will depend on the efficiency of the system installed and the theoretical demands on the supply between Croydon and Hurst Green while Uckfield remains the terminus.

 

[Bald Rick]

Isnt one of the prerequisites a new national grid connection near the Uckfield end? What's the lead time for that?

A connection to the local grid rather than national grid, but yes.

 

[paul1609]

Trial for what? 3rd rail supply can hardly really be described as in the 'experimental' phase. Batteries have already been trialled on an electrostar in Anglia, and abroad are getting near a mature technology (or are there already).

Problem is that the batteries on the Anglia Electrostar were pretty much knackered after 6 months of very limited test running on a short electrified branch. It did not test charging off a limited supply dc system. There are newer batteries technologies available but they bring their own problems ask motorcycle friends why you shouldnt jump start a bike with one of the now common lithium batteries!
The only in service dc units with batteries in the UK are the Stadler 777 units none of which have had their mainline batteries fitted due to problems with the trials I believe.

Not necessarily. The capability of the existing connection to cover the branch is part of the business case. It will depend on the efficiency of the system installed and the theoretical demands on the supply between Croydon and Hurst Green while Uckfield remains the terminus.

Wouldnt they be better off looking at the Tonbridge to Redhill Line that passes overhead? That was specifically electrified for channel tunnel freight but generally now has one 377 shuttling back and forth.

 

[Bald Rick]

Problem is that the batteries on the Anglia Electrostar were pretty much knackered after 6 months of very limited test running on a short electrified branch. It did not test charging off a limited supply dc system. There are newer batteries technologies available but they bring their own problems ask motorcycle friends why you shouldnt jump start a bike with one of the now common lithium batteries!
The only in service dc units with batteries in the UK are the Stadler 777 units none of which have had their mainline batteries fitted due to problems with the trials I believe.

Battery issues seem to have been resolved elsewhere in the world, so it’s definitely possible.

Wouldnt they be better off looking at the Tonbridge to Redhill Line that passes overhead? That was specifically electrified for channel tunnel freight but generally now has one 377 shuttling back and forth.

AIUI there’s a need for a connection at the Uckfield end.

 

[Minstral25]

Wouldnt they be better off looking at the Tonbridge to Redhill Line that passes overhead? That was specifically electrified for channel tunnel freight but generally now has one 377 shuttling back and forth.

Three Class 377/3's normally shuttling back and forth - need two minimum for an hourly service as it a 31 minute journey time plus one for peak extras needed for school children at Tonbridge end.

 

[RobShipway]

If Uckfield is not electrified, then you need class 755 bi mode trains, but with batteries instead of a diesel engine that can work on DC power and that has regenerative braking where, the power in the braking on DC line gets inserted back into the battery packs as well as those packs being charged as the train runs. At the Uckfield end, there would also have to be a point that a train can be recharged from local mains if required.

But since there has been issues with the class 777 units, I doubt that the above will happen.

 

[HSTEd]

Clearly what you need is a lashup of 442s and those 1500hp Class 73 rebuilds.



I will see myself out.

 

[RobShipway]

Clearly what you need is a lashup of 442s and those 1500hp Class 73 rebuilds.



I will see myself out.

Aren't the class 442's being used on the GWML instead of the class 800's?

 

[D365]

Aren't the class 442's being used on the GWML instead of the class 800's?

Not for too long we hope, the 442s are needed elsewhere.

 

[HSTEd]

Aren't the class 442's being used on the GWML instead of the class 800's?

I'd argue that this plan is actually one that 442s are somewhat suited to, what with the shared multiple working equipment and third rail.

It's still stupid though

 

[RobShipway]

I'd argue that this plan is actually one that 442s are somewhat suited to, what with the shared multiple working equipment and third rail.

It's still stupid though

It was said tongue in cheek, as it has been said many times in these forums before.

 

[JohnElliott]

I'd argue that this plan is actually one that 442s are somewhat suited to, what with the shared multiple working equipment and third rail.

It's still stupid though

And all it needs is for Oxted Tunnel to be rebored...

 

[HSTEd]

And all it needs is for Oxted Tunnel to be rebored...

Or singled, or fitted with a gauntlet track

 

[paul1609]

And all it needs is for Oxted Tunnel to be rebored...

Arent the 442s the same size as 171s?

 

[Recessio]

Arent the 442s the same size as 171s?

Mark 3 derived stock is banned from the Oxted tunnel - as the 171s fit, I'm assuming not?

Either way 442s clearly aren't an option for this line, or any line except the one to the scrapyard.

 

[MatthewRead]

I recently spoke to a member of Southern staff the other day and he told me that the Uckfield line is not going to be electrified due to costs can someone please enlighten me here?

 

[Bald Rick]

I recently spoke to a member of Southern staff the other day and he told me that the Uckfield line is not going to be electrified due to costs can someone please enlighten me here?

The only way I can enlighten you is to say that talking to staff who work in a different part of the rail industry, and have no direct involvement in a project is not the best way to find out what is happening on a project.

 

[Tio Terry]

I see the Williams-Shapps report mentions the possibility of further 3rd rail electrification for "infill" projects. But is no more specific than that.

 

[HST43257]

I see the Williams-Shapps report mentions the possibility of further 3rd rail electrification for "infill" projects. But is no more specific than that.

To me that points to Marshlink and Uckfield

 

[Tio Terry]

To me that points to Marshlink and Uckfield

Some will include North Downs. Time will tell.

Following Brexit I guess the UK is no longer bound by Technical Standards for Interoperability in that the UK can decide which, if any, lines need to be interoperable. TSI's didn't actually prevent any further 3rd rail electrification, there was a UK exemption for infill schemes anyway, but the DfT attitude was that the risks were too great.

The UK is still bound to follow CSM-RA in that it is specified by ROGS so would need an act of Parliament to change that, so I guess any further 3rd rail electrification would need to be risk assessed in accordance with ROGS and the DfT would need to be satisfied with the risk mitigations.

 

[CBlue]

The only way I can enlighten you is to say that talking to staff who work in a different part of the rail industry, and have no direct involvement in a project is not the best way to find out what is happening on a project.

To be fair to the member you quoted, he's posted info from wnxx as if it was gospel too...but I'm sure we're all aware that platform staff make decisions over such things as electrification

 

[Chrisgr31]

I recently spoke to a member of Southern staff the other day and he told me that the Uckfield line is not going to be electrified due to costs can someone please enlighten me here?

Perhaps he should tell the boss that! As Steve White of GTR confirmed that Southern and Network Rail are looking in to the costs of electrifying the Uckfield line. Doesn’t mean it will happen though! However there does appear to be a positive story at present.

 

[Minstral25]

Perhaps he should tell the boss that! As Steve White of GTR confirmed that Southern and Network Rail are looking in to the costs of electrifying the Uckfield line. Doesn’t mean it will happen though! However there does appear to be a positive story at present.

Yes but he did qualify subject to approvals

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps he should tell the boss that! As Steve White of GTR confirmed that Southern and Network Rail are looking in to the costs of electrifying the Uckfield line. Doesn’t mean it will happen though! However there does appear to be a positive story at present.

To be fair, it's entirely possible that both are correct, in that GTR have looked into it and decided it isn't worth it. I suspect that no firm decision either way has yet been made, as it requires NR and the DfT as well as GTR to agree, and the DfT have been rather busy of late with a certain document...

 

[Minstral25]

To be fair, it's entirely possible that both are correct, in that GTR have looked into it and decided it isn't worth it. I suspect that no firm decision either way has yet been made, as it requires NR and the DfT as well as GTR to agree, and the DfT have been rather busy of late with a certain document...

DfT will be paying for it (or GBR) either way ORR won't report on viability of third rail extensions until 2022, so no quick updates likely unless Shapps is out with his marker pen again

 

[Bald Rick]

To be fair, it's entirely possible that both are correct, in that GTR have looked into it and decided it isn't worth it. I suspect that no firm decision either way has yet been made, as it requires NR and the DfT as well as GTR to agree, and the DfT have been rather busy of late with a certain document...

GTRs involvement at this stage will be relatively limited; they don’t have to agree anything. Albeit it would be more difficult if they were fundamentally opposed to it.

 

[Energy]

GTRs involvement at this stage will be relatively limited; they don’t have to agree anything. Albeit it would be more difficult if they were fundamentally opposed to it.

I doubt GTR would say no to electrification anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

I doubt GTR would say no to electrification anyway.

It wouldn’t surprise me if there are a few people at Selhurst who quite enjoy playing with Diesel engines, but they will be in a minority!

 

[Stephen Lee]

Uckfield Line to be electrified

www.uckfieldfm.co.uk

Came across this article in the local news today. Can anyone shed any light?

If it goes ahead, I guess EMR will get their Class 171s after all!

Maybe XC will get extra 170s for service expansion, as there are plans that the Welsh 170s will move to EMR in stages.

 

[zwk500]

Maybe XC will get extra 170s for service expansion, as there are plans that the Welsh 170s will move to EMR in stages.

Maybe, but that would require electrification to go ahead. There's been no word since March...