Speculation on alternative traction covering the grounding of Class 80x fleet

[ABB125]

Reported elsewhere that the c2c sets need a software update (at least the PIS would need altering) and pantograph heads changing.

Why would the pantograph heads need changing?

 

[Apedlar12]

Why would the pantograph heads need changing?

The current ones they have are not GWML compatible from what I have heard.

 

[ABB125]

The current ones they have are not GWML compatible from what I have heard.

Surely a pantograph head is a pantograph head is a pantograph head, and a copper wire is a copper wire etc?

(Yes, I appreciate it's a bit more complicated than that, but what's different about the GWML wiring compared to c2c?)

 

[Grumpy Git]

Surely a pantograph head is a pantograph head is a pantograph head, and a copper wire is a copper wire etc?

(Yes, I appreciate it's a bit more complicated than that, but what's different about the GWML wiring compared to c2c?)

Broad-gauge.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why would the pantograph heads need changing?

For 110mph operation. Not all pan heads are passed out for operation above 100mph. c2c don’t need the more expensive high speed pan heads usually on their trains!

 

[RobertsN]

Surely a pantograph head is a pantograph head is a pantograph head, and a copper wire is a copper wire etc?

(Yes, I appreciate it's a bit more complicated than that, but what's different about the GWML wiring compared to c2c?)

I speak without knowing the details. However, as you probably know, the "copper wire" zig-zags so as to distribute contact away from the centre of the panto head (and to ease panto wear).

It might be that tighter radius curves require wider pantos. I don't know enough about curvature on c2c vis-a-vis GW metals. Just think this might be a possible explanation.

Mods, please delete if inapproriate.

Edit:
I believe @HamworthyGoods gave a better explanations as to why. Apologies.

 

[popeter45]

Surely a pantograph head is a pantograph head is a pantograph head, and a copper wire is a copper wire etc?

(Yes, I appreciate it's a bit more complicated than that, but what's different about the GWML wiring compared to c2c?)

the LTS was electrified quite early on so maybe it had diffrent specs on stuff like line swap and tension that would nessesitate a diffrent panto or at least new panto's when moving to a newer spec'd line to ensure even ware across the head?

 

[ABB125]

Broad-gauge.

For 110mph operation. Not all pan heads are passed out for operation above 100mph. c2c doesn’t need the more expensive high spreed pan heads usually on their trains!

I didn't think of that, that's probably it then!

I speak without knowing the details. However, as you probably know, the "copper wire" zig-zags so as to distribute contact away from the centre of the panto head (and ease panto wear).

It might be that tighter radius curves require wider pantos. I don't know enough about curvature on c2c vis-a-vis GW metals. Just think this might be a possible explanation.

Mods, please delete if inapproriate.

the LTS was electrified quite early on so maybe it had diffrent specs on stuff like line swap and tension that would nessesitate a diffrent panto or at least new panto's when moving to a newer spec'd line?

As suggested by @HamworthyGoods, it's probably due to top speed.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Interesting to see this in the Telegraph tonight, though not sure how reliable their source is?

British Rail-era InterCity 125 trains to return after mass cancellations

An additional point in that report:

A spokesman for GWR said: “We have continued to work on all possible options to boost train capacity for customers.” Although the operator had no immediate plans to introduce InterCity 125 locomotives alongside the carriages, “we have ruled nothing out”, the spokesman added.

Back when the HSTs were first introduced and the PCs were found to be prone to major coolant leaks a regular sight on the GWML was at least one set of HST trailers with appropriate match vehicles/generator vans being hauled by any available Class 47. Could we be about to see a 2020s version of this arrangement? A commenter elsewhere has suggested that creating suitable generator equipment is not a simple task but with the issue seemingly likely to continue for a year or so, during which time we will surely see a gradual increase in passenger demand, could that still be a possibility? Does any of the 1970s kit still exist for possible re-use?

 

[RobShipway]

An additional point in that report:

Back when the HSTs were first introduced and the PCs were found to be prone to major coolant leaks a regular sight on the GWML was at least one set of HST trailers with appropriate match vehicles/generator vans being hauled by any available Class 47. Could we be about to see a 2020s version of this arrangement? A commenter elsewhere has suggested that creating suitable generator equipment is not a simple task but with the issue seemingly likely to continue for a year or so, during which time we will surely see a gradual increase in passenger demand, could that still be a possibility? Does any of the 1970s kit still exist for possible re-use?

I did speculate earlier in the thread that the HST trailers could be pulled by a class 57, aka 2020s class 47. The LSL was brought down with a Pullman coach included. I noticed that the class 37 disappeared off without said coach! It maybe me, but could that Pullman coach be a generator van?

 

[43096]

It maybe me, but could that Pullman coach be a generator van?

Even if it is a generator van, as far as I know there are no available generator vans configured to supply 415V three phase for HST stock and you need something at the other end as a coupling adapter. Besides, there are surplus HST power cars that could be used.

 

[35B]

That generally affects me up north as I am led to believe that’s the sets we use, hopefully it’ll improve in the next week or so!

Surely if LNER still has the bi-mode Intercity ie 125 or closest too, they could return in place of Azuma?

HSTs were handed back to the lease company in December 2019, and went into storage. Some spent a while with EMR, which ends tomorrow, others are either still in store or have been scrapped.

Given the trouble EMR had making the ex LNER sets work after transfer, they aren’t a short term answer even if there weren’t training and competency issues.

As the LNER services beyond Edinburgh are an overlay to Scotrail services, it’s logical for LNER to limit themselves to their core network in these circumstances.

 

[sloaneesq]

Been over 6 months so all drivers would require a refresher at the very least although most would no doubt have them removed from their route cards.

There's a lot of talk about drivers needing to sign to drive hired in trains.

Is there a "wet hire" market that exists with adequate route knowledge, etc?

 

[dk1]

There's a lot of talk about drivers needing to sign to drive hired in trains.

Is there a "wet hire" market that exists with adequate route knowledge, etc?

Not with TOCs afaik.

 

[py_megapixel]

Introduces a lot of operational complexity at Reading; although it was a suggestion that was seriously raised by the control team over the weekend; as was hiring Turbos (and drivers, as ours won’t touch them) from Chiltern for LTV work.

Turbos may be a no-go, but I recall that pre-IEP, Great Western used to lease a 158 from what was then SWT to cover one of the Swindon-Cheltenham diagrams. I wonder if a similar arrangement could occur now to provide some extra stock? (i.e. entirely 158s on the Swindon-Cheltenham, releasing some Turbos to go further west)

 

[RPI]

Turbos may be a no-go, but I recall that pre-IEP, Great Western used to lease a 158 from what was then SWT to cover one of the Swindon-Cheltenham diagrams. I wonder if a similar arrangement could occur now to provide some extra stock? (i.e. entirely 158s on the Swindon-Cheltenham, releasing some Turbos to go further west)

The only issue I can see with that SWR are seeing an increase in passenger numbers due to the current situation and are due to return to an hourly Exeter Waterloo service from next week

 

[fgwrich]

Unfortunately it’s behind a paywall (and I’m not a telegraph subscriber), but this has just appeared in my google notifications. Would anyone be able to see what the article details?

British Rail-era InterCity 125 trains to return after mass cancellations​

Cost to taxpayers to keep services running during Covid has ballooned to £11bn, government figures reveal.
Rail bosses are poised to bring back InterCity 125 carriages from the 1980s to limit the fallout from mass cancellations after faulty Hitachi trains were taken out of service. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ing-back-british-rail-era-carriages-mass/amp/

 

[Wuffle]

Unfortunately it’s behind a paywall (and I’m not a telegraph subscriber), but this has just appeared in my google notifications. Would anyone be able to see what the article details?

British Rail-era InterCity 125 trains to return after mass cancellations

From the website

Cost to taxpayers to keep services running during Covid has ballooned to £11bn, government figures reveal

Rail bosses are poised to bring back InterCity 125 carriages from the 1980s to limit the fallout from mass cancellations after faulty Hitachi trains were taken out of service.
Great Western Railway is considering bringing in additional British Rail-era carriages as part of emergency measures to keep passengers moving.
Other operators are supporting GWR, which runs express services between London, Wales and the west and has been hardest hit by the crisis.
Trenitalia, which runs c2c and is owned by the Italian government, has loaned GWR three trains. Cross Country ran 28 trains across the south west to help out GWR.
Separately, Government figures released on Wednesday revealed that the taxpayer subsidy to keep train services running across England had ballooned to more than £11bn - some £1bn more than previously disclosed.
National rail operators received £7.4bn and Boris Johnson handed Transport for London a bailout of £3.8bn. The Government’s spending watchdog will grill officials on Whitehall rail spending during the pandemic on Thursday.
The history of InterCity 125s can be traced back to the 1960s, when engineers designed diesel trains that could run at 125 mph.
Repeated delays meant that the trains did not come into service until the mid-1970s, but quickly became popular among rail enthusiasts.
A spokesman for GWR said: “We have continued to work on all possible options to boost train capacity for customers.”
Although the operator had no immediate plans to introduce InterCity 125 locomotives alongside the carriages, “we have ruled nothing out”, the spokesman added.
Hitachi said: “Our investigations have given us a thorough understanding of the issue and we are making progress with our partners to return trains to service safely.”
LNER’s Azumi trains have also been hit. It will bring back the 125's successor, the 225, into service this week.
A spokesman said: “Once trains have been checked, they are being reintroduced back into service as soon as possible.”

 

[Tw99]

Telegraph report doesn't make much sense does it... HST carriages are not much use without the locos !

The 387 run down to Parkway seems to have gone well. Timing looks very close to what some 800 services achieve.

Realtime Trains - 3Z77 1010 Reading to Reading Depot Entrance A

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Nunners]

From the website

I'm not sure I would trust anything in there, especially as they can't even spell Azuma correctly!

 

[FGW_DID]

Why would the pantograph heads need changing?

The C2C 387s have HSP MK1 heads fitted, GWR have HSP MK2 heads fitted so the MK2 are being fitted. (Don’t know the technicalities behind it)
Also the Pantograph over height settings will need adjusting to accommodate the higher OLE over the level crossing at Newbury.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Spot on they have got it wrong

Maybe someone in PR should get an engineer to review their press releases?

 

[ABB125]

I'm not sure I would trust anything in there, especially as they can't even spell Azuma correctly!

At least it's not "Azooma"!

 

[ABB125]

The C2C 387s have HSP MK1 heads fitted, GWR have HSP MK2 heads fitted so the MK2 are being fitted. (Don’t know the technicalities behind it)
Also the Pantograph over height settings will need adjusting to accommodate the higher OLE over the level crossing at Newbury.

Ok, thanks.

 

[kez19]

HSTs were handed back to the lease company in December 2019, and went into storage. Some spent a while with EMR, which ends tomorrow, others are either still in store or have been scrapped.

Given the trouble EMR had making the ex LNER sets work after transfer, they aren’t a short term answer even if there weren’t training and competency issues.

As the LNER services beyond Edinburgh are an overlay to Scotrail services, it’s logical for LNER to limit themselves to their core network in these circumstances.

Whilst I understand the issue but it still a kick in the teeth for us regardless, I understand we have Scotrail services to Edinburgh which are frequent to Edinburgh, but pending for me in my situation in a few weeks time, I hope I ain’t left high and dry? As I have already have reservations for the trains to then call it last minute cancellation/rebook it’s going to be a nightmare for me hence why I would hope at least the LNER Intercity bio-modes would temporarily replace the Azuma for us

So solution for me will be either Scotrail from Dundee let’s me on to get connection at Edinburgh or I get the coach LNER provide, then hoping to get the train originally or trying to find a way down? My train originally is 4pm so I’ll either have to find a backup plan to work this out plus I’ll probably be spending more money than I was originally as it was advanced tickets to get me there? If LNER can run the services as close to normal from Edinburgh fine I’ll be happy just apart from chucking myself off a platform to then find where my train would be departing (include returning)

 

[73128]

Unfortunately it’s behind a paywall (and I’m not a telegraph subscriber), but this has just appeared in my google notifications. Would anyone be able to see what the article details?

British Rail-era InterCity 125 trains to return after mass cancellations

Train bosses poised to bring back British Rail-era InterCity 125 carriages after mass cancellations

Cost to taxpayers to keep services running during Covid has ballooned to £11bn, Government figures reveal

By Oliver Gill 12 May 2021 • 7:08pm

Rail bosses are poised to bring back InterCity 125 carriages from the 1980s to limit the fallout from mass cancellations after faulty Hitachi trains were taken out of service. Great Western Railway is considering bringing in additional British Rail-era carriages as part of emergency measures to keep passengers moving. Other operators are supporting GWR, which runs express services between London, Wales and the west and has been hardest hit by the crisis.

Trenitalia, which runs c2c and is owned by the Italian government, has loaned GWR three trains. Cross Country ran 28 trains across the south west to help out GWR. Separately, Government figures released on Wednesday revealed that the taxpayer subsidy to keep train services running across England had ballooned to more than £11bn - some £1bn more than previously disclosed.

National rail operators received £7.4bn and Boris Johnson handed Transport for London a bailout of £3.8bn. The Government’s spending watchdog will grill officials on Whitehall rail spending during the pandemic on Thursday : 15 sec

The history of InterCity 125s can be traced back to the 1960s, when engineers designed diesel trains that could run at 125 mph. Repeated delays meant that the trains did not come into service until the mid-1970s, but quickly became popular among rail enthusiasts. A spokesman for GWR said: “We have continued to work on all possible options to boost train capacity for customers.” Although the operator had no immediate plans to introduce InterCity 125 locomotives alongside the carriages, “we have ruled nothing out”, the spokesman added.

Hitachi said: “Our investigations have given us a thorough understanding of the issue and we are making progress with our partners to return trains to service safely.” LNER’s Azumi trains have also been hit. It will bring back 125 successor, the 225, into service this week. A spokesman said: “Once trains have been checked, they are being reintroduced back into service as soon as possible.”

 

[Pokelet]

Railway Gazette has published a comprehensive update on the 80x (and 385) situation.
It appears that a medium/long-term repair programme is envisaged for the entire fleets (80x and 385) which is likely to take until the end of 2022.
The programme will need specialist people and equipment, and a location for the work has still to be found.
Two 80x (800 026 and 802 205) are to be guinea pigs for establishing the best repair policy, which is still not defined.

For contingency, GWR is looking at using ex-EMR HST sets with their own power cars (for ATP), more 387s and a 67/Mk2 rake.
The DfT is said to be keen for TPE to activate Mk5 rakes so that 3x802 can be loaned to GWR (without ATP).

Class 80x recovery plan takes shape | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International

If they are looking at using EMR rakes with GWR ATP power cars then would these be the Castles? If so then why not take the EMR power cars for the Castle rakes? Then there is no loss of service in the west country?

 

[dciuk]

Train bosses poised to bring back British Rail-era InterCity 125 carriages after mass cancellations

By Oliver Gill 12 May 2021 • 7:08pm

Trenitalia, which runs c2c and is owned by the Italian government, has loaned GWR three trains. Cross Country ran 28 trains across the south west to help out GWR. Separately, Government figures released on Wednesday revealed that the taxpayer subsidy to keep train services running across England had ballooned to more than £11bn - some £1bn more than previously disclosed.

This looks like they have 31 replacement trains when I assume the 28 Cross Country trains were actually 28 services, where as the 3 c2c trains were 3 units which each could run multiple services each day. In the end did all 3 c2c units make it over to GWR or did it reduce to 2?

 

[cf111]

Zero

Edit:- sorry I read that as “How Many” not “Would Many”.

No, Paddington lapsed their HST competency by summer 2019; Reading haven’t had it for 10+ years.

Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth are your options really for Castle Knowledge and Paddington Route knowledge.

But the castle fleet is already flat out covering its own work + some additionals in the West Country. Running to London is going to “cost” a lot of sets, and therefore cause a lot of cancellations.

It requires changes; but the West Country isn’t cut off. Pewsey remains the only GWR station completely unserved by some form of alternative rail services.

Thank you for the clarity. GWRland isn't my patch so I wasn't sure what the situation with Reading staff was re. HSTs.

 

[swt_passenger]

This looks like they have 31 replacement trains when I assume the 28 Cross Country trains were actually 28 services, where as the 3 c2c trains were 3 units which each could run multiple services each day. In the end did all 3 c2c units make it over to GWR or did it reduce to 2?

3 units, 387301/02/06 were reported in another thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/speculation-on-alternative-traction-covering-the-grounding-of-class-80x-fleet.217232/page-6#post-5130928

It seems from that discussion they were split on arrival leaving only two outside…