Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[Grumpy Git]

Assuming the cracks are ONLY on the lifting/jacking points, do we know if it is the lifting that is causing the problem or some unforeseen vibration/harmonics when the trains are in use?

 

[Failed Unit]

The BBC news website are saying that the trains are being reintroduced https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57100278. However, LNER is running a reduced service and GWR say that disruption is likely to continue for some time.

It makes sense, the LNER service is reduced now anyway because of Covid and the Kings Cross engineering work, so they have more slack in their fleet anyway. The big questions is considering they have had 0x 9 car Bi Modes if they will get trains back to the edges again. GWR will clearly still have a lot of trains that need attention so watch out for lots of 5 car trains (which from my limited experience was no different to before the problem) - Never managed to go on a 9 or 2x5 car train on GWR but played squash on a 5 car lots.

 

[35B]

I thought intercity acted similar? As when they were operating up here it did the same thing, ie diesel to Haymarket switched to electric onwards then in reverse?

No. BR, GNER, NXEC, East Coast, VTEC and LNER all followed the same pattern after electrification of the ECML. IC225 electrics (class 91 + MK4) worked most of the services, but some IC125s were kept to work trains that went beyond the wires, and were diesel powered the whole way from King's Cross. They never ran electric to Edinburgh, and then diesel further north in the way that the few bi-mode Azumas can.

As for the impact on the journey you've got booked, once LNER announce their revised plans you should get in touch with them (Customer Services, not Twitter) to ask what you should do for the journey you've got booked. Precisely what rights you have will depend a little on how you've booked, but they should try to help you to stick to as much of your planned itinerary as possible. I suggest the ticekting sub-forum is a better place to ask if you've more questions.

 

[AdamWW]

There's a IET Depot in Swansea, almost within sight of the station. Contractually I believe (not that it matters with so few trains!) that GWR have to run Swansea-London, and their Cardiff-Londons are extras.

My recollection is that when FGW took over from the original management buyout, the government permitted it so long as they doubled the weekly frequency between Cardiff/Bristol and London. I may remember wrong, and maybe that has nothing to do with what they are required to run now.

But would the DfT have committed to pay for decades for a fleet of trains based on a service pattern which there is no obligation to provide?

There's a IET Depot in Swansea, almost within sight of the station. Contractually I believe (not that it matters with so few trains!) that GWR have to run Swansea-London, and their Cardiff-Londons are extras.

My recollection is that when FGW took over from the original management buyout, the government permitted it so long as they doubled the weekly frequency between Cardiff/Bristol and London. I may remember wrong, and maybe that has nothing to do with what they are required to run now.

But would the DfT have committed to pay for decades for a fleet of trains based on a service pattern which there is no obligation to provide?

Engineer taping up an easyJet engine cowl - from Internet Flight Community but as it's been round the Internet a million times who knows who took it?

To be fair it's "speed tape" which is £100+ a roll!

Probably £1 for the tape and the rest is the paperwork...

 

[millemille]

The cracked yaw damper brackets on the bolsters from last month seems to have slipped under the radar....

 

[XAM2175]

Only because it CAN be £100+ a roll.

Or maybe it's because speed tape is significantly more expensive to make than ordinary gaffer's tape? And also because "a roll" can be an infinitely-variable volume of material?

Reading from the data sheet for 3M 425 speed tape, which appears to be a commonly-used type, it becomes apparent that it's actually an adhesive aluminium foil rather than "tape", and that it's flame-resistant, very good at preventing transmission of moisture, and rated use at temperatures between -54° and 149°C.

 

[35B]

My recollection is that when FGW took over from the original management buyout, the government permitted it so long as they doubled the weekly frequency between Cardiff/Bristol and London. I may remember wrong, and maybe that has nothing to do with what they are required to run now.

But would the DfT have committed to pay for decades for a fleet of trains based on a service pattern which there is no obligation to provide?

The GW franchise has changed a couple of times since FGW took over, and so have the service specifications.

As for why DfT have signed up to pay for a fleet for decades, there you have a good question. Very simplistically, DfT have chosen to do a deal based on paying per use over 27.5 years for a number of traisn which has been modelled to be necessary to provide the service that DfT have specified, and they have negotiated a price with Hitachi for doing so. DfT have had to estimate what number of trains will be needed, and Hitachi have had to estimate how well they can keep them in service for that time, and the price reflects the calculations they've each done.

Whether DfT's estimates are much cop can be judged by the way that other operators have negotiated cheaper deals for basically the same trains, and without the same level of lock-in.

 

[Dan G]

Did any Class 91s and Mk4s get brought back early to LNER this week? I know that was mooted.

 

[reddragon]

Engineer taping up an easyJet engine cowl - from Internet Flight Community but as it's been round the Internet a million times who knows who took it?

To be fair it's "speed tape" which is £100+ a roll!

Ideal then!!!

 

[Grumpy Git]

Or maybe it's because speed tape is significantly more expensive to make than ordinary gaffer's tape? And also because "a roll" can be an infinitely-variable volume of material?

Reading from the data sheet for 3M 425 speed tape, which appears to be a commonly-used type, it becomes apparent that it's actually an adhesive aluminium foil rather than "tape", and that it's flame-resistant, very good at preventing transmission of moisture, and rated use at temperatures between -54° and 149°C.

I have a roll. If a piece accidentally sticks to itself, there is no way its coming apart again without tearing the aluminium.

It's about £55 +VAT for a 180' x 2" roll (£1 a meter).

 

[800001]

No. I don’t think they could even hire XC sets anymore as the drivers don’t sign anymore. I guess if we see any bi-modes tomorrow we might get an

Looking at the announcement today - still nothing to get excited about if you are on LNER. (On a Bi-mode route)

The timetable for tomorrow loaded. Nothing much that needs to be a Bi-Mode (the Leeds - Aberdeen service which is terminating at Edinburgh) - All other Bi-Mode trains cancelled.

See what Saturday brings, but at the very minimum nothing from North of Edinburgh as the stock didn't make it there on Friday evening (unless of course they already have trains in Aberdeen and / or Inverness)

Both 1E11 and 1E15 will both start form Aberdeen on Saturday, while 1E13 will start Edinburgh vice Inverness.
All northbound bimode services into Scotland will run From Saturday.

Did any Class 91s and Mk4s get brought back early to LNER this week? I know that was mooted.

1 came out on tuesday, 2nd one comes out tomorrow.

 

[paul1609]

I think gaffer tape might not withstand high speed airflow!

Engineer taping up an easyJet engine cowl - from Internet Flight Community but as it's been round the Internet a million times who knows who took it?

To be fair it's "speed tape" which is £100+ a roll!

Duct tape was used for balancing/ repairing helicopter rotors from the Vietnam war onwards

 

[Steve Harris]

Or maybe it's because speed tape is significantly more expensive to make than ordinary gaffer's tape? And also because "a roll" can be an infinitely-variable volume of material?

Reading from the data sheet for 3M 425 speed tape, which appears to be a commonly-used type, it becomes apparent that it's actually an adhesive aluminium foil rather than "tape", and that it's flame-resistant, very good at preventing transmission of moisture, and rated use at temperatures between -54° and 149°C.

Indeed. And sticks like s**t to a blanket !!

Which as a maintenance engineer is a right pain in the a**e to remove when someone has used it as a bodge/repair.

 

[AdamWW]

The GW franchise has changed a couple of times since FGW took over, and so have the service specifications.

As for why DfT have signed up to pay for a fleet for decades, there you have a good question. Very simplistically, DfT have chosen to do a deal based on paying per use over 27.5 years for a number of traisn which has been modelled to be necessary to provide the service that DfT have specified, and they have negotiated a price with Hitachi for doing so. DfT have had to estimate what number of trains will be needed, and Hitachi have had to estimate how well they can keep them in service for that time, and the price reflects the calculations they've each done.

That doesn't seem compatible with the idea that the Cardiff to London trains in the pre-pandemic schedule were not a franchise requirement.

 

[Failed Unit]

Both 1E11 and 1E15 will both start form Aberdeen on Saturday, while 1E13 will start Edinburgh vice Inverness.
All northbound bimode services into Scotland will run From Saturday.


1 came out on tuesday, 2nd one comes out tomorrow.

Thank you - Hopefully onwards and upwards on Saturday and the Lincoln's will return as well (otherwise I will be in the car as the current problems has left some big gaps between Grantham and Newark ) - But on the positive it was only 1 week.

 

[hwl]

They’ve "corrected" it.View attachment 96169

Indeed they have amended it rather than correcting it fully - the lifting point symbol on drawing 1 is still in the wrong place!

 

[800001]

Thank you - Hopefully onwards and upwards on Saturday and the Lincoln's will return as well (otherwise I will be in the car as the current problems has left some big gaps between Grantham and Newark ) - But on the positive it was only 1 week.

They should also return

 

[eastdyke]

They’ve "corrected" it.View attachment 96169

Thanks for the update! Interesting that the 'lifting point plate' is placed where it is. Assuming an evenly distributed load across the 4 lift points per unit that, that places around 12 tons on the bolster during a lift. Is the plate integral to the bolster or a welded lug?

There were presumably good reasons why the lifting point plate was not central to the bolster.

 

[Steve Harris]

The cracked yaw damper brackets on the bolsters from last month seems to have slipped under the radar....

Indeed.

If I'm asuming correctly, the welds above the yaw dampers are cracking where the bolster is welded to the body and the welds are cracking at the jacking point (where the bolster is welded to the body?) If that is correct, it appears to me, that there is a force trying to twist the bolster.

As for hitachi getting a drawing wrong. It doesn't really instil confidence (in me) when they don't know the difference between a yaw damper location and a jacking point location on a drawing.

 

[TRAX]

As for hitachi getting a drawing wrong. It doesn't really instil confidence (in me) when they don't know the difference between a yaw damper location and a jacking point location on a drawing.

As long as the engineers know that…

 

[YorksLad12]

As for hitachi getting a drawing wrong. It doesn't really instil confidence (in me) when they don't know the difference between a yaw damper location and a jacking point location on a drawing.

Perhaps, but the fact that they've come up with a semi-technical explanation for the great unwashed (journos, mostly) is good. The execution is a bit off but the idea is sound, and better than shutting up shop or saying "it's technical, mate".

 

[Steve Harris]

As long as the engineers know that…

Indeed.

But if you you have a "safety issue" and then release a drawing which is factually incorrect, it doesn't really instil the feeling that everything is under control (and they know what their doing).

However, I do appreciate mistakes do get made and it was no doubt drawn up in a hurry !! (And the engineers know what they are doing, even though the drawing office don't).
But it still should of been proof read before release.

 

[edwin_m]

One Azuma, two Azumi?

If it was a Latin word, which is isn't, then the plural would be Azumae. I don't know how the Japanese language pluralises words.

Pedamus, pedatis, pedant.

 

[Steve Harris]

Perhaps, but the fact that they've come up with a semi-technical explanation for the great unwashed (journos, mostly) is good. The execution is a bit off but the idea is sound, and better than shutting up shop or saying "it's technical, mate".

Oh I agree.

 

[Ediswan]

If it was a Latin word, which is isn't, then the plural would be Azumae. I don't know how the Japanese language pluralises words.

It doesn't. Much like 'sheep' in English.

 

[Emaharg]

Did any Class 91s and Mk4s get brought back early to LNER this week? I know that was mooted.

Yes I have just seen 91110 at Peterborough on 1245 Leeds - King's Cross service.

 

[O L Leigh]

It doesn't. Much like 'sheep' in English.

Plus it isn't a noun capable of being pluralised, being as it is an archaic Japanese word meaning "East".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That doesn't seem compatible with the idea that the Cardiff to London trains in the pre-pandemic schedule were not a franchise requirement.

The IEP services to Cardiff and Swansea at the pre-Covid service frequency are part of the GWR franchise contract.
The Cardiff terminators are not "optional extras".
There is probably an option to flex the frequency a little to match traffic levels (public holidays, match days etc).
A further increase in 80x service levels across GWR was planned pre-Covid but might be under review now.
The FG GWR contract is up for review anyway in the transition from the current direct award to whatever comes next - but probably little change.

 

[OldNick]

Plus it isn't a noun capable of being pluralised, being as it is an archaic Japanese word meaning "East".

But once it's a noun applied to a train, presumably it can be when discussing multiple trains.

 

[O L Leigh]

But once it's a noun applied to a train, presumably it can be when discussing multiple trains.

As you wish. I was merely expanding on the point about the word's origins in the Japanese language.