Great British Railways: Replaces Network Rail & more changes - updates only (non-speculative)

[Gag Halfrunt]

I always thought that the EU policy to separate out the rail infrastructure owner and the train operator was EU policy - which was then jumped on by the Major government as the catalyst for splitting up BR.

Sweden separated infrastructure and operations before UK railway privatisation, so the Swedish example might have influenced thinking in the European Commission.

 

[TUC]

Just for 2 years though???

Well that's good. Then after two years all the restrictive practices can be blown up and the public might start getting value for money.

Buses in London are run by private companies, but the regulated model under direct control of local politicians is completely different to the deregulated model outside London. To the extent that an awful lot of people don't realise or care who actually operates their bus route, it's a London

Agreed, I think the simplistic nationalisation versus privatisation argument is far too narrow

Buses in London are run by private companies, but the regulated model under direct control of local politicians is completely different to the deregulated model outside London. To the extent that an awful lot of people don't realise or care who actually operates their bus route, it's a London bus.

Agreed, I think the simplistic nationalisation versus privatisation argument is far too narrow

Buses in London are run by private companies, but the regulated model under direct control of local politicians is completely different to the deregulated model outside London. To the extent that an awful lot of people don't realise or care who actually operates their bus route, it's a London bus.

If a London Overground service is disrupted, people will be moaning about London Overground, TfL, maybe the Mayor, but rarely Arriva the operator. It's TfL's job to monitor Arriva's performance and take action if necessary

And look what a drain on public money for the rest of the country TfL is. Not a good model to follow.

 

[stuu]

And look what a drain on public money for the rest of the country TfL is. Not a good model to follow.

You mean "Look how much taxation flows out of London to support the rest of the UK" surely.... TfL, ante bellum, was self-sufficient in day-to-day running, so not sure what you have in mind?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I presume that this proposed reorganisation, with direct state control of what passenger rail services are run and ticket prices, has only been possible as the UK is no longer a member of the EU, given their policy on rail competition.

I don't think that's true at all.
There's nothing in the White Paper that couldn't have been done within the EU.
There will still be some distinction between wheel and rail, even it only in accounting terms (which was all the EU required).
DB, SNCF and the rest are all integrated businesses but with separate infrastructure and operator arms.
Ticketing arrangements were never an EU matter.
If anything it takes us closer to the typical EU model, with concessions rather than franchises.
Concessions will be competed for, as before.
But directly-run operations, like OLR's Northern and LNER currently, are obviously not a permanent plan.
OLR will still exist for "rogue" or failing concessions.

 

[Mat17]

And deregulated bus services are (from my personal experience) a total disaster. I don't know if it universally so, or just in my area. A few profitable routes are fought over to the death, the rest were pruned and pruned and pruned. "Well no one uses this service." True but when the Stockport-Stalybridge parliamentary services looks regular in comparison, who can blame people.

 

[Furryanimal]

I find myself wondering how Transport for Wales fits into this.Metro and all that....
I would love the off peak return to make a comeback on my line into Cardiff!

 

[Applepie356]

If the tendering process is anything like how London bus routes are tendered, then it could potentially be a race to the bottom for the workers and even passengers as the company attempts to cut costs to make an attractive bid.

 

[Wolfie]

And look what a drain on public money for the rest of the country TfL is. Not a good model to follow.

TfL a drain on the rest of the country? You are having a laugh. Until the pandemic it was receiving, unlike other similar regional bodies, no operating subsidies from HMG at all. Tell you what, how about London completely pays for TfL and no taxes from London go to the rest of the country. See how long things last..... Oh, and the current half-assed TfL funding model was agreed by the then-Mayor, despite warnings, one B Johnson.

You mean "Look how much taxation flows out of London to support the rest of the UK" surely.... TfL, ante bellum, was self-sufficient in day-to-day running, so not sure what you have in mind?

Absolutely. If you want to talk basket cases why hasn't Northern been closed down lock, stock and....

If the tendering process is anything like how London bus routes are tendered, then it could potentially be a race to the bottom for the workers and even passengers as the company attempts to cut costs to make an attractive bid.

That, sadly, is highly likely. The rumblings over Network Rail staff T&Cs are only the start.

 

[43096]

Yes

What’s the relevance of a road haulage/logistics company to the UK’s rail strategy?

 

[Giugiaro]

I feel a little uncomfortable about Network Rail's brief being taken by a body - in this case GBR - with a particularly large amount of other responsibilities, because it makes track maintenance a smaller proportion of their duties. Going from Railtrack to Network Rail was a huge step up, and I have this nagging worry that standards are going to slip.

It really depends. Portugal had CP split into Comboios de Portugal and REFER, and the two wouldn't stop bickering over pretty much everything, from mismatched strategies to constantly blaming each other for damages and repairs.
Unfortunately the ones really in charge (the Government) have been more than incompetent at dealing with rail for 80 years already.

 

[Dr Hoo]

DB Schenker...?

[I note that the OP has confirmed this.]
Am I missing something? How is one of the Freight Operating Companies (actually DB Cargo UK for some while and not the same as DB Schenker) relevant to a discussion about cuts in infrastructure staff within Network Rail?

(EDIT: I see that 43096 beat me to it.)

 

[Sleepy]

Shapps mentions the ironing board seats !! Think he needs to look at DfT a bit closer ?

 

[stratford]

How does the tendering process work? If a company decides to bid for running a service that then becomes unsustainable (e.g. they low-ball so government payments no longer meet their costs) what difference is this to the franchise model where this was the cause of most failures? Surely this solves nothing?

Fully owned government operators seems to be the ideal that solves this.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Something in the report to make cyclists happy....

Bringing a bike on board makes a train journey even more convenient, yet even as cycling has grown in popularity, the railways have reduced space available for bikes on trains. Great British Railways will reverse that, increasing space on existing trains wherever practically possible, including on popular leisure routes. It will also make it easier to reserve bike spaces online and without reservation on quieter trains. All future train feets will need to include more bike spaces relevant to the markets served. Operators will continue to restrict bikes on peak-hour commuter trains, where the space is needed for passengers.

(... easier to reserve bike spaces online and without reservation ... Haha! Needed a bit more proof-reading methinks, although I think it's obvious what the intention is)

 

[Grumpy Git]

It must have nearly choked Shapps to not be able to blame a previous (Labour) administration for the failure of privatisation. In fact he even goes to the trouble to say it isn't being re-nationalised, (which is factually incorrect in my opinion).

https://twitter.com/i/status/1395272785837051905

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Note a review into ‘ironing board seating’ and also to look into fewer ‘repetitious and annoying’ pre recorded announcements.

You see, people do read this forum

Yay!

Great British Railways will introduce new design and ride standards that will make sure all new trains are more comfortable than their predecessors. Subject to negotiations with suppliers and business case approval, Great British Railways will bring forward the normal replacement cycles on existing trains equipped with "ironing-board"-like seats, beginning with long-distance trains, in order to make the seats signifcantly more comfortable, or to replace and eventually remove them altogether.

(Although I worry slightly about whether spending money just to make seats more comfortable will pass business case approval, since it's not likely to bring much change in revenue)

 

[coppercapped]

Ideology gets in the way of everything, not just how to run a Railway. In fact it's the reason British Rail was privatised originally!

If privatisation was the result of ideology, so then was the nationalisation which preceded it.

Sidney Webb wrote what became Clause IV of the Labour Party’s constitution in 1917.

To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

In 1942 the annual Labour Party Conference, with an eye on its constitution and Clause IV, passed a resolution urging the Government to coordinate road, rail and canal transport under national ownership - with the aim of aiding the war effort. This idea of national ownership remained and was adopted by Labour in December 1944 and appeared in the 1945 election manifesto as “There are basic industries ripe and over-ripe for public ownership and management in the direct service of the nation.” These industries were the railways, coal, road transport, docks, harbours and canals, the Bank of England, civil aviation, external telecommunications, health, electricity, gas and steel - about a third of the British economy at the time.

So - just drop this ‘ideology’ thing. Two can play at that game.

 

[Mikey C]

If the tendering process is anything like how London bus routes are tendered, then it could potentially be a race to the bottom for the workers and even passengers as the company attempts to cut costs to make an attractive bid.

Hardly

Indeed the London tendered bus market is pretty mature, with strict rules about the vehicles used and even wage levels

 

[matt_world2004]

And look what a drain on public money for the rest of the country TfL is. Not a good model to follow.

How is tfl a drain on public money for the rest of the country before the pandemic it was recieving no central government funding and even now it's funding is less than the revenue support provided to bus and rail operators

 

[DarloRich]

And look what a drain on public money for the rest of the country TfL is. Not a good model to follow.

I think, perhaps, listening to voices other than the PM and his chums might help here. This view is not accurate.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Something else that looks hopeful (my bold):

The government has announced almost £600 million to start work on electrifying the Trans-Pennine route between Leeds and Manchester, design work to extend electrifcation to Market Harborough is underway and the government will announce further electrifcation projects in England will be announced shortly

(They definitely need a better proof-reader though )

 

[matt_world2004]

Hardly

Indeed the London tendered bus market is pretty mature, with strict rules about the vehicles used and even wage levels

Although bus driver working conditions in London are pretty poor. Often shifts are right to the limit on what is permitted under working time legislation. Stand time is often impractical 7 minutes stand time for a toilet 200+ meters away. And they are trying to introduce remote sign on which is probably not legal under driver's hours legislation

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It must have nearly choked Shapps to not be able to blame a previous (Labour) administration for the failure of privatisation. In fact he even goes to the trouble to say it isn't being re-nationalised, (which is factually incorrect in my opinion).

https://twitter.com/i/status/1395272785837051905

He also says that governments of both hues failed to address the long-term issues for the railway.
It's a sort of self-blame, at least up to Grayling (not himself, obviously!).

 

[Mikey C]

He also says that governments of both hues failed to address the long-term issues for the railway.
It's a sort of self-blame, at least up to Grayling (not himself, obviously!).

I've always thought it a bit silly to blame governments for decisions made 20-30 years earlier by the same party anyway. The individuals around now are different and the circumstances they operate in different as well.

 

[Bigman]

Something in the report to make cyclists happy....



(... easier to reserve bike spaces online and without reservation ... Haha! Needed a bit more proof-reading methinks, although I think it's obvious what the intention is)

So that's all 153's going for conversion to cycle carriages then like they did for Scotrail .

 

[WesternLancer]

I've always thought it a bit silly to blame governments for decisions made 20-30 years earlier by the same party anyway. The individuals around now are different and the circumstances they operate in different as well.

Today's ministers / MPs often yesterdays Special Advisors / consultants...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Note a review into ‘ironing board seating’ and also to look into fewer ‘repetitious and annoying’ pre recorded announcements.

You see, people do read this forum

That could of course mean removing actual ironing boards and replacing them with Fainsa Sophias!

I would like to see a refurb of the GWR 80x with a nicer colour scheme, though, it really is utterly drab.

 

[coppercapped]

EU rail policy is to a large extent based on the privatisation of British Rail in the 1990s, although TOCs can be state-owned.

Are you referring to the EU's policy at the time of privatisation or its subsequent evolution?

The EU Directive 91/440 which required that separate accounts be held for infrastructure and operations was made in 1991 and so pre-dates the Railways Act 1993 by a couple of years.

The EU's has always tried to promote competition in the goods and services that are supplied to consumers in the member states across a range of industries. Rail is no exception, the EU considers that the reason that rail's market share is so small (taken across the EU as a whole) is because the suppliers of rail transport are monopolies. Subsequent Directives are attempting to lever open these monopolies to let in some alternative suppliers with greater or lesser success.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The EU's has always tried to promote competition in the goods and services that are supplied to consumers in the member states across a range of industries. Rail is no exception, the EU considers that the reason that rail's market share is so small (taken across the EU as a whole) is because the suppliers of rail transport are monopolies. Subsequent Directives are attempting to lever open these monopolies to let in some alternative suppliers with greater or lesser success.

I think I'd suggest that rather than rail being fundamentally broken it's due to years of car-driven planning policies and similar. The EU railways aren't perfect, but most of them are decent in their own way, DB and NS probably being the closest in concept to ours.

The odd bit of open access on the side e.g. Italo, Hull Trains etc doesn't really do any harm, but overall fragmentation very much does.

Competition does, to be fair to them, work well in most lines of business - but not public transport, where networks are stronger than individual routes.

 

[fgwrich]

Something else that looks hopeful (my bold):



(They definitely need a better proof-reader though )

Speaking of, Potential further 3rd Rail Infill schemes may be on the cards - at long last!

Roger Ford
@Captain_Deltic
All hail @DriverPotter !! "The industry is currently considering options for the extension of third-rail electrification to pockets that depend on diesel operation, so that electric trains can be used on more journeys". Gospel according to Williams-Shapps

https://twitter.com/Captain_Deltic