Load factors in 2019 were rather high. And they still needed £100 subsidy per passenger, plus Serco lost a similar amount.
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Affordable tickets for the Caledonian Sleeper?
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Load factors in 2019 were rather high. And they still needed £100 subsidy per passenger, plus Serco lost a similar amount.
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alistairlees
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Not really. Though they were better than previous years.
The service is fundamentally extremely inefficient. I don't know what proportion of that is down to economic conditions, technical inadequacies, industrial relations etc and what proportion is down to the poor business model selection.
As it stands with the enormous losses being split between Serco and public funds it's worth continuing but once Serco manage to cut their losses, the service is now so expensive and of so little economic or social benefit that it becomes harder and harder to see what the justification for the large annual public subsidy for it really is. The Sleeper is great for enthusiasts and people with staff discounts, but we do have to wonder if it's a sensible use of public and farepayers' money.
The last time I travelled on the Caledonian Sleeper I was going to Fort William. I stayed in the Best Western at Crianlarich and boarded there. That was far cheaper and a much better night of sleep was had. The value of my fare from Crianlarich to Fort William was also returned to me because the arrival there was a little over an hour late.
As it stands with the enormous losses being split between Serco and public funds it's worth continuing but once Serco manage to cut their losses, the service is now so expensive and of so little economic or social benefit that it becomes harder and harder to see what the justification for the large annual public subsidy for it really is. The Sleeper is great for enthusiasts and people with staff discounts, but we do have to wonder if it's a sensible use of public and farepayers' money.
The last time I travelled on the Caledonian Sleeper I was going to Fort William. I stayed in the Best Western at Crianlarich and boarded there. That was far cheaper and a much better night of sleep was had. The value of my fare from Crianlarich to Fort William was also returned to me because the arrival there was a little over an hour late.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd be inclined to keep it going until HS2, then revisit. HS2 will probably render the Lowlander pointless, and the Aberdeen is getting ever quieter, so that could potentially leave you with a tourist oriented 2-portion service to FW and Inverness only, with spare coaches to go to GWR for the Riviera as the Mk3s will be really old by then. As the coaches would be due a mid-life refurb by that point, the idea of couchettes could also be revisited if the market it's aimed at was to change.
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All sleepers* are fundamentally inefficient. It’s fairly simple - specialist (ie expensive) rolling stock, rolling stock that can only be used once a day, that has a maximum capacity roughly 25-30% of a seated coach, and needs extra staff to operate and service it every day.
* trains that consist predominantly of beds. Trains that consist predominantly of seats / couchettes, with a couple of sleeping cars attached have better economics. But we don’t do that.
Oh absolutely. But have the best decisions been made with the resources that are available here, even if you were to specify that there must be something close to a train of 'predominantly beds'? And more importantly is the massive subsidy earning any proportionate environmental or social benefits?
Not for a CS product, but the OP could use a 26-30 railcard, if they buy one when entitled, to book themselves onto the Sleeper with a Glasgow to London Off Peak Return. That's £102.30 at the moment, which at slightly more than £50 each way doesn't represent too bad value. Of course if you were going to be doing that you may find that an Avanti service suits your needs better anyway, but it would be valid on most of those.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Is that correct? I thought they didn't accept any 26-30 discounted ticket, whether dedicated or Any Permitted?
I don't think they can actually do that can they? They're able to make restrictions on products they've set up, but they can't refuse to accept a Glasgow to London Off Peak Return. Nor can they amend the conditions of that ticket unilaterally to prevent a 26-30 discount from being offered on it.
In any case the text on their website appears to support this idea:
Railcard Discounts | Caledonian Sleeper
View our railcard discounts for travel on Caledonian Sleeper, allowing you flexible travel between Scotland and London.
www.sleeper.scot
It's in the same manner that someone could buy an All Line Rover with a 26-30 discount and use that at a valid time.
“26-30 Railcard – We do not offer discounts on any rooms or seated products” from the page you linked.I don't think they can actually do that can they? They're able to make restrictions on products they've set up, but they can't refuse to accept a Glasgow to London Off Peak Return. Nor can they amend the conditions of that ticket unilaterally to prevent a 26-30 discount from being offered on it.
In any case the text on their website appears to support this idea:
Railcard Discounts | Caledonian Sleeper
View our railcard discounts for travel on Caledonian Sleeper, allowing you flexible travel between Scotland and London.
It's in the same manner that someone could buy an All Line Rover with a 26-30 discount and use that at a valid time.
It isn’t immediately clear whether that just means their own advance seat fares or applies in general, though I suppose someone could contact them and find out one way or another.
alistairlees
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Their own products.
Sleepy
Established Member
The 26-30 railcard conditions state tickets with route Cal Sleeper can't be discounted so walk up Any Permitted route tickets are valid.
I don't know anything about the particular case with the Caledonian Sleeper, but more generally aren't there examples of TOCs that don't accept e.g. Gold card or Groupsave discounts, running certain routes in parallel with other TOCs, so that some walk-up tickets that are generally valid on any TOC become invalid on that particular TOC if the discount is applied? So *in principle* the Caledonian Sleeper could similarly refuse to participate in the 26-30 railcard scheme and refuse any such discounted ticket? [Edit: To be clear, I am not claiming that they are doing so, I am simply discussing whether they could do so if they wanted.]
The examples I'm thinking of, although I've only heard of these second hand and not experienced them in person, are:
* The Annual Gold Card Area Map contains Euston to Milton Keynes Central which is served by both Avanti West Coast and London Northwestern Railway but only indicates the latter as participating in the scheme. Searching a single for tomorrow yields the base fare £20.00 for an Off-Peak Day Single (route Any Permitted) but adding a Gold Card discount brings the fare down to £13.15 only on the LNR trains, so presumably such a discounted ticket would not be valid on AWC. (Note that the £20.00 fare is undercut by a £19.50 AWC only fare on the AWC trains, so you may have to go into advanced details to find the £20.00 fare offered.)
* St Pancras to Luton is served by both Thameslink and East Midlands Railway, and only the former is listed as participating in GroupSave. Searching a single for tomorrow yields the base fare £17.10 for an Off-Peak Day Single (route ".") valid on any train, but searching three people (which would be 3 x £17.10 = £51.30 without discount) brings the fare down to £33.75 (roughly 33% discount) on Thameslink while the price remains the same for EMR trains. So again when a discount is applied the ticket loses validity on one TOC. (On EMR trains there's also an advance ticket undercutting the single price.)
Edit: As for the topic of this thread, searching London Euston to Glasgow Central with a 26-30 railcard on the National Rail journey planner yields an itinerary on the Caledonian Sleeper for a £71.60 Off-Peak Single, which is the discounted price (original £108.50).
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alistairlees
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No, this is incorrect; I've provided the answer above. Fares that are set by Caledonian Sleeper cannot be discounted with the 26-30 railcard. Fares that are not set by CS can be discounted with the 26-30 railcard. This does not reduce their validity - they can still be used on CS. Of course, a supplement would need to be purchased.
Sleepy
Established Member
EMR retail groupsave tickets different to most TOC - as specific ticket types - Groupsave Day 5 /4/ 3 and Groupsave kids for £1 (instead of discounting like a railcard)
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75% off...Join a TOC
Very possibly given what was on offer! But the record is far from good. Especially if we look at the technical reliability and industrial relations position. It would be interesting to see how CS compared with other trains of predominantly beds around Europe.
I am also interested in this exact topic. After some research it seems the current most affordable tickets are £100 glasgow-london, and £170 london-glasgow, both needing at least 5 weeks in advance to get those prices. There's also a 10-trip carnet for £165 per trip.
My use case is similar: working in Glasgow and wanting to visit family/friends on the occasional weekend. I have zero interest in the "hotel saving" as I wouldn't be using one. I would also happily forego any on-board meals.
At those prices, it makes more sense for me to take a flight one way (from £25), and a day train the other (from £70), which would also give a decent length weekend.
It seems Caledonian aren't interested in non-tourist travellers. A shame, as it would be far better for the environment to take the sleeper.
My use case is similar: working in Glasgow and wanting to visit family/friends on the occasional weekend. I have zero interest in the "hotel saving" as I wouldn't be using one. I would also happily forego any on-board meals.
At those prices, it makes more sense for me to take a flight one way (from £25), and a day train the other (from £70), which would also give a decent length weekend.
It seems Caledonian aren't interested in non-tourist travellers. A shame, as it would be far better for the environment to take the sleeper.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you ignore the "because it's running anyway" thing as both the day trains and flights are too, is it really? With occupancy of about 10 per coach, I'm not sure it is. That said the Lowlander is electric and I'm sure I read on here that all the railway's electricity supply is nuclear, so it might be purely on that basis (but the Highlanders possibly not).
Bear in mind that any CO2 emissions from a flight are even more damaging because of the altitude at which they are emitted, so even if the Lowlander was 50g/km and a flight was 75g/km, the reality is that you should probably also x2-x3 the aeroplane emissions.
I would happily pay a premium for low-CO2 travel, but up to a limit. £270 is just too high compared to the alternatives.
I would happily pay a premium for low-CO2 travel, but up to a limit. £270 is just too high compared to the alternatives.
Haywain
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In which case book a seat - they're available from £68 one way.
Haywain
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So you do want something a bit like a hotel experience? You can’t have it both ways.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What the OP was saying is that they can't factor the cost of a hotel night into the price when making their value judgement as they will receive free accommodation at the destination. Whereas someone who was going for the weekend staying in a hotel but used the Sleeper overnight on the Friday could consider what they'd pay for a hotel for the Friday that they aren't paying.
They have no real interest in any travellers who aren't paying £100 or more.
The simple reality is that for someone like tornado, Cal Sleeper just can't meet their needs.
221129
Established Member
Then get the day train...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It almost certainly would be, yes. Unfortunately the Off Peaks from Euston to Glasgow bar break of journey on the outward. But you could split, wouldn't be an issue for the way back if you chose somewhere all trains call e.g. Carlisle or Preston, or you used Advances.
If you pick Carlisle I know there's an Ibis just across from the station, I've stayed there.
How much are you looking to save? London to Wolverhampton Super Off Peak Single is £16 with West Midlands Trains. There are lots of options from there onwards at sensible prices if you're flexible about when you are going. If you're coming back and can use West Midlands Trains a Super Off Peak Return to Stoke-on-Trent is £30.50, or to Manchester with WMR/LNR and TfW is £35.00. All of these places have budget hotels.
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