Affordable tickets for the Caledonian Sleeper?

[Bald Rick]

A shame, as it would be far better for the environment to take the sleeper.

it would be even better to get the day train - around 3-4 times better than the sleeper.

And depending where you are, city centre to city centre by day train is about the same time as flying, and frankly a lot more comfortable.

 

[paul1609]

Bear in mind that any CO2 emissions from a flight are even more damaging because of the altitude at which they are emitted, so even if the Lowlander was 50g/km and a flight was 75g/km, the reality is that you should probably also x2-x3 the aeroplane emissions.

I would happily pay a premium for low-CO2 travel, but up to a limit. £270 is just too high compared to the alternatives.

But neither mode factors in the carbon emissions of its infrastructure. Im betting that the carbon emissions of 400 miles of railway are a whole lot higher than 2 airports.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But neither mode factors in the carbon emissions of its infrastructure. Im betting that the carbon emissions of 400 miles of railway are a whole lot higher than 2 airports.

Electrification (or hydrogen-powering) of flights is another risk hovering in the wings for rail. It's quite likely that a non-fossil-fuel-powered domestic flight would knock a Voyager into a cocked hat for emissions. How's that electrification doing, again?

 

[lachlan]

They have no real interest in any travellers who aren't paying £100 or more.

The simple reality is that for someone like tornado, Cal Sleeper just can't meet their needs.

The sleeper beds could be more affordable if they allowed sharing with a stranger, and/or had smaller pod-type beds which they could fit more of into a single carriage. Beds are disproportionately expensive for the single traveller, and in my one experience the seated coach was freezing, too bright and not very comfortable.

They could certainly try to be more accommodating for single budget travellers but unfortunately they're not interested

 

[alistairlees]

The trains are busy at the moment. Very busy. Something must be right.

 

[AY1975]

Not for a CS product, but the OP could use a 26-30 railcard, if they buy one when entitled, to book themselves onto the Sleeper with a Glasgow to London Off Peak Return. That's £102.30 at the moment, which at slightly more than £50 each way doesn't represent too bad value. Of course if you were going to be doing that you may find that an Avanti service suits your needs better anyway, but it would be valid on most of those.

Similarly, the Railcard Discounts section on the CS website says Family & Friends and Two Together Railcard holders receive a discount on seated tickets but not on berths, but again this presumably only applies to fares set by CS and there is nothing to stop a family with a F&F Railcard or two people who hold a 2T Railcard from using a normal discounted ticket, such as an Off-Peak Single or Return, and paying the berth supplement (LNER no longer offers returns, so that wouldn't be an option for London-Edinburgh). The CS website also mentions that special family tickets are available.

I believe that LNER has withdrawn Any Permitted Route tickets in favour of route-specific tickets, so I'm not sure if an Anytime or Off-Peak Single whose price is set by LNER would also be valid on CS.

 

[Yew]

The sleeper beds could be more affordable if they allowed sharing with a stranger, and/or had smaller pod-type beds which they could fit more of into a single carriage. Beds are disproportionately expensive for the single traveller, and in my one experience the seated coach was freezing, too bright and not very comfortable.

They could certainly try to be more accommodating for single budget travellers but unfortunately they're not interested

Indeed, I've suggested a pod-type beds a few times; and despite some similar designs on the continent, It's sad not to see them.

I'd also be interested of seeing how a business/first class airline pods would stack up compared to the current sleeper seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, I've suggested a pod-type beds a few times; and despite some similar designs on the continent, It's sad not to see them.

I'd also be interested of seeing how a business/first class airline pods would stack up compared to the current sleeper seats.

They were proposed, but weren't viable because of the reversals - head to the direction of travel lying down would be dangerous in a collision as it'd snap your neck, not true of an upright seat. That also kills off longitudinal beds as you get elsewhere which would be the best way to get a "hostel style" option into UK loading gauge.

One thing worth looking at would be alternating height single rooms, i.e. one side has a raised bed, the other side a lower bed, with the actual cabin being sort of alternating L shaped. This would allow more single-use rooms to be packed in, as that is what most passengers want. Probably too late for CS now, though.

 

[Yew]

They were proposed, but weren't viable because of the reversals - head to the direction of travel lying down would be dangerous in a collision as it'd snap your neck, not true of an upright seat. That also kills off longitudinal beds as you get elsewhere which would be the best way to get a "hostel style" option into UK loading gauge.

I think that it would still allow transverse pods, however I think the limiting factor would be suitable ladders within our loading gauge. I could see how reversing that could cause problems with airline first class seats, I suppose something could be arranged, either with a transverse layout, but then you're probably nor much more space efficient than your suggestion below.

One thing worth looking at would be alternating height single rooms, i.e. one side has a raised bed, the other side a lower bed, with the actual cabin being sort of alternating L shaped. This would allow more single-use rooms to be packed in, as that is what most passengers want. Probably too late for CS now, though.

That does seem like a good intermediary solution, I'd daresay once you include bathroom and sink facilities for the airline first class seats, you could probably achieve a similar, or even higher density

 

[Bletchleyite]

That does seem like a good intermediary solution, I'd daresay once you include bathroom and sink facilities for the airline first class seats, you could probably achieve a similar, or even higher density

I think it'd give you a vaguely similar capacity to if the seating was 1+1, thinking about it - it'd be a fairly narrow bed with a narrow aisle.

 

[andylikestrain]

The trains are busy at the moment. Very busy. Something must be right.

I was going to ask if many berths are left empty and if so could a bargain berth type approach be brought back, but it seems not.

 

[tornado]

I found a somewhat workable solution which makes the 9 hours of travel for a daytime return more bearable, and allows for a decent 2/3 day weekend.

Outbound
Glasgow-London - Thurs/Fri evening advance singles are readily available for ~ £35. Best to do it in one go.

Return
London-Lancaster - late Sun evening - £48. 2 hr 30.
Ibis Budget Lancaster - from £25, 7 mins from train station.
Lancaster-Glasgow Mon morning - £19 - 8.30am-10.30am.

Total return price £125 (reasonable in my view)

Would be interesting to see how this compares in comfort to taking the Sleeper, or taking two direct day trains. I guess I'll have to try it!

Perhaps after the winter timetable change it might be possible to pick up an early morning TPE from Lancaster too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Return
London-Lancaster - late Sun evening - £48. 2 hr 30.
Ibis Budget Lancaster - from £25, 7 mins from train station.
Lancaster-Glasgow Mon morning - £19 - 8.30am-10.30am.

Total return price £125 (reasonable in my view)

Given that the last train to Lancaster carries on to Glasgow for a shade after midnight, and that you can get advances on that for £69, i.e. a return for £20 less, I think most passengers would do that and get home to bed for the night.

 

[Kite159]

Given that the last train to Lancaster carries on to Glasgow for a shade after midnight, and that you can get advances on that for £69, i.e. a return for £20 less, I think most passengers would do that and get home to bed for the night.

Depending where the person lives, a late arrival into Glasgow will mostly mean using a taxi (or paying to park in a Glasgow car park which could wipe out any savings) (not sure if they have many overnight bus routes).

Although you could probably pick up a reasonable priced hotel in the city centre, especially for a Sunday night.

 

[Bald Rick]

Depending where the person lives, a late arrival into Glasgow will mostly mean using a taxi (or paying to park in a Glasgow car park which could wipe out any savings) (not sure if they have many overnight bus routes).

There’s a pretty decent night bus network in Glasgow.

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/uploads/maps/Glasgow%20Nightbus%20map.pdf

But if you didn’t want to use that, or walk, or couldn’t be picked up, or didn’t want to get a taxi, then you’d just travel at different times make different arrangements, ie travel an hour or two earlier.

My point is that for those people who want to be on the last ‘day’ train towards Scotland from London, and are ultimately heading for Glasgow, the proportion that would happily pay more money to break that journey somewhere north of Preston for a hotel stay (that has no other purpose than to delay arrival to mid morning the following day) will be vanishingly small.

 

[Haywain]

I found a somewhat workable solution which makes the 9 hours of travel for a daytime return more bearable, and allows for a decent 2/3 day weekend.

Outbound
Glasgow-London - Thurs/Fri evening advance singles are readily available for ~ £35. Best to do it in one go.

Return
London-Lancaster - late Sun evening - £48. 2 hr 30.
Ibis Budget Lancaster - from £25, 7 mins from train station.
Lancaster-Glasgow Mon morning - £19 - 8.30am-10.30am.

Total return price £125 (reasonable in my view)

Would be interesting to see how this compares in comfort to taking the Sleeper, or taking two direct day trains. I guess I'll have to try it!

Perhaps after the winter timetable change it might be possible to pick up an early morning TPE from Lancaster too.

I’m still baffled that you don’t want to do the hotel thing but you’re planning on using a hotel.

 

[Sm5]

Similarly, the Railcard Discounts section on the CS website says Family & Friends and Two Together Railcard holders receive a discount on seated tickets but not on berths, but again this presumably only applies to fares set by CS and there is nothing to stop a family with a F&F Railcard or two people who hold a 2T Railcard from using a normal discounted ticket, such as an Off-Peak Single or Return, and paying the berth supplement (LNER no longer offers returns, so that wouldn't be an option for London-Edinburgh). The CS website also mentions that special family tickets are available.

I believe that LNER has withdrawn Any Permitted Route tickets in favour of route-specific tickets, so I'm not sure if an Anytime or Off-Peak Single whose price is set by LNER would also be valid on CS.

I just bought a £170 berth for an Adult and a Child for Inverness to London, so some discounting is available.

 

[tornado]

My logic is that personally I find train journeys over around 3 hours ish to be fatiguing. Especially as door-to-door it would be 6 hours. Not much point in slogging it all the way to Glasgow in one shot, only to be too tired to work properly the next day.

I also think you would sleep better in a budget hotel than the CS bunks. Seems to be quite a few complaints of a rough ride on the MK5 coaches.

 

[Bald Rick]

My logic is that personally I find train journeys over around 3 hours ish to be fatiguing. Especially as door-to-door it would be 6 hours. Not much point in slogging it all the way to Glasgow in one shot, only to be too tired to work properly the next day.

Fair enough - but in which case the sleeper wouldn’t be any good for you either even if it was dirt cheap.

 

[tornado]

It's a shame the 4 hr 10 service only calling at Preston doesn't exist any more.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's a shame the 4 hr 10 service only calling at Preston doesn't exist any more.

I agree, but it was poorly patronised.

 

[ScotTrains]

I was going to ask if many berths are left empty and if so could a bargain berth type approach be brought back, but it seems not.

Doesn't seem that long ago when we could easily get £19 bargain berths. These included Virgin Trains lounge access too, providing you with showers and breakfast on arrival into London.

I guess if people are willing to pay significantly higher prices then there is no reason for CS to offer bargain berths.

 

[JonathanH]

Doesn't seem that long ago when we could easily get £19 bargain berths. These included Virgin Trains lounge access too, providing you with showers and breakfast on arrival into London.

I guess if people are willing to pay significantly higher prices then there is no reason for CS to offer bargain berths.

Six and a half years ago? It similarly isn't that long ago I could stay in a Travelodge for £10 a night but the company had to enter into a Company Voluntary Arrangement not long after. The fact is that people are willing to pay higher prices for things (to an extent).

It also isn't so long ago that the seats cost £25 and £33 on a regular basis but again that doesn't appear to be a viable business model.

 

[BluePenguin]

75% off...Join a TOC

Easier said than done though isn't it? Otherwise we would all get part time jobs on the railway to subsidise our travels lol

 

[AY1975]

I just bought a £170 berth for an Adult and a Child for Inverness to London, so some discounting is available.

Was that with a Family & Friends Railcard? And what kind of ticket did you buy? Was it a CS all-inclusive berth ticket or an ordinary walk-on single or return with a berth supplement?

 

[Sm5]

Was that with a Family & Friends Railcard? And what kind of ticket did you buy? Was it a CS all-inclusive berth ticket or an ordinary walk-on single or return with a berth supplement?

Yes adult/child with F&F.
when it reverted with the fare, It gave me a price that was “adult with free child”
this was a classic berth, Inverness to London.

 

[alistairlees]

Yes adult/child with F&F.
when it reverted with the fare, It gave me a price that was “adult with free child”
this was a classic berth, Inverness to London.

There is no Family and Friends railcard discount on Caledonian Sleeper rooms.

However, if one adult is travelling with one child, then they can travel for the same price as one adult travelling alone in the same room could.

 

[tornado]

Hopefully this is not too much of an aside, but if LUMO can get some better pathings in the new year, then Glasgow-Edinburgh (45 mins), break for a bite in Edinburgh, then Edinburgh-London (4 hrs), could be very tempting. Affordable pricing, time competitive, seems like comfortable trains, and better London connection for those of us going further on Thameslink.

 

[Bald Rick]

The paths that Lumo use are going to be largely unchanged until the ECML recast, whenever that is. But not next year.

 

[Ianno87]

Hopefully this is not too much of an aside, but if LUMO can get some better pathings in the new year, then Glasgow-Edinburgh (45 mins), break for a bite in Edinburgh, then Edinburgh-London (4 hrs), could be very tempting. Affordable pricing, time competitive, seems like comfortable trains, and better London connection for those of us going further on Thameslink.

If the E&G 15 minute interval service isn't coming back, does make me wonder whether they could get into Queen Street...

Though suddenly their 5 car trains won't cut it any more. If they can easily fill them from Edinburgh, carrying on to Glasgow doesn't make commercial sense.