Why do we have to press a button to open train doors in the UK and European countries?

[flythetube]

On the Thameslink 700s outside of the core, is it possible to program them to open when released by the driver?

I wondered this last summer when COVID was rife whether the door buttons - a high touch point - could be temporarily eliminated by either reprogramming the train to open on release everywhere, or whether the driver could manually do it everywhere if desired?

I had similar Co-Vid concerns with the Croydon Tramlink, as whilst in the main, drivers were operating in all doors open mode, one or two drivers late at night would switch doors into release doors but passenger operated to open mode, thus increasing number of touch points to be touched by a number of customers.

Tfl Customer Services responded thus:-

29 January

Dear Mr xxxx

Thank you for your feedback form of 20 January the cleanliness and operation of the doors on our London Trams network.

First and foremost, I hope you and your other loved ones are and continue to remain safe during this time. I do also appreciate the time you've taken to get in contact with us and highlight your concerns.
At the start of this pandemic, our drivers were instructed to use the door open button rather than the door release and this instruction still applies. So I've reported this directly to a Duty Manager who has reposted the Operational Notice ensuring that all doors are opened at tram stops and terminus. They've also reminded our drivers to use only the door open facility even late at night when there are fewer customers around.

In regards to cleanliness, trams that are in operation along the network are being cleaned and sanitised every night when they reach the depot. We also carry out a deep sanitation monthly by an external professional company.

Thanks again for contacting us. If there is anything else we can help you with, please reply to this email. Alternatively, you can call us on 0343 222 1234 and we'll be happy to help you.

Kind regards

Axxxx Bxxxxx
Customer Service Adviser
Transport for London Customer Services

 

[choochoochoo]

Not automatically opening doors on release also makes dwell times when nobody gets on of off shorter.

Doors are already closed, interlock takes a fraction of a second and you're off. If the doors are open, it feels like at least 2-3 seconds from open to interlock.

I had similar Co-Vid concerns with the Croydon Tramlink, as whilst in the main, drivers were operating in all doors open mode, one or two drivers late at night would switch doors into release doors but passenger operated to open mode, thus increasing number of touch points to be touched by a number of customers.

Tfl Customer Services responded thus:-

29 January

Dear Mr xxxx

Thank you for your feedback form of 20 January the cleanliness and operation of the doors on our London Trams network.

First and foremost, I hope you and your other loved ones are and continue to remain safe during this time. I do also appreciate the time you've taken to get in contact with us and highlight your concerns.
At the start of this pandemic, our drivers were instructed to use the door open button rather than the door release and this instruction still applies. So I've reported this directly to a Duty Manager who has reposted the Operational Notice ensuring that all doors are opened at tram stops and terminus. They've also reminded our drivers to use only the door open facility even late at night when there are fewer customers around.

In regards to cleanliness, trams that are in operation along the network are being cleaned and sanitised every night when they reach the depot. We also carry out a deep sanitation monthly by an external professional company.

Thanks again for contacting us. If there is anything else we can help you with, please reply to this email. Alternatively, you can call us on 0343 222 1234 and we'll be happy to help you.

Kind regards

Axxxx Bxxxxx
Customer Service Adviser
Transport for London Customer Services

The touchpoint argument is becoming moot it believe.

I believe research is showing there is very little transmission from touch points compared to transmission by inhalation.

I personally think, why can't people be more responsible and wash their hands before putting things in or near their mouth and face after touching shared surfaces? Why has it taken a pandemic to get people to this level of hygeine ?

 

[Darandio]

The touchpoint argument is becoming moot it believe.

I believe research is showing there is very little transmission from touch points compared to transmission by inhalation.

I personally think, why can't people be more responsible and wash their hands before putting things in or near their mouth and face after touching shared surfaces? Why has it taken a pandemic to get people to this level of hygeine ?

Tests were done for months on various TOC's as well as TfL and the underground on multiple touch points including buttons, toilet flush buttons, grab handles etc etc. No traces were found.

 

[miklcct]

This seems to answer one of the questions that you asked in your original post:



In other words, why not automatically open all the doors? Because they're not all used at every station.

I think there is some misunderstanding here. In these European cities most doors are pressed open at every station, only under rare circumstances less than half of the doors are opened.

 

[Darandio]

I think there is some misunderstanding here. In these European cities most doors are pressed open at every station, only under rare circumstances less than half of the doors are opened.

Why do you keep banging on about cities, thousands of services a day call at minor stations where very few people board or alight. Unless the focal question of the thread is actually 'Why do we have to press a button to open train doors in UK cities?'

 

[AlterEgo]

I think there is some misunderstanding here. In these European cities most doors are pressed open at every station, only under rare circumstances less than half of the doors are opened.

You really do need to visit the rest of the country and come back and report on your findings. Please go to the Cumbrian Coast in January on a 150 on an all-stopper and let us know how it goes!

Why do you keep banging on about cities, thousands of services a day call at minor stations where very few people board or alight. Unless the focal question of the thread is actually 'Why do we have to press a button to open train doors in UK cities?'

Well quite.

 

[The exile]

I have also travelled to multiple European cities including Helsinki, Stockholm, Prague, Kaliningrad, Riga, etc. I can say that in most of the cities where there is a railway system (including tram, underground, suburban rail), it's strange that less than half of the doors are pressed open at most of the stations in the city.

Although I have visited only one of the European cities you mention, my highly unscientific observations of many other European metropolises suggests that, while your statement may be correct in the core of the network and during the “core” of the day, it is by no means universal and I can remember many occasions when I have been the only person boarding or alighting at stations in capital cities. To take it one stage further, it is not unknown for large capital cities to have request stops!

 

[Mojo]

Tests were done for months on various TOC's as well as TfL and the underground on multiple touch points including buttons, toilet flush buttons, grab handles etc etc. No traces were found.

Even disregarding that, it was found several months ago that the risk of fomite / surface transmission of the Sars-CoV-2 virus is so low and unlikely that is not worth bothering about.

 

[flythetube]

Even disregarding that, it was found several months ago that the risk of fomite / surface transmission of the Sars-CoV-2 virus is so low and unlikely that is not worth bothering about.

Weren’t tests also done on McDonalds Touch Screen Ordering Screens and wasn‘t there concerns with those.

Are not McDonalds customer demographics similar to public transport customer demographics?

Are their fingers filthier when using McDonalds Screens than when using Public Transport hand rails?

Noted recently on a train from Rochester to London Victoria late evening, a Train Presentation member of cleaning staff going along the carriage spraying and cleaning the seat ‘Ears’, so hats off to South Eastern.

 

[Undiscovered]

Weren’t tests also done on McDonalds Touch Screen Ordering Screens and wasn‘t there concerns with those.

Are not McDonalds customer demographics similar to public transport customer demographics?

Are their fingers filthier when using McDonalds Screens than when using Public Transport hand rails?

Yes, fecal matter was found on those touch screens.

So, to eliminate touch points, all doors open at every station. Which would be a benefit to journey time as you could do away with expensive and cumbersome air-con equipment for each carriage.

After all, why make a carriage comfortable to be in for a 3hr journey when all the hot/cool air escapes at each stop. (yes you could have vestibule into carriage doors, but that's still a touch point, so...)

The weight savings would be enough to shorten journey times by a few minutes, great for PPM, but not for passenger comfort.

 

[Jonny]

In nearly all European countries I have been to, I need to press a button to open the train door. In some countries the same need to be done to open the bus door as well. This practice does not exist in Asia, including Commonwealth countries, where all doors are centrally operated by the driver.

What's the point having us to press a button to open train doors? I can only see it's bad because there is an additional layer of complexity, the risk of button failure, and it significantly lengthens the dwell time at stations. I think London Underground has already abolished this practice, but what's the point of introducing it at the first place?

If all doors are centrally controlled, the dwell time at stations can be compressed to about 20 seconds as long as there are enough doors for many people to board / alight at the same time.

It is not completely unknown that doors do open without a button in the UK, after all it is standard practice on the London Underground for all doors to open automatically without passengers having to press buttons.

 

[colchesterken]

The class 306 had door opening buttons in 1949, I think the fell out of use in later years

 

[coppercapped]

In nearly all European countries I have been to, I need to press a button to open the train door. In some countries the same need to be done to open the bus door as well. This practice does not exist in Asia, including Commonwealth countries, where all doors are centrally operated by the driver.

What's the point having us to press a button to open train doors? I can only see it's bad because there is an additional layer of complexity, the risk of button failure,

If you're worried about that, then maybe the answer is to for every passenger to have a smartphone app whereby one touches the screen for the door nearest the phone to open...

No button wear and tear, what's not to like?

and it significantly lengthens the dwell time at stations. I think London Underground has already abolished this practice, but what's the point of introducing it at the first place?

If all doors are centrally controlled, the dwell time at stations can be compressed to about 20 seconds as long as there are enough doors for many people to board / alight at the same time.

 

[Neo9320]

I’ve been waiting for a dragons den idea to pop up on here…(jokes, no abuse please all!)

If you're worried about that, then maybe the answer is to for every passenger to have a smartphone app whereby one touches the screen for the door nearest the phone to open...

No button wear and tear, what's not to like?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're worried about that, then maybe the answer is to for every passenger to have a smartphone app whereby one touches the screen for the door nearest the phone to open...

No button wear and tear, what's not to like?

Apparently SBB guards now give the departure signal using a phone app, believe it or not!

 

[Neo9320]

Apparently SBB guards now give the departure signal using a phone app, believe it or not!

Damn! Too late! Lol

 

[6Gman]

There are no passenger door open/close buttons on the 507/508 units used by Merseyrail, although this practice will end when the new stock comes into use which does feature a button (although when they were first built, they did have them which were later removed).

Regardless, I might be wrong in saying that also when the new 777s begin, doors will still be centrally opened/closed only when operating in underground stations on the network.

I was told (and this may or may not be true, or simply anti-Merseyside prejudice) that the passenger operation ceased because people expected the doors to open automatically. Can anyone recall what happened with the previous units (502 and 503?) ?

And my wife, who from time to time 'enjoys' the 21-stop South Parkway-Southport journey - in winter - will be very pleased if the above is true with the 777s.

 

[PupCuff]

It's also advantageous (an unintended benefit, perhaps) in the unlikely event of a conductor or driver opening the doors on the wrong side, or otherwise outside the limits of the platform, folk are less likely to fall out if they can see through the door there isn't a platform there and not open it, rather than the door just flying open unexpectedly.

 

[PeterC]

The class 306 had door opening buttons in 1949, I think the fell out of use in later years

Certainly out of use by 1962 when I started commuting to school by train. I do remember the buttons being used once on a unit that was being used for parcels duty before Christmas, presumably to stop people jumping on.

Somebody above mentioned buttons on the Underground. They were initially provided on the D78s and I remember a drunk on the platform at Aldgate East hammering on the unopened door. I suspect that the occupants of that car were relieved that he didn't work out how to press the button.

 

[Wolfie]

Please just think of slam door stock. The southern had plenty of them.

Or indeed Mk3s...

These are not in Asia though - I have never seen buttons in Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing, Singapore.

So that is China (including HK) plus Singapore... Hardly representative of all of Asia!

 

[ExRes]

I remember very well the 313s on Clapham to Willesden in the mid/late 90s, when they had 'one open all open' doors, everyone sitting on the train on a freezing winter day, wind howling into the coaches along with some nice rain if your luck was really in, anyone wanting that need their brains hoovering

 

[Wolfie]

I was told (and this may or may not be true, or simply anti-Merseyside prejudice) that the passenger operation ceased because people expected the doors to open automatically. Can anyone recall what happened with the previous units (502 and 503?) ?

I wouldn't be surprised. You'd be amazed at how many on the London Overground just stand there looking at the doors even when the buttons flash and sounders run. Presumably due to regular tube use....

 

[Mikey C]

I've become very dextrous with my elbows during the last year. Door buttons being one of the easier things to open without using your hands!

 

[Wolfie]

I've become very dextrous with my elbows during the last year. Door buttons being one of the easier things to open without using your hands!

A knuckle is my normal preference.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is about train door buttons, thanks

 

[Irascible]

I am not old enough to have lived since the pre-electrification era so I have little idea how we opened the train door in the past, but the practice of having any sort of passenger-operated doors never existed there.

The equivalent of National Rail back there had 3 doors per carriage (converted to 5 afterwards in order to improve passenger flow and reduce dwell time) and ran in 3/6/9/12 carriages, and the underground had 5 doors per carriage and ran in 8 carriages.

As others have said, Mk3 coaches on HSTs had passenger opened doors with handles until they weren't allowed anymore... a couple of years ago. I can also tell you for sure that even in my nearest city it's very rare for all the doors of anything but a short communter train to be open at a stop. Honestly even at London terminii I've seen trains without doors open at the furthest end while they're boarding at times.

 

[Mat17]

I've never been on a train where the doors open automatically without a button, I wasn't aware such things existed! I'd be panicking when coming to alight looking for the button.

 

[Skie]

I was told (and this may or may not be true, or simply anti-Merseyside prejudice) that the passenger operation ceased because people expected the doors to open automatically. Can anyone recall what happened with the previous units (502 and 503?) ?

And my wife, who from time to time 'enjoys' the 21-stop South Parkway-Southport journey - in winter - will be very pleased if the above is true with the 777s.

507s never had passenger door controls, and had been running for a while when the 508s were eventually released from their temporary Southern region running. The 508 door controls were disabled and covered up simply to stop there being visually identical trains operating on the same network with a mix of door controls or no door controls.

The 777s will indeed only open all doors at underground platforms and terminal stations. They also auto close after 30 seconds. Will make those long waits at Bank Hall at 6am in the winter less chilly.

 

[davews]

I notice that some Greater Anglia trains don't illuminate the buttons when they are released. There was me standing by the door patiently waiting for the light to come on...

 

[Doctor Fegg]

So that is China (including HK) plus Singapore... Hardly representative of all of Asia!

Certainly not the case that all doors open in China, too, or at least it wasn’t when I travelled around the country a few years back.