• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jonny

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,562
I am at higher than average risk yes, but not quite sufficient to meet the ‘priority vaccination’ programme, as is my wife.



The way you worded that, i.e. rather dismissively, kindof illustrates the dont-give-a-s***-for-others-concerns attitude that I’ve seen in numerous places this evening.

It may seem dismissive, but as far as I am concerned all that is happening is that you are getting served with your own standards turned back at you.

Oh, and I think you may have over-perceived your risk.

The same attitude has been around for the last 16 months but it's been a two way street. Those calling for restrictions over this time are still calling for them to continue right now and at no point have they given a s*** about how this has affected others.

Exactly. I am sick of pandering to media-driven overestimation of risk.

Good news for England.
Here in Wales our health minister has,today,threatened more lockdowns and intimated they could be used for flu!
I expect mass non-compliance on this side of the border after July 19th.
Remember your mask though.You’ll need it for when the train crosses into Wales!

Another interesting point is going to be the effect on train services that run through England and then into Wales or Scotland, especially for passengers whose journeys are entirely within England.

Also, there is a restriction in the enabling act of no requirement to be vaccinated; a continuation of restrictions beyond 19th July for England or the next review point in Wales/Scotland could be seen to be collective punishment.

Coming back to the last point, restrictions for flu would be totally over-the-top, especially as vaccines are available. I would treat those as an impingement on the prohibition of requirement to be vaccinated from the get-go.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,116
Location
UK
Another interesting point is going to be the effect on train services that run through England and then into Wales or Scotland, especially for passengers whose journeys are entirely within England.
The only example of this that I can think of, which wouldn't involve changing trains, is making a journey from stations between Hereford and Gobowen to Chester.

I wonder how unfamiliar passengers are supposed to know that Wrexham is in Wales. Perhaps the conductors will be expected to announce "Ladies and gentlemen, we have crossed into Wales. You must now wear a face covering unless exempt"...

More seriously, I think there will still be some public transport service providers - obviously airlines but probably also a few heritage railways/tour providers and possibly a few bus companies - that continue to mandate face coverings after 19 July.

It looks like Burnham and Khan's attempts to keep masks on TfGM and TfL services is likely to falter but I think some places will remain outliers.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,499
It may seem dismissive, but as far as I am concerned all that is happening is that you are getting served with your own standards turned back at you.

Oh, and I think you may have over-perceived your risk.

Please point out where I have been dismissive in any way?

Also - can you please enlighten me exactly how you’ve clearly gained access to my NHS medical records? Because I certainly haven’t provided any specific details about why I’m very definitely above average risk.

There’s a fallacy among many people that the government’s classification / choice of the ‘at risk’ groups somehow perfectly captured all the groups. They most certainly did not - the asthma groups in particular were heavily politically influenced when it became clear that the doctors’ definition would have resulted in a much larger segment of the population shielding than was politically / economically acceptable to the government, so they rewrote the guidelines to make the numbers palatable.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,616
All else aside I will be glad of the opportunity to reclaim the sunflower lanyard. It was not intended to be a mask exemption indicator and it has been stolen for that purpose. It will now take a lot of educating to get back to what it was actually intended to do.
 

AJW12

Member
Joined
20 Feb 2018
Messages
121
Location
Teddington
All else aside I will be glad of the opportunity to reclaim the sunflower lanyard. It was not intended to be a mask exemption indicator and it has been stolen for that purpose. It will now take a lot of educating to get back to what it was actually intended to do.
That would be nice - I am sympathetic to people like you that wear one for the right reasons. Whilst I’m very of the opinion that you should just mind your own business as to whether the random person you passed in Sainsbury’s is masked or not, there are a lot of people wearing one just to get the mask exemption (know of several people who ordered one online for that specific purpose) - and as a result, those people who feel it is their business to judge others for mask/no mask are approaching genuinely exempt/disabled people and making them feel uncomfortable. Hopefully you’ve not had too much hassle.
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,006
Location
London
It looks like Burnham and Khan's attempts to keep masks on TfGM and TfL services is likely to falter but I think some places will remain outliers.

I watched an interview with Burnham earlier on and I thought it was quite clear he will not attempt to have separate rules for transport in Greater Manchester. He was just expressing an opinion that he thought it was too soon to dispense with masks.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,616
That would be nice - I am sympathetic to people like you that wear one for the right reasons. Whilst I’m very of the opinion that you should just mind your own business as to whether the random person you passed in Sainsbury’s is masked or not, there are a lot of people wearing one just to get the mask exemption (know of several people who ordered one online for that specific purpose) - and as a result, those people who feel it is their business to judge others for mask/no mask are approaching genuinely exempt/disabled people and making them feel uncomfortable. Hopefully you’ve not had too much hassle.

I should have made clear - I don't wear one. I do however work as a train conductor so they're useful to me while carrying out my duties and I have a lot of sympathy for people who used them before COVID who now have them branded as simply a mask exemption lanyard without further thought.
 

Ianigsy

Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
1,112
The only example of this that I can think of, which wouldn't involve changing trains, is making a journey from stations between Hereford and Gobowen to Chester.
There’s the possibility of conflicting messages if TfW are giving out one set of instructions for travel within Wales and Avanti or GWR give another. Equally, if TfW tried to apply stricter Welsh rules for some of the services which they operate entirely within England like Shrewsbury-Crewe and Chester-Liverpool which might have no legal force. The rail industry needs to move in lockstep, basically - one thing which it would be helpful to have come out of any review would be the power for the Westminster Health Secretary to suspend the devolved assemblies’ powers over public health for perhaps 90 days at a time in a pandemic situation.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,439
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Have the RMT made any statement that would reflect their worries over the non-wearing of masks on trains where their members could be seen to be open to infection? Have that union issued any guidance concerning on-train staff wearing masks?

One of the Eagle twins in the Labour party (I never know which one they are), according to one of my neighbours who saw her on television, when she was saying she was worried over bus drivers and others being affected by non-wearing of masks. If anyone on this website saw it, can they provide a link, please.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,616
Have the RMT made any statement that would reflect their worries over the non-wearing of masks on trains where their members could be seen to be open to infection? Have that union issued any guidance concerning on-train staff wearing masks?

One of the Eagle twins in the Labour party (I never know which one they are), according to one of my neighbours who saw her on television, when she was saying she was worried over bus drivers and others being affected by non-wearing of masks. If anyone on this website saw it, can they provide a link, please.

Not that I've seen. It's basically split between those who are sick of wearing masks, and those who are sick of other people not wearing masks around them, much like the rest of society at the minute.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
7,063
Location
Taunton or Kent
The significance of today's announcement is so great that to concede to a delay would look like a spectacular u-turn and seriously undermine Johnson. Yes the confirmation announcement is still another week away, but if the data doesn't look good (supposedly) in a week's time, it won't be much different to the data today, given the surge in positive tests of late. He also said today he expected the 19th July to go ahead, so while there maybe some who try to say it's not a u-turn if a delay is made, they still can't defend his choice of language.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,116
Location
UK
Given that Johnson has (somewhat surprisingly) 'nailed his colours to the mast' with today's announcement, I think it would take a dramatic turn of events for it not to go ahead.

That said, the spectre of future restrictions has not been eliminated. It is very concerning that things like lockdowns, let alone hospitality or gathering restrictions, are still seen as a legitimate tool by so many people.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,909
Location
Yorkshire
.... I certainly haven’t provided any specific details about why I’m very definitely above average risk...
Are you able to elaborate? If you want to give a particular example, we'd need more information otherwise the example isn't constructive or useful.

If you are at heightened risk, you can choose to wear an FFP3 mask. If you do, these are effective regardless of whether or not others wear masks, so you don;'t need to worry about what other people are or aren't doing.

The same attitude has been around for the last 16 months but it's been a two way street. Those calling for restrictions over this time are still calling for them to continue right now and at no point have they given a s*** about how this has affected others.
Well said

.... its none of your business what the posters personal health situation is. ...
But why would a poster give their situation as an example but not provide enough information for the example to be useful?

No-one is "demanding" other people's personal information but it makes no sense to post something that lacks clarity and causes confusion and then refuse to provide any clarification.

Why not just choose to go shopping at less busy times? No queue, *and* quieter inside.
Because, for some people, it's about asserting authoritarianism.

When the shops were really busy that is exactly what I did, but pragmatism isn't high up the agenda for those who want to control others.
I would be a lot more comfortable with today’s announcement if they’d actually waited until most adults have had their second vaccination...

Latest reported vaccination uptake
2nd dose: 64%
Two thirds arguably does qualify as most.

And those that haven't, have mostly had one dose; many have also had natural infections and, furthermore, the vast majority will have good innate immunity.

The bloke is vaccinated. If he has any faith in vaccines he will not care whether somebody wears a scrap of cloth over their face or not. If he doesn’t, he’s an anti-vaxxer and I’m glad that he isn’t from my union - I wouldn’t have much faith in them to negotiate on my behalf if they take such a ridiculously uptight and irrational approach to life.
Again the authoritarians don't believe the vaccines are effective; there are loads of hysterical vaccine effectiveness denying uptight authoritarians who are going absolutely berserk about this. It's absolutely comical.
 
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,439
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
I have missed the actual broadcast this evening. Was anything said about the number of people who can visit family residents of care homes (my wife has been in one since 3rd March this year) and will the pre-admission to the care home still require the same type of tests that the care home staff take on a weekly basis.
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
10,679
Location
Redcar
I have missed the actual broadcast this evening. Was anything said about the number of people who can visit family residents of care homes (my wife has been in one since 3rd March this year) and will the pre-admission to the care home still require the same type of tests that the care home staff take on a weekly basis.

I saw that limits would be lifted for visitors, nothing about pre-admission though.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,273
Location
No longer here
(And once again for the record, I personally couldn't give much of a stuff what happens either way, but I'll carry on voluntarily wearing a mask for the time being as it personally doesn't bother me. That doesn't mean I'm pro-mask nervous wreck, I'm just pro-going-with-the-flow-and-not-making-fuss like 80% of the population, who tend to not be the most vocal on social media)
I suspect that "going with the flow" on July 19th would be removing one's mask, to be honest. You're right that some people will still choose to wear theirs and they won't just disappear immediately from the streets, but I think it will be a minority, certainly in urban areas and definitely where I live.

All else aside I will be glad of the opportunity to reclaim the sunflower lanyard. It was not intended to be a mask exemption indicator and it has been stolen for that purpose. It will now take a lot of educating to get back to what it was actually intended to do.
Hear hear.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,909
Location
Yorkshire
I suspect that "going with the flow" on July 19th would be removing one's mask, to be honest. You're right that some people will still choose to wear theirs and they won't just disappear immediately from the streets, but I think it will be a minority, certainly in urban areas and definitely where I live.
It'll definitely be a minority.

Those who want to actually be protected by a mask and who actually understand science, will be using an FFP3 mask, in which case they won't care what other people are (or aren't!) wearing.

The only people who will fuss over others not wearing masks are those authoritarians who don't actually have a clue about how viruses or immunity works and don't understand that FFP3 masks are vastly more effective than standard masks, which are hardly effective at all.
 

londonteacher

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2018
Messages
673
It'll definitely be a minority.

Those who want to actually be protected by a mask and who actually understand science, will be using an FFP3 mask, in which case they won't care what other people are (or aren't!) wearing.

The only people who will fuss over others not wearing masks are those authoritarians who don't actually have a clue about how viruses or immunity works and don't understand that FFP3 masks are vastly more effective than standard masks, which are hardly effective at all.
It will be a minority and in some circumstances, I will be wearing one.

I am glad that restrictions have been lifted and I will definitely not be moaning at others for not wearing one.

My reasons for continuing to wear a mask/covering are the following:
  • I will only wear one in extremely crowded places such as the Underground during rush hour if it ever returns to close to normal. Also, when walking through London past the weekly protests. 95% of the time, I will not be wearing one.
  • I will only continue to wear a mask/covering because over the last year and a half since wearing a mask I have been much healthier with very few illnesses which as a teacher makes a change! No scientific reasons as there is no proof that masks/coverings are the reason for my improved health. But, I am unable to see any other change in my life in the last year as I have been very fortunate to not have my life disrupted really.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,499
Are you able to elaborate? If you want to give a particular example, we'd need more information otherwise the example isn't constructive or useful.

No, my medical situation is personal and private. Details of my exact situation are not critical to someone being able to appreciate that not everyone is adequately protected with one vaccine dose after 19th July. Are you saying, as a forum staff member, that I’m actually required to post this information? I find that seriously inappropriate if that is the case.

If you are at heightened risk, you can choose to wear an FFP3 mask. If you do, these are effective regardless of whether or not others wear masks, so you don;'t need to worry about what other people are or aren't doing.

There is a wider risk in terms of continued prevalence of Covid in the population causing more frequent virus mutation which reduces vaccine effectiveness, and therefore wider risk to ‘at risk’ groups as a whole. Some people’s vaccination will actually be non-effective, I believe the Blood Cancer Society has today made their situation very clear.

But why would a poster give their situation as an example but not provide enough information for the example to be useful?

Because posting on a discussion forum in a manner that complies with forum rules should be acceptable? If you feel that my post didn’t reach up to your obviously high standard of ‘usefulness’ then moderate me.

I’ve refrained from posting much in this particular forum as its clearly a venue for people to air their frustrations, but that works both ways and some people (forum staff included!) should respect the fact that not everyone shares their views.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,909
Location
Yorkshire
No, my medical situation is personal and private. Details of my exact situation are not critical to someone being able to appreciate that not everyone is adequately protected with one vaccine dose after 19th July. Are you saying, as a forum staff member, that I’m actually required to post this information? I find that seriously inappropriate if that is the case.
It appears you did not read my post; here are some relevant extracts:
Are you able to elaborate? If you want to give a particular example, we'd need more information otherwise the example isn't constructive or useful.

If you are at heightened risk, you can choose to wear an FFP3 mask. If you do, these are effective regardless of whether or not others wear masks, so you don;'t need to worry about what other people are or aren't doing.
But why would a poster give their situation as an example but not provide enough information for the example to be useful?

No-one is "demanding" other people's personal information but it makes no sense to post something that lacks clarity and causes confusion and then refuse to provide any clarification.
I trust this clarifies.

There is a wider risk in terms of continued prevalence of Covid in the population....
The virus is endemic; it's here to stay. It's the fifth endemic human Coronavirus and we now have no alternative but to build up immunity to it, just as we did with the previous four Coronaviruses (except this time we can massively accelerate the process through the use of highly effective vaccines), all of which would have likely caused a pandemic when they were novel viruses introduced into an immunologically naive population.

causing more frequent virus mutation which reduces vaccine effectiveness
You clearly misunderstand how Coronaviruses work, and how we reach endemic equilibrium with these viruses. This misunderstanding is fuelling unfounded fears.
and therefore wider risk to ‘at risk’ groups as a whole. Some people’s vaccination will actually be non-effective, I believe the Blood Cancer Society has today made their situation very clear.
The proportion of people who are not able to build either an adaptive or innate immune response to Coronaviruses is clearly going to be very small; you are talking a very small number.

If your suggestion is that we should restrict our society for this reason, such a suggestion is completely irrational, disproportionate and unsustainable.

Given the virus clearly cannot be eliminated, it's nonsensical.

Because posting on a discussion forum in a manner that complies with forum rules should be acceptable? If you feel that my post didn’t reach up to your obviously high standard of ‘usefulness’ then moderate me.
I don't understand what you are saying but there is no moderation matters being discussed here; my views are my personal opinions, based on listening to extensive podcasts from experts, including virologists and immunologists. If you wish to disagree, that is your choice, but you can't expect not to be challenged when you give an example that lacks clarity.

I’ve refrained from posting much in this particular forum as its clearly a venue for people to air their frustrations, but that works both ways and some people (forum staff included!) should respect the fact that not everyone shares their views.
I respect that others have different views, but I am going to challenge your views. If you think someone is being disrespectful you must not reply to the post and instead report it, rather than discussed on any forum thread.

For those not aware, what is an FFP3 mask and what protection does this afford?
A mask that is actually designed to keep virus particles out (standard masks aren't); the results of a study carried out in hospitals was in the news a few days ago:

Wearing a high grade mask known as an FFP3 can provide up to 100% protection.
By contrast, there is a far greater chance of staff wearing standard issue surgical masks catching the virus...

...these masks are relatively flimsy and loose-fitting and are not meant to screen out infectious aerosols - tiny virus particles that can linger in the air and are now widely accepted as a source of coronavirus infection.
The study found that staff caring for Covid patients on "red" wards faced a risk that was up to 47 times higher than those on "green" or non-Covid wards.

In the weeks following this move, the rate of infections among healthcare workers on red wards dropped spectacularly, quickly falling to the level experienced by staff on green wards where there were no Covid patients.
Basically, a standard mask doesn't offer much - if any - protection (even if worn correctly, which very few people seem to), whereas an FFP3 mask provides almost 100% protection to the wearer.

Therefore, there is no need for any controversy: those who wish to be protected by a mask can choose to wear an FFP3, and they no longer need to care what other people are or aren't wearing.

Problem solved!
 
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,439
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
One advantage I had in the cold spell in the winter was even if you were wearing one of the standard blue masks that were sold everywhere, it seemed to keep the cold air out of your lungs. I am sure there are those "in the know" who can explain why this was the case.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,284
Location
West of Andover
Have the RMT made any statement that would reflect their worries over the non-wearing of masks on trains where their members could be seen to be open to infection? Have that union issued any guidance concerning on-train staff wearing masks?

One of the Eagle twins in the Labour party (I never know which one they are), according to one of my neighbours who saw her on television, when she was saying she was worried over bus drivers and others being affected by non-wearing of masks. If anyone on this website saw it, can they provide a link, please.

Give it time for them to generate a press release demanding face coverings remain in place on trains/buses to protect their hard working brothers & sisters from harm etc.

It might mean some guards will return to being back cab dwellers, only popping out to do the doors and not having much in the way of interaction with the passengers, probably a return to blocking off most of the rear coach on the CAF units due to the door control panels.

------------

Personally it's good news that masks will become optional, I might still pack one in my bag to wear if the trains are busy, but when the train is lightly loaded that I'm the only passenger in that coach (or someone else is at the opposite end) then I won't wear.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,499
Just to clarify, specifically for Yorkie’s benefit, at no time have I said that I’m in favour of prolonged restriction of our society. What I actually said was

I would be a lot more comfortable with today’s announcement if they’d actually waited until most adults have had their second vaccination. I’m mid way between having my first and getting my second in mid-August, by which point we’ll have been ‘free’ for nearly a month and there will be plenty of Covid circulating - fine for the older groups who are long vaccinated - not so fine for my age group.

I defined my comfort level, nothing more. I don’t see anything in the scientific data that indicates 19th July 2021 as a specifically appropriate / significant date for opening up our collective immune systems to the virus. If one was actually following the science, you’d identify the date at which the adult population is fully vaccinated, which will be late August. As it stands, more than a few people in the sub-40 age group are going to be faced with significant risks associated with acquiring Covid - be it specific issues such as cancer, immune deficiencies, chronic asthma or a combination of conditions, which, taken together, create a statistically increased risk.
(This is one of the ways in which the shielding criteria failed - if you have several conditions all of which are just below the ‘high risk’ category, taken together they add up to a severe risk without your being classified as such.)
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
6,151
Location
Surrey
Yes that was a spectacular own goal. Public transport will pick up more once the roads grind to a halt. The Euston Road was at a complete standstill the other day so it's already happening in some places. The down side is that some places, e.g. Cardiff, have converted bus lanes into cycle lanes so now the buses will be stuck in the traffic jams too.
Railways must respond quickly if demands picks up quickly as its not acceptable to have crammed trains when the full timetable isn't running or short formed trains although im sure passengers will soon take to social media to embarrass operators into responding.
 

102 fan

Member
Joined
14 May 2007
Messages
769
Not only is NI a few years behind everywhere else as regards LGB and abortion matters, it also seems we're roughly about last August Covid wise as regards restrictions.

Some people here are going to abandon their masks on the 19th of July as well, more of it I say.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,909
Location
Yorkshire
Just to clarify, specifically for Yorkie’s benefit, at no time have I said that I’m in favour of prolonged restriction of our society. What I actually said was



I defined my comfort level, nothing more.
Thanks for clarifying. I'm glad, if pleasantly surprised, that you are in favour of the easing of restrictions, as I've never before known someone express favour of something by stating they are uncomfortable with it, but there is a first time for everything! :D

I don’t see anything in the scientific data that indicates 19th July 2021 as a specifically appropriate / significant date for opening up our collective immune systems to the virus. If one was actually following the science, you’d identify the date at which the adult population is fully vaccinated, which will be late August.
How would that be following science? Would this science include the effect on mental health impacts for millions of people having their summers ruined and no return for their livelhoods? Mental health is inalienable from physical health

As it stands, more than a few people in the sub-40 age group are going to be faced with significant risks associated with acquiring Covid
People in this age group overwhelmingly have very minimal risks associated with this virus; of the 36% of adults who've not yet had two doses, more than half have still been vaccinated with a single dose, which brings down the risk of severe illness massively (and that's before you consider our innate immunity and the proportion of people with naturally acquired adaptive immunity)

- be it specific issues such as cancer, immune deficiencies, chronic asthma or a combination of conditions, which, taken together, create a statistically increased risk.
Those people have been eligible for vaccination for a long time now. You are really scraping the barrel there.

(This is one of the ways in which the shielding criteria failed - if you have several conditions all of which are just below the ‘high risk’ category, taken together they add up to a severe risk without your being classified as such.)
Those in an 'at risk' group (not necessarily 'high risk') have been double vaccinated for quite some time now. You can scrape the barrel and find some examples of people who narrowly missed out if you want to give any, but any such example (which is still not forthcoming in any detail) would be an absolutely miniscule number of people, all of whom would have been eligible for at least one jab by 19th July anyway.
 

westv

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2013
Messages
4,217
I'm surprised nobody has started a "will you still wear a mask?" poll. :D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top