Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[geoffk]

According to the BBC website today, England will move on 19th July into a period without legal restrictions where the public will have to exercise "personal responsibility" including on face masks, the housing secretary has said. Robert Jenrick told the BBC's Andrew Marr that people would "come to different conclusions" over masks, but he trusted people "to exercise good judgment".

He told Sky News he would choose not to wear a face mask.

Covid-19: Masks will become personal choice, says Robert Jenrick

Robert Jenrick says mask laws in England could go but Scotland says there will be an "ongoing need".

www.bbc.co.uk

England will move into a period without legal restrictions where the public will have to exercise "personal responsibility" including on face masks, the housing secretary has said.
Robert Jenrick told the BBC's Andrew Marr people would "come to different conclusions" over masks, but he trusted people "to exercise good judgement".
All legal restrictions are expected to be lifted in England on 19 July.

Would such a move by Government bring about a change of policy by transport operators, restaurants and pubs, theatres and other indoor venues, or will they still try to insist on masks and social distancing? Just staying with transport, do we expect train companies to make mask-wearing voluntary, make all train seats available and remove compulsory seat reservation where it has been introduced?

 

[Dent]

According to the BBC website today, England will move on 19th July into a period without legal restrictions where the public will have to exercise "personal responsibility" including on face masks, the housing secretary has said. Robert Jenrick told the BBC's Andrew Marr that people would "come to different conclusions" over masks, but he trusted people "to exercise good judgment".

That's a rather concerning change from the 19th July being the final end of all restrictions to just being the start of "a period" without legal restrictions. This endless moving of the goalposts desperately needs to stop.

 

[big_rig]

Brilliant news. Sajid Javid has been very strong in the press too - unlike the serial liar Hancock I actually believe him when he says we need to learn to live with it.

 

[3rd rail land]

According to the BBC website today, England will move on 19th July into a period without legal restrictions where the public will have to exercise "personal responsibility" including on face masks, the housing secretary has said. Robert Jenrick told the BBC's Andrew Marr that people would "come to different conclusions" over masks, but he trusted people "to exercise good judgment".

He told Sky News he would choose not to wear a face mask.

Would such a move by Government bring about a change of policy by transport operators, restaurants and pubs, theatres and other indoor venues, or will they still try to insist on masks and social distancing? Just staying with transport, do we expect train companies to make mask-wearing voluntary, make all train seats available and remove compulsory seat reservation where it has been introduced?

I do wonder if TOCs will try and enforce face masks & distancing even if they are not required, which will only lead to arguments between passengers and staff. I can't see hospitality businesses doing this as one can just take their custom elsewhere to a venue not insisting on distancing/masks etc.. With railways if I need to take a train from A to B I have to use the TOC that serves that route with the only alternative being to travel by car which won't be viable in all situations.

Personally I won't be warning a mask from 19th July onwards if it is not legally required regardless of whether TOCs and other businesses try and persuade me to wear one.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The problem is also the bit about people 'coming to different conclusions' about masks.

Seems pretty obvious that there will be those who want to remain very cautious - and expect others to do the same in their presence, through to those throwing caution to the wind and expecting everyone else to accept that.

'Careful' and 'careless' hours in the supermarket?

Personally I can take everybody being maskless in a quiet supermarket, but don't fancy several people breathing all over me for lengthy periods on a packed 'face into armpit' tube journey. Whether the science backs up that emotional position is, regarding masks in non-clinical settings, still not clear after 12 months. Perhaps Mr Hancock can concentrate on maturing the "emerging evidence" on masks now that he has time on his hands.

As we no longer do sensible middle ground in this country, just polarisation of opinion and behaviour, I fear lots of disputes going forwards. Many of which will require the intervention of third parties such as guards, supermarket workers etc.

 

[big_rig]

The problem is also the bit about people 'coming to different conclusions' about masks.

Seems pretty obvious that there will be those who want to remain very cautious - and expect others to do the same in their presence, through to those throwing caution to the wind and expecting everyone else to accept that.

'Careful' and 'careless' hours in the supermarket?

Personally I can take everybody being maskless in a quiet supermarket, but don't fancy several people breathing all over me for lengthy periods on a packed 'face into armpit' tube journey. Whether the science backs up that emotional position is, regarding masks in non-clinical settings, still not clear after 12 months. Perhaps Mr Hancock can concentrate on maturing the "emerging evidence" on masks now that he has time on his hands.

As we no longer do sensible middle ground in this country, just polarisation of opinion and behaviour, I fear lots of disputes going forwards. Many of which will require the intervention of third parties such as guards, supermarket workers etc.

Feel free to wear a mask which filters the air around you if you must, instead of forcing your desires on everyone around you. It needs to be tightly fitted enough to bruise your face. End of story And don’t worry about conflicts. There will be about as many people wearing the things as there were the day before they were made mandatory - next to none.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Feel free to wear a mask which filters the air around you if you must, instead of forcing your desires on everyone around you. It needs to be tightly fitted enough to bruise your face. End of story And don’t worry about conflicts. There will be about as many people wearing the things as there were the day before they were made mandatory - next to none.

I don't think you fully read and fully understood my post did you?

 

[778]

Really want to believe this will happen, but I am worried that the government will change thier minds at the last minute. Independant sage and zero covid supporters are going to scream like hell for the next 2 weeks.

 

[Ianno87]

The problem is also the bit about people 'coming to different conclusions' about masks.

Seems pretty obvious that there will be those who want to remain very cautious - and expect others to do the same in their presence, through to those throwing caution to the wind and expecting everyone else to accept that.

'Careful' and 'careless' hours in the supermarket?

Personally I can take everybody being maskless in a quiet supermarket, but don't fancy several people breathing all over me for lengthy periods on a packed 'face into armpit' tube journey. Whether the science backs up that emotional position is, regarding masks in non-clinical settings, still not clear after 12 months. Perhaps Mr Hancock can concentrate on maturing the "emerging evidence" on masks now that he has time on his hands.

As we no longer do sensible middle ground in this country, just polarisation of opinion and behaviour, I fear lots of disputes going forwards. Many of which will require the intervention of third parties such as guards, supermarket workers etc.

Yes - it really does need an application of common sense. There's clearly more benefit of wearing a mask on a busy train than if there are only one or two people in the carriage. Even if its only for the reassurance of others.

And don’t worry about conflicts. There will be about as many people wearing the things as there were the day before they were made mandatory - next to none.

Prepare to be very seriously disappointed.

 

[big_rig]

I don't think you fully read and fully understood my post did you?

Oh, I read and understood it. If you are afraid of people ‘breathing all over you’ on the tube, wear a N95 mask pulled so tight on your face it bruises it (they don’t work otherwise). Any fears of public conflict are also unfounded as the number of people with your view will be a rounding error, as they were the day before masks were introduced. It is time to take personal responsibility as the government says. The dial has shifted and you can’t force 100% of people to virtue signal so you ‘feel safe’ - it’s on you to take remedial action.

Yes - it really does need an application of common sense. There's clearly more benefit of wearing a mask on a busy train than if there are only one or two people in the carriage. Even if its only for the reassurance of others.



Prepare to be very seriously disappointed.

How much conflict was there the day before masks were introduced? Zero. Why do you think there will be now that vaccines have been offered to literally every single adult in the country? I’m afraid it’s you who needs to prepare for disappointment. Buy and properly fit an N95 mask The time for forcing people to do anything for ‘reassurance of others’ is over!

I am very happy with what Sajid Javid has to say. It’s very clear he means back to normal when he says it - none of this pussyfooting round, ‘being careful’, ‘even if it just reassures others’ stuff, but for all intents and purposes forgetting that this virus exists, as we have always done for the flu beyond getting a vaccine if you need to once a year. There are bigger things in life to focus on.

 

[MikeWM]

Obviously very good news if it turns out to happen. Finally!

A short period of celebration will be in order.

However, there is still much to be done. There remains the attitude that all these measures were both effective and justified, when in reality they were neither. And while that attitude prevails, there is every likelihood they will return in the future (whether this winter or the next time something potentially nasty comes along). So unfortunately it isn't enough for those of us who have opposed all of this all along to stop now, we still have an argument to win.

Plus there will still be various things that will remain (restrictions on international travel being the obvious one, but also some elements of track-and-trace for example) so we're not quite back to 2019 territory yet.

 

[big_rig]

Obviously very good news if it turns out to happen. Finally!

A short period of celebration will be in order.

However, there is still much to be done. There remains the attitude that all these measures were both effective and justified, when in reality they were neither. And while that attitude prevails, there is every likelihood they will return in the future (whether this winter or the next time something potentially nasty comes along). So unfortunately it isn't enough for those of us who have opposed all of this all along to stop now, we still have an argument to win.

Plus there will still be various things that will remain (restrictions on international travel being the obvious one, but also some elements of track-and-trace for example) so we're not quite back to 2019 territory yet.

There is still much to do, but Javid seems like the man to take it on! I think we will have a great summer and really do think with the vaccines there won’t be much interest in winter madness. I can’t access the full story but the headline from the telegraph below was promising:

Sajid Javid: World leaders have acted like panicked shoppers hoarding lavatory paper

Health Secretary’s comments, made in a research paper, accuse governments of ‘herd behaviour’ in the face of Covid pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

Sajid Javid: World leaders have acted like panicked shoppers hoarding lavatory paper​

Health Secretary’s comments, made in a research paper, accuse governments of ‘herd behaviour’ in the face of Covid pandemic

 

[Ianno87]

How much conflict was there the day before masks were introduced? Zero.

People are now far more used to them. They're just part of day to day life now. To most people, they're simply not a big deal (even if they are to you or to other posters on the forum)

Why do you think there will be now that vaccines have been offered to literally every single adult in the country? I’m afraid it’s you who needs to prepare for disappointment. Buy and properly fit an N95 mask The time for forcing people to do anything for ‘reassurance of others’ is over!

Read my post properly. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything after 19th July. But there is clearly a bit of judgement to be applied on an individual basis


But people will voluntarily carry on wearing them for some time to come, even if in slowly diminishing numbers. They are not going to evaporate from existence on 19th July, no matter how much you might want them to.

 

[Domh245]

There is still much to do, but Javid seems like the man to take it on! I think we will have a great summer and really do think with the vaccines there won’t be much interest in winter madness. I can’t access the full story but the headline from the telegraph below was promising:

Sajid Javid: World leaders have acted like panicked shoppers hoarding lavatory paper

Health Secretary’s comments, made in a research paper, accuse governments of ‘herd behaviour’ in the face of Covid pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

Sajid Javid: World leaders have acted like panicked shoppers hoarding lavatory paper​

Health Secretary’s comments, made in a research paper, accuse governments of ‘herd behaviour’ in the face of Covid pandemic

There definitely do seem to have been elements of "groupthink" evidenced throughout the pandemic by various world leaders and decision makers. It's nice to see it being challenged

 

[big_rig]

People are now far more used to them. They're just part of day to day life now. To most people, they're simply not a big deal (even if they are to you or to other posters on the forum)




Read my post properly. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything after 19th July. But there is clearly a bit of judgement to be applied on an individual basis


But people will voluntarily carry on wearing them for some time to come, even if in slowly diminishing numbers. They are not going to evaporate from existence on 19th July, no matter how much you might want them to.

Your post was talking about wearing masks on a train ‘even if only for the reassurance of others.’ If you want to do that go for it. Nobody else will be under any law to do so, just as they weren’t up until the day they were made mandatory by law. I will be glad not to be forced to do things I don’t want to ‘to reassure others’ and I think it will be the extreme minority position to choose to do so, as it was the day before the law came into force.
Let’s see who is right in a month or so. Just be warned that the dial has shifted and that there will be no more forcing people to do anything by threat of punishment. We will see how virtuous people are when that has gone!!

 

[Ianno87]

Your post was talking about wearing masks on a train ‘even if only for the reassurance of others.’ If you want to do that go for it. Nobody else will be under any law to do so, just as they weren’t up until the day they were made mandatory by law. I will be glad not to be forced to do things I don’t want to ‘to reassure others’ and I think it will be the extreme minority position to choose to do so, as it was the day before the law came into force.

Yes, and that will be my own choice. Personally I'm getting tired of mask wearing, but I've done it for so long I might as well carry on a bit longer.

Let’s see who is right in a month or so. Just be warned that the dial has shifted and that there will be no more forcing people to do anything by threat of punishment. We will see how virtuous people are when that has gone!!

There hasn't been any real enforcement of punishment of non-mask wearing for quite some time now anyway.

Then when you see people (not me) in their own gardens wearing masks, or when driving their own car, it tells you how so many people are just prepared to shrug their shoulders and carry on, and are simply not bothered.

 

[MikeWM]

There is still much to do, but Javid seems like the man to take it on!

He's certainly making all the right noises to start with, yes! Long may it continue.

People are now far more used to them. They're just part of day to day life now. To most people, they're simply not a big deal (even if they are to you or to other posters on the forum)

But they are a big deal to many. For those who don't have the confidence to claim exemption, or the hard-of-hearing, or developing children (see the results of the 'still face' experiment), or those with Aspergers who need to see faces in order to judge the reaction of people, among others, they really are a big deal, and severely impact on their ability to interact with society.

But people will voluntarily carry on wearing them for some time to come, even if in slowly diminishing numbers. They are not going to evaporate from existence on 19th July, no matter how much you might want them to.

Well, sadly yes I agree. Given there has been a concerted campaign (why, you may ask [1]) for over a year to persuade people that they are useful, when they are very much nothing of the sort, then of course some people will continue to do so, for a while at least.


[1] Recall how this started last year - with a change in direction from the WHO that was said to be politically (rather than medically) motivated, and an appallingly poor paper from the Royal Society that drew conclusions that has no basis in the evidence presented in that same paper.

 

[edwin_m]

Wearing a mask is mostly about protecting others, so suggesting it's a matter of personal choice betrays a deep misunderstanding. It's more like smoking, considered a matter of personal choice in private settings but not in public indoor settings, because of the effect it has on other people. There may be evidence to relax mask wearing and social distancing in some situations, but it should be for everyone to follow the same set of guidelines. This might include, for example, vaccinated people not needing to wear masks as they're unlikely to spread the virus - but only if there's evidence to say so (which there may be, as the USA allows this).

The critical metric for abandoning restrictions is the number of Covid hospital admissions. This is separate from the information more widely available on number of Covid patients in hospital, which is also affected by previous admissions and how long they remain. Both can be found on the link below.

I'd say the number of admissions has to be decreasing or at least level before measures can be relaxed, otherwise it's a reasonable expectation that the increase will continue and accelerate with fewer restrictions, so there's no proof that vaccines have sufficiently broken the link between cases and admissions. That might not matter if the government was prepared to re-impose restrictions if the numbers threatened the NHS, but there is a commitment to relaxation being irreversible and therefore a significant risk of running back into the danger area especially going into the autumn. The government has form on this.

At present it looks like admissions are increasing gradually and have ticked up further in the last few days. So in my book there's not sufficient grounds to relax measures on the 19th. I'm also concerned that Javid came out in favour of relaxation on his first or second day in a job he wasn't expecting to get, so it's highly unlikely that he will have had time to read himself in, consult and weigh the evidence properly.

Healthcare in the UK | Coronavirus in the UK (data.gov.uk)

Daily and cumulative numbers of COVID-19 patients admitted to hospital.

 

[Ianno87]

But they are a big deal to many. For those who don't have the confidence to claim exemption, or the hard-of-hearing, or developing children (see the results of the 'still face' experiment), or those with Aspergers who need to see faces in order to judge the reaction of people, among others, they really are a big deal, and severely impact on their ability to interact with society.

Yes. And I've never claimed there aren't negative consequences of masks on some people.

(Side note: As a parent of a 3 and 4 year old, their teachers at educational settings don't wear masks during during class time, and my only prolonged time wearing masks with them is when on public transport, so that's not a significant issue)

(Side note 2: My wife has Asperger's and is very pro-mask)

 

[big_rig]

Yes, and that will be my own choice. Personally I'm getting tired of mask wearing, but I've done it for so long I might as well carry on a bit longer.





There hasn't been any real enforcement of punishment of non-mask wearing for quite some time now anyway.

Then when you see people (not me) in their own gardens wearing masks, or when driving their own car, it tells you how so many people are just prepared to shrug their shoulders and carry on, and are simply not bothered.

Anybody wearing a mask in their car or garden is not doing so because they ‘aren’t bothered.’ They’re doing so out of absolute fear. On a small number of occasions I have worn a mask whilst walking between stores nearby with my hands full, as I am ‘not bothered’ in that scenario. Anyway, give it a few weeks and we’ll see. I put money on the ‘they wear them in Asia so I will too, it’s polite’ lot not lasting very long in their virtue signalling.

 

[Ianno87]

Anybody wearing a mask in their car or garden is not doing so because they ‘aren’t bothered.’ They’re doing so out of absolute fear. On a small number of occasions I have worn a mask whilst walking between stores nearby with my hands full, as I am ‘not bothered’ in that scenario. Anyway, give it a few weeks and we’ll see. I put money on the ‘they wear them in Asia so I will too, it’s polite’ lot not lasting very long in their virtue signalling.

You can add plenty of people in Cambridge cycling wearing them (not just the odd one or two "fearful" people, but maybe 20-25% of cyclists I see). Personally I've no idea how people do it - I'd be passing out, as I once found out when I put one on too quickly after pulling up!

 

[778]

Wearing a mask is mostly about protecting others, so suggesting it's a matter of personal choice betrays a deep misunderstanding. It's more like smoking, considered a matter of personal choice in private settings but not in public indoor settings, because of the effect it has on other people. There may be evidence to relax mask wearing and social distancing in some situations, but it should be for everyone to follow the same set of guidelines. This might include, for example, vaccinated people not needing to wear masks as they're unlikely to spread the virus - but only if there's evidence to say so (which there may be, as the USA allows this).

The critical metric for abandoning restrictions is the number of Covid hospital admissions. This is separate from the information more widely available on number of Covid patients in hospital, which is also affected by previous admissions and how long they remain. Both can be found on the link below.

I'd say the number of admissions has to be decreasing or at least level before measures can be relaxed, otherwise it's a reasonable expectation that the increase will continue and accelerate with fewer restrictions, so there's no proof that vaccines have sufficiently broken the link between cases and admissions. That might not matter if the government was prepared to re-impose restrictions if the numbers threatened the NHS, but there is a commitment to relaxation being irreversible and therefore a significant risk of running back into the danger area especially going into the autumn. The government has form on this.

At present it looks like admissions are increasing gradually and have ticked up further in the last few days. So in my book there's not sufficient grounds to relax measures on the 19th. I'm also concerned that Javid came out in favour of relaxation on his first or second day in a job he wasn't expecting to get, so it's highly unlikely that he will have had time to read himself in, consult and weigh the evidence properly.

Healthcare in the UK | Coronavirus in the UK (data.gov.uk)

I understand what you are saying about masks protecting others, but after everyone has had the chance to get the vaccine (2 doses), I don't think it is fair that people should be forced to wear masks to protect people who refuse vaccination. You would be protecting people who would not want to be protected.

 

[big_rig]

You can add plenty of people in Cambridge cycling wearing them (not just the odd one or two "fearful" people, but maybe 20-25% of cyclists I see). Personally I've no idea how people do it - I'd be passing out, as I once found out when I put one on too quickly after pulling up!

Who knows! Maybe they are being very diligent unlike the rest of us and taking the effort not to scrunch them into their pockets (along with hand sanitising before and after touching the mask every single time - I genuinely don’t think I’ve ever seen a single person do this). In any case will be looking forward to some longer distance rail journeys I’ve been putting off once the requirement is gone

 

[Paul Jones 88]

No more masks for me and on the first weekend after I'm getting a first-class ticket to Norwich because I have never been and I'd like to see what the new trains are like.

 

[LAX54]

Really want to believe this will happen, but I am worried that the government will change thier minds at the last minute. Independant sage and zero covid supporters are going to scream like hell for the next 2 weeks.

Did see they were going to recommend that some things continue, like hand washing / sanitising after coming out of a shop or touching an ATM/Door etc, but then the other half has done that for as long as I can remember !

 

[yorksrob]

Wearing a mask is mostly about protecting others, so suggesting it's a matter of personal choice betrays a deep misunderstanding. It's more like smoking, considered a matter of personal choice in private settings but not in public indoor settings, because of the effect it has on other people. There may be evidence to relax mask wearing and social distancing in some situations, but it should be for everyone to follow the same set of guidelines. This might include, for example, vaccinated people not needing to wear masks as they're unlikely to spread the virus - but only if there's evidence to say so (which there may be, as the USA allows this).

The critical metric for abandoning restrictions is the number of Covid hospital admissions. This is separate from the information more widely available on number of Covid patients in hospital, which is also affected by previous admissions and how long they remain. Both can be found on the link below.

I'd say the number of admissions has to be decreasing or at least level before measures can be relaxed, otherwise it's a reasonable expectation that the increase will continue and accelerate with fewer restrictions, so there's no proof that vaccines have sufficiently broken the link between cases and admissions. That might not matter if the government was prepared to re-impose restrictions if the numbers threatened the NHS, but there is a commitment to relaxation being irreversible and therefore a significant risk of running back into the danger area especially going into the autumn. The government has form on this.

At present it looks like admissions are increasing gradually and have ticked up further in the last few days. So in my book there's not sufficient grounds to relax measures on the 19th. I'm also concerned that Javid came out in favour of relaxation on his first or second day in a job he wasn't expecting to get, so it's highly unlikely that he will have had time to read himself in, consult and weigh the evidence properly.

Healthcare in the UK | Coronavirus in the UK (data.gov.uk)

You've got that the wrong way round.

We should be requiring evidence that something actually works before demanding it, rather than assuming it does and requiring evidence that it doesn't before removing it. Particularly where a perfectly natural activity (such as breathing) is concerned.

This should always have been the same for lockdown restrictions (although if they've any sense they won't even bother considering re-imposing them again this winter).

Did see they were going to recommend that some things continue, like hand washing / sanitising after coming out of a shop or touching an ATM/Door etc, but then the other half has done that for as long as I can remember !

Funnily enough, I will continue doing those anyway !

 

[MikeWM]

Yes. And I've never claimed there aren't negative consequences of masks on some people.

Therefore we should have a high bar before introducing such a measure. 'It makes people feel better' (because they've been subject to incessant propaganda for over a year) isn't remotely good enough when it has such an impact on people's lives, and cohesion of society as a whole.

(Side note: As a parent of a 3 and 4 year old, their teachers at educational settings don't wear masks during during class time, and my only prolonged time wearing masks with them is when on public transport, so that's not a significant issue)

Agreed in that case - though still younger children will have spent a significant proportion of their lives now seeing people (other than their family) masked in many situation. I'm not at all convinced that is good for their healthy development.

(Side note 2: My wife has Asperger's and is very pro-mask)

Of course not everyone in any particular category feels the same, and we shouldn't assume they do.

 

[LAX54]

Funnily enough, I will continue doing those anyway !

I never used to to, but started the sanitising thing after using an ATM or touching a shop door etc, about 3 years ago, just copying the wife really !

 

[westv]

I'll miss the full time working from home as I've saved a packet but, if it means getting back to normality, I can't say no.

Edit: Assuming the masks rules are dropped, I wonder if it's worth having a poll as to people's likely attitude to those post relaxation?

 

[greyman42]

As we no longer do sensible middle ground in this country, just polarisation of opinion and behaviour, I fear lots of disputes going forwards. Many of which will require the intervention of third parties such as guards, supermarket workers etc.

I do not wear masks on trains or in supermarkets and i have not experienced any disputes, and it is not as if i am 6 foot 6 and 18 stone.